Open discussion with the Warders

[Lanthirrhos]

I Don't see anything like what any of Northie said. At the time tensions were high, and I(though this is the first I've said anything on it) still don't feel that it was right to go on with your Blademaster Program, but I feel no resentment as a member of the Infantry or as a Warder. And I certaintly see nothing then, or now, that resembles what Northie says in her post :) And how I feel about a Warder BM Program isn't importnat, I'll never take part in it, but you all went ahead with it anyways, and its so... (not mud slinging just a statement of my opinion) BORING, that it hardly resembles ours... :D no offense intended, its not for me :) others may like it, I just find the program dry... :-\

 

And this is more to Northie than anyone, no one said ANYTHING just because they could, and no one said anything to be arrogant, on either side... And I personally talk to a lot of people outside of the Band, about the Band. And I greet new members often enough on those boards, and many of these join. So they may know more than you think! So I scoff at your percentage (99%)! And I replace it with my own (31.23%)! :P :P :P

[Daetirion]

Ok quick disclaimer - These views are only my views and should not be taken in light of my rank as BG of Infantry. If there is to be an official regiment line (and i highly doubt that) it will come from Demon. This is just my two cents...

 

With regard to the BM problem. I have my differences with BOTH programmes - Band and Warders. I feel that whilst i don't mind all Org's (well, maybe not the Kin - Cat Crosses the Courtyard with a knitting needle anyone?) running their own BM programmes, they should at least be a similar level of difficulty/work to achieve.

 

Every Org already has someway to reward taking part above and beyond the call of duty, and i really don't care what form that takes, be it ribbons or celebratory cupcakes. However using a symbol that obviously and undeniably represents another orgainisation, which takes great pride in that symbol... I expect it just required a little more thought as to the symbol but the obvious thing to do is retract the ribbon and replace it with a more generic sign.

 

The delicate area we are trying to tiptoe around is what defines an Org, what can be directly attributed/patented to a single Org, and whether that Org has the right to defend it. All Org's are based on the same structure - a system of ranks and promotions, roll calls and a defined progression (and spam!). Now there can be imitations - for instance Banding and Bonding. Now i recognise that one is quite arguably an imitation of the other - however there are differences, and many people would recognise one as beyond the other.

 

Ok thats my little section (hopefully from a fairly unbias opinion being both Warder and Infantry). I echo Tay's sentiment about not wishing to see this escalate, although i obvioulsy can't threaten to lock it - maybe just spam the hell out of it?

 

 

[Lanthirrhos]

Yes, it'd just be nice if each org was a little unique from the others... Like not all having BM programs... or ribbons... The latter I could care less about, that is fairly universal, in any culture, military or not. And yes, i could sit here and debate why the BM program should have stayed just with the infantry... as I'm sure others could for the Warders... But when you ask why people get their tizzies in a wad over certain things the warders have done... there you go... ;) i think the general consensus would be 'go come up with an idea similar to someone elses already!' :P And that isn't saying that anyone did it intentionally, and certaintly not with the intent to cause problems :) just calling it how it is...

[DeathDealer]

hi all.  It is Deathdealer, aka Footman.  I'm the oldest Infantry member of the Band and did a stint as a warder for five seconds.  I can honestly say I was one of the key developers in the Infantry BM program.  I wasn't the first, but one of.  The infants got upset because we put alot of work into this, and some felt cheated tht others were using it.  That's about all I can say about other folk's feelings.  As to my own:  If somebody made a carbon copy of our BM testing then I would have gone through the roof!!  But that isn't the case!!  You guys made your own program.  I've heard that it is tough to get through, and that is great!!  I'd have a problem with an Org handing the title out like candy, too.  That isn't the case. 

 

I don't like the idea of a DM wide title.  If an Org wants one, they can have one!  If DM as a whole begins to tell Orgs how to run their BM program (Not saying it'll happen), people will get upset.  Ours won't change!  Warders don't want theirs to change.  So lets leave it at:  we have ours, you have yours and we like our own versions!

 

 

As for ribbons.  I have a ribbon with the Kuwait flag on it.  The US didn't conqure the country, but we have that flag on our ribbon.  I feel it shows respect for the country who's flag it is.  I can't say ribbons are a bad thing.  The Army has em, as does the Air Force, Marines, Navy, and Coast Guard!  works for me!  You guys enjoy em, and we'll enjoy ours

 

 

Now, lets have a brew, and whatever you guys drink at the warders, and we'll get tore up from the floor up!!

[Auld Manriva]

Uh ohhh.. 12th said scoff  :o .. Theres Big Trouble In Little China now Jack Burton..

 

I can't speak to the resentment issue. I can but I would have no grounds. That doesn't usually stop me though and won't in this case either.

 

Anarchy is the way to go. Open, pitched battle .... err.. discussion to the bloody end with plants dying from the excess copper from the lifeblood of all the corpses lying about. Then growing madly once more as spring comes and the dessicated carcasses of the fallen feed the worms whose castings create a rich loam for a grand harvest in late summer......... See Wind? Battle is good ecological management..... Lets get it ON!

 

On a more serious note .... I don't see how if some of us don't like your program that it really matters much. UNLESS as I have said and Footy has said we become required to do it in some standardized fashion. I too have a ribbon with Vietnams' colors on it. But not the banner itself, I dont really think the Kuwait Campaign had the flag but its colors. If the Invasion ribbon was white with a wide red bar in the center I would have no issue. But there is a Red Hand on a white field. Not that it makes a hill of beans. It's only a sore point and no matter to anyone who matters :)

 

[DeathDealer]

I stand before you to be behind you to beg pardon of a heinous oversight on my part.  I have incorrectly assumed to be the oldest of the elder Infants.  We all know what happens when you assume, right?!  Except it is just me, not you this time.  I beg forgiveness for the most vernerable of active Infants!  I bow before your elderly status 12th Regiment!

[Lanthirrhos]

Footy... *Sigh* You know the problem with the youth nowadays? They are YOUNG! :P

 

Take this impertanent lout Footy here... :P Just because I joined well... Well, let's just say I was a strapping young lad with a full head of hair, and Coruscant was a small town with a well, hehe doesn't mean he needs to point it out to everyone! >:(

 

Huh? What? Oh, I get it. Let's play with the old man's head, is it? He's half-senile, he'll forget you said anything! Wait uh, what was this about, anyway?

 

WHAT?! No staring at the old man. That's what the sign says, dammit! I'm old...I've earned the right to ramble dammit!

 

Bah! I don't want to talk about this anymore! My jaw aches! >:(

 

 

 

 

 

:P

[DeathDealer]

I really like the Star Wars refference.  That was very nice.

[Delenn]

insinuates that your folks captured a Banner of your opponent and now proudly wear it as an indicator of a victory......

 

So I have been keeping an eye on this thread and this is the first argument against the ribbon for the Band that has been a logical valid reason. Paet saw it this mornign and felt the same way. In addition I ran across a post from Tay asking Sham if he had joined the Band.. an extra bit of confusion that was unintended. So in the next round of ribbons which will be coming out shortly (we have a few ribbon events going right now) there will be a new Band ribbon. This was not meant to upset you guys just a simple non-confusing way of identifing the other participating Org.

 

[Auld Manriva]

Thank You Del... This is quick and dirty but sort of what I was suggesting. It's large and I dont know how it would hold small but your folks will likely do it better.

 

 

 

WW for Warder/Wolfie Alliance of course.Those would likely show better if larger in relation to background.

[Taymist]

Thanks Del, I'm aware that you created the ribbons for the Warders hun, which knowing you was done with nothing but the best intentions. :) