Balance: Chosen of Light?

[Myndrunner]

Could it be possible that there are those Chosen by the Creator?  Men and women who equal the Forsaken in power, yet exist to protect the world from the Dark One?  Maybe Birgitte and Gaidal Cain? 

 

Just some thoughts...now, back to fat kid with a lightsaber on YouTube....

 

-Mynd

[Jehaine]

You mean like Mat and Perrin (in their own way), Rand, Nynaeve and a bunch of other people?

 

...Yeah, i do ^^;

[OsaroLJ]

Yes...but indirectly, I think. I think the wheel matches whatever the DO might do. And, as u've noticed, the Wheel has matched the Forsaken in terms of Power. In this age, we have Male channelers that match or surpass the Forsaken in power (Rand, Taim, and Logain, Narishma with Calandor). We have Dreamers to match Moghe/Lanfear (Perrin and Egwene). We have Alivia who is arguably the strongest Female fighter in history matching up with Cyndane.

 

It's interesting that, at the beginning of the series, we thought that the DO had all the advantages in the fight. Now it seems like the Light has more than a fighting chance. They have all the Angreal and Sa'angreal as well.

 

Anyways, back to the topic, the light has "Chosen" as well but these people (except the Dragon) arent recycled like the Forsaken

[Myndrunner]

It almost seems that things are swinging in the Light's favor.  Although the seals have become pretty much play-doh and the Dark One is all but free, Rand has done a pretty good job (somewhat by accident) at rallying the forces of light to his cause. 

 

The Forsaken have themselves and a bunch of smelly trollocs.  Sure, a couple of them have probably infiltrated high positions in Rand's alliance; but after 12 books..... Team Dragon 12 - Dark One 0. 

 

Very interesting that four of the eight major influences to Rand are from his home town.  Mat and Perrin are obvious, but in a way Egwene and Nynaeve are almost as closely tied to the Dragon that one could argue them being ta'veren as well.  Nynaeve has been intrical to the defeat of Ravin and the cleansing of saiden. 

 

If one qualifies as a Chosen/Forsaken by being able to wield the power, then only Egwene, Nynaeve, Rand, Elayne, Aviendrha, Logaine, and Taim would I call Chosen of the Light.  The last one there, very cautiously. 

 

If one could be considered Chosen without having the ability to channel, but simply having extraordinary powers, then we pretty much have an even match up...

 

Rand - The Dark One

Mat - Ishamel

Perrin - Sammael

Egwene - Graendel

Elayne - Moghedien

Nynaeve - Semmirige

Min - Masanna

Logaine - Demandred

Tuon - Cyndane

Narishma - Aran'Gar

 

Should be a pretty interesting Battle Royale!

 

 

[aevogt]

The creator created the world and imprisoned the DO.  HE created the wheel to weave the pattern and since then has had a "hands off" approach to his work.  The Pattern, chooses out Ta'veren to see the proper order to the warp and woof of the weave.  SO in that light, ta'veren are the "Chosen" of the pattern.

 

What I've always questioned is if the pattern is neither good nor evil, as we are told by no wiser a woman that Moraine, Why aren't there Shadow Ta'veren?

 

That's a hypothetical question. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

It may have been Maj that pointed it out.

 

The Age Lace can drift too far toward the "good" as well.  When that happens, the Wheel does spin out "bad" taveren.

[Myndrunner]

Are Chosen/Forsaken Shadow Tavs?

[Corbett]

The reason we dont hear of any shadow ta'veren are because the darkone has been trying to tip the scales of good and evil in his favor so the pattern has to spin out good ta'veren to  aintain the balance.

[Myndrunner]

Ah-So! :D  Perhaps this is the very reason the Creator sealed the Dark One instead of killing him.  Without the Dark One....the Pattern would spit out evil Ta'veren.  The Wheel of Time is all about balance.

 

-[glow=red,2,300]Myndrunner[/glow]

[Corbett]

The reason the creator sealed the dark one away is becasue the dark one doesnt play buy the same rules that he does. Unlke the creator the dark one plays avery activel role in trying ti influence the world to his will. Because the creator refused to do this he had to seal the dark one away as means of keeping the balance and let the pattern balance its self out on its own. The reason he didnt kill the dark one is because he saw the need for this balance and had built it into the pattern. if he had killed the dark one then the pattern would have spun one out to match the creator and that would have created all sorts of problems.

[Luckers]

On the original question, i very much doubt it. We don't know much about the Creator, but we do know that he won't, or can't get involved with this fight. All of the figures and their roles are functions of the Wheel, and an attempt not so much to fight the Dark One, but rather merely to stop him from causing an alteration in the direction of the Age Lace.

 

Here is an old post of mine about what we know of the Creator, in case your interested.

 

 

 

Ok, so i created this thread out of a discussion that is ongoing in the "Who says there's going to be a bloody body swap?!?!?!" thread. I basically stems around a question asked by Robert. Specifically, this question.

Quote

Yeah, the same catechism also says that the Creator bound all the Forsaken with the Dark One at the moment of creation. It's factuality is a tad suspect.

 

As indicated by what?  I'm genuinely curious here ... what happens in the books that makes you suspect that the Creator isn't what he's acclaimed to be?

 

I responded to that interchange in the thread, if your curious. But i will be moving beyond it in this thread. Here, i will be looking at the following questions.

 

1. Are the statements in the text an accurate portrayal of the Creator?

2. What do we actually know of the Creator?

3. What is the Creator's stance on events in the books, and what are his intentions?

 

Are the statements in the text an accurate portrayal of the Creator?

 

The above quote from the body swap thread raises this issue clearly, to my mind. What we know of the Creator is mostly the function of superstition, and wherever we have been able to compare it verifiable facts within the rest of the books it has been proven completely wrong. Hell, the Dark One, the only living being that could possibly remember the Creator has never, to this date, mentioned him. Even when he falls into rants about his enemies, he has only ever refered to the Dragon--and him as his ancient nemises.

 

We are talking about a character in a text, a character whose nature, purpose or even reality we have no way of addressing or verifying... or even suggestively examining.

 

Concider every other of these beliefs as we've been exposed to them.

 

1. The Forsaken sealed in the Bore at the moment of Creation. False.

2. All Aes Sedai serve the Dark One, intentionally broke the world, and now seek to do it again. False.

3. The Dragon was the left-hand of the Dark One and intentionally broke the world on his behalf. False.

4. The Dragon shall be Reborn to bring about the end of the world for the Dark One. False.

 

They are superstitions. And like all superstitions they are based in fact. Yes, the Forsaken were bound, yes the Aes Sedai were the direct source of the breaking, yes the Dragon also had a direct hand in the breaking, and yes the Dragon Reborn will have a cataclysmic effect on the modern world. But these are all simplifications.

 

What makes me thing that the Creator is anything other than what he is acclaimed to be, Robert? The mere fact of the method of that claim.

 

What do we actually know of the Creator?

 

The Creator bears some similarity to the idea of the western godhood, which i suspect does cloud the issue. Try and step away from that for a moment, and take a look at what we actually know of the Creator.

 

1. Supposedly he made the Wheel of Time.

 

2. When he made the Wheel, he impisoned the Dark One--at least supposedly, in reality, based on descriptions of the wheel and reality, it appears to me more as if the Dark One were excluded from the circle of the wheel, not imprisoned. It might be better termed to say that the Dark One was exiled from the Wheel.

 

3. People feel that he has some form of ability to shelter them, or protect them, or influence their lives in a positive manner. This is not a belief structue, but rather whats known as a 'deisis' a pervasive spiritual or social 'feeling'. The best analogy would be in the way certain people feel about luck, or fate. It's not a religious ideology, as such, yet in some ways it is.

 

All three of these things we have by, at best, a billion-hand long source listing. Basically, these are the socialized beliefs that everyone believes simply because everyone believes them.

 

But what have we seen of the Creators actions? As the saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

 

1. We have the voice that spoke to Rand in tEotW. Maybe.

2. A total absense from all other events.

 

The second point is tainted by the fact that we may not be aware of his actions, yet we can state given the way he dealt with Rand that he can't pull strings in the sense of forcing or pushing people to do things without there knowledge. Else, why would he have revealed himself at that stage. So, if he has been influencing events, it must be at a pretty small level, or through direct interaction with a character whose interactions we have not been privy to (which i personally concider unlikely).

 

But what can we tell from what we do know of the Creator's actions?

 

What is the Creator's stance on events in the books, and what are his intentions?

 

The following is based essentially on the idea of looking at what we have witnessed of the Creator seperate of what we expect him to be (A judeo-christian god-like figure--and don't suggest that you don't have some mold of such in your mind, even i do, and im as athiest as they come). Given how little we know of the Creator, it is obviously very loose logic, and i acknowledge that.

 

Firstly, we have the obvious question, why has the Creator not involved himself in the war against the Dark One. To my mind, there are three plausible answers.

 

1. He wont. For whatever reason, he chooses to remain aloof.

2. He can't. He doesn't have the power to actually go toe to toe with the Dark One.

3. He doesn't care. Or else, he has his own cares, and doesn't have time to waste on the Earth.

 

He won't.

 

Argument one, that he won't involve himself, is certainly supported by the comments in the Eye of the World, if you accept them as coming from the Creator. Or is it? (Muahaha?)

 

If he could act, but chooses not to, then why does he in fact involve himself? It certainly suggests some form of vested interest in the outcome of the struggle between mankind and the Dark One. So what is that interest? Is it on humanities behalf? I rather doubt it--for one thing, the function of rebirth and the lack of any form of sin-system takes away any purpose for allowing people to handle their own fight against the Shadow.

 

By which I mean, this ain't the Christian God. Letting humanity deal with the Dark One cannot be a gesture in the function of free will, since the whole 'heaven', 'hell' goal system is out of the game. If he's willing to influence events at all by aiding Rand in that manner, then he's not doing the high minded 'god' thing.

 

At least, not to my mind. Still, its a possibility. But if that is the case, the whole 'Creator steps in at the last moment to save humanity' thing... its out. If he'd been going to do that, he would have done it already, and if he had the power to do that with impunity, and it had occured in previous turnings of the wheel, then the Dark One would know it was coming. A function of pointlessness.

 

But where is the suggestion that the Creator even has the power to slap the Dark One down?

 

He Can't.

 

Thie brings us to option number two; that the Creator can't step in because he doesn't have the power.

 

Once again, this isn't a God/Satan relationship. Or rather, if you want to suggest that it is, go find some evidence. Because there is nothing to suggest that the Creator is some benign being withholding his hand because of the memory of the love he once bore the Dark One. But what evidence is there?

 

1. The Imprisonment Factor.

 

So, the Creator imprisoned the Dark One, therefore he must be more powerful?

 

Thats fine and dandy, but is it a realistic judgement of the situation? The Dark One and the Creator could be exactly even in strength, and due to circumstance the Creator may have won. Hell, the Dark One may have even have been stronger. Concider Lan's fight with Ryne in New Spring. Ryne was better, but due to hubris he lost.

 

Furthermore, did the Creator actually imprison the Dark One in the sense of locking him up? The answer is more that probably no. The size of the cosmic reality that we deal with is simply too large. The Creator constructed a realm that was circular, and he constructed it with the Dark One outside the circle. There isn't even the requirement for a confrontation in that action--indeed, there is actually the suggestion of the desire to AVOID a confrontation. He built walls, not to keep something in, but to keep something out. Any implication of the power balance that can be established by the act of 'imprisoning' the Dark One sort of slids in the favour of the Dark One in that.

 

So, we have the implication of an avoidance system. Something that is then backed up by the following lack of open confrontation. Yet, if the Creator feels so scared of the Dark One, why doesn't he tale a very active hand in aiding the forces of the light--supplying them with intel, only not just once, like with Rand, but all the time. Sort of a 'psst! Dude, FYI, that girl that looks like Tuon... yeah, she's totally Semirhage'.

 

He Doesn't Care

 

Which brings us to option number three. The Creator doesn't care, or rather, he has other games to play.

 

So we have a history of non-involvement, but also the suggestion of non-interest. So maybe he just doesn't give two hoots about the game thats being played out again and again. Maybe he's moved on to bigger and better things, like writing his memoirs, buying a penis car, and getting an offensively young girlfriend.

 

But wait, that doesn't make sense. Because we saw him help Rand (maybe). And, if you believe the hype, he created this wheel with its complex system of self-fighting the Dark One, including hoarding souls in TAR to play hero, spitting out Ta'veren to save the day (and strike cutting figures in their shirtsleeves), providing people with visions of the future so they can compose the bad poetry that we name the Karetheon Cycle....

 

Holy untenable plot points batman, it just doesn't make sense! Or does it?

 

The reality is that what we see matches a being who is more interested than doing something else then eternally battling an insane hell god. He devises a self-sufficient system that protects itself from incursion, then hides, completely incircled by it. He shows no interest in the progression of that system--none of God's 'though must live rightously because i so care about all of my childrens wellbeing'--indeed, he only involves himself at the rare moments when things are looking bad.

 

Frankly i buy this last one. I don't think that the Creator feels overly threatened by the Dark One, but nor does he have enough power to simply sweep him aside.

 

 

 

 

There is a fourth option, by the by. In imprisoning the Dark One and creating the wheel, the Creator may have depleted himself so completely that he is little more than a memory, or a dream--the dream of a godlike being, sure, but nothing to get spiffed about. It might even have been his last resort.

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

Luckers, what about a fifth option? What if there's NO Creator at all, just the Wheel and the DO, acting as a sort of antirotation block?

 

and the CAPS Lock talk in the end of EotW could be the DO after all - it's one of the RAFO's, anyway - were it the Creator speaking, wouldn't it be CAPS italics?  ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Exactly which entity is speaking at Tarwin's Gap is one of the many mysteries of WoT.

 

I'd say it is the Creator simply because the DO has no sense of fairness or restraint.  If it could take part it would take part.

[Rahlian]

But so far eh have no evidence, especially at that point, or ever, that the DO can talk to people outside of the Pit. Im in favor of the Creator speaking to him. My main reason is because he ses Rand stumbling around, wasting the only source of unTainted Saidin that was supposed to be used to fight the Last Battle. So he says "It is not here." IT meaning the Bore. He then also has a line about he will not interfere. I dont have the book out in front of me so i cant quote it but thats basically the gist of it.

[Myndrunner]

What if the Creator and the DO are one in the same?  (dun-da-duuuun!!)

[Leopoled Boothe]

I think that in AMoL we will get a full explaination for the Creator's non-interventionist stance.  I think that Rand will die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul and that it will be his link with Moridin that allows him to ultimatly come back.  However, perhaps sometime before he makes it back to the land of the living for his untimate battle with Moridin, Rand might just meet and have a converstion with the Creator.

 

One thought that I've had it that perhaps the DO's imprisonment was not forced but rather part of a bargin.  Perhaps after the Creator created the world the DO became jealous of The Creator's creation and decided he wanted it for himself.  The Creator and DO fought each other to a stale mate and seeing that if the battle continued that they would ultimatly destroy each other and/or the world that they both desired they struck a bargin.  The DO agreed to be sealed away from the world by whatever restraints the Creator could devise if the Creator, himself, would also agree not to directly interfere with his own creation.  Knowing that the DO might one day break free of his restraints the Creator granted humanity access to the very power that turned the Wheel of Time so they would be able to defend themselves should the DO ever break free.

[Myndrunner]

What is Light without Shadow?  What is the Creator without the Dark One?  What is God without Donald Trump? What is Coke without Pepsi?

 

-Mynd

[Leopoled Boothe]

What is Light without Shadow?  What is the Creator without the Dark One?  What is God without Donald Trump? What is Coke without Pepsi?

 

-Mynd

 

Very, very bright.

A being with a very easy job.

Without an opportunity to get on "The Apprentice."

A Mononploy.

[Leopoled Boothe]

What if the Creator and the DO are one in the same?  (dun-da-duuuun!!)

 

Could be.  I've read a few theories that propose that creation, aka the age lace, itself is the DO's prison.  This is why time is circular, it has to be in order to hold the DO in.  So lets say the Creator decides he wants to create a universe.  He invents something called age lace and begins experimenting with it.  He finds that he can, infact, create a universe from this age lace, but the experiment goes arry and he ends up inadvertantly trapping himself within it.  Thus, the Creator sealed the DO in his prison at the moment of creation.  Now the Creator/DO wants to free himself and create a universe correctly next time thus the DO's desire to break free and recreate the world in his image.

 

So yup, could be one and the same.

[Luckers]

Luckers, what about a fifth option? What if there's NO Creator at all, just the Wheel and the DO, acting as a sort of antirotation block?

 

and the CAPS Lock talk in the end of EotW could be the DO after all - it's one of the RAFO's, anyway - were it the Creator speaking, wouldn't it be CAPS italics? 

 

It seems unlikely. The First Seal was not even broken at that stage, so far as we know--the manifest voice seems beyond the Dark One's capabilities.

 

 

[Rasta Ashaman]

I think that in AMoL we will get a full explaination for the Creator's non-interventionist stance.  I think that Rand will die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul and that it will be his link with Moridin that allows him to ultimatly come back.  However, perhaps sometime before he makes it back to the land of the living for his untimate battle with Moridin, Rand might just meet and have a converstion with the Creator.

That would be so Potteresque, yuck...

[Luckers]

Mmm. I don;t see it happening either. RJ is too vested in realism for that.

[Leopoled Boothe]

I think that in AMoL we will get a full explaination for the Creator's non-interventionist stance.  I think that Rand will die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul and that it will be his link with Moridin that allows him to ultimatly come back.  However, perhaps sometime before he makes it back to the land of the living for his untimate battle with Moridin, Rand might just meet and have a converstion with the Creator.

That would be so Potteresque, yuck...

 

Yes, I realize that it is very similar to what happened in "Harry Potter."  However, I had thought of this scinerio well before "Deathly Hallows" ever came out.  Of couse this kind of worries me b/c if it does go down this way we will have to put up with all the hard core Harry Potter fanboys accusing Robert Jordan and/or Brandon Sanderson of plagarism.  And of couse they will completely ignore the fact that "The Eye of the Word" came out a full seven years before "The Sorcerer's Stone" thus meaning that RJ almost certainly had the idea first.  It will be rather anoying.  However, one key difference will be that Rand and the Creator don't have the warm fuzzy relationship the Harry and Dumbledore had so I think this meeting will be much more confrontational than that in Harry Potter.  In fact I'd love to see a very pissed off Rand say something to the effect of "I just took down Shai'tan, and by damns I can take you down too."  Now that would be good readin'.

[Leopoled Boothe]

Mmm. I don;t see it happening either. RJ is too vested in realism for that.

 

Whatever that means.  C'mon now, Lukers, you've gotta give me more than that.  Please expand on this. 

[Luckers]

It means i don't see Rand having any big expositionary conversations with the Creator of All Existence during the Last Battle. RJ has in all things gone for the realistic in the way people deal with things... i just don't see it.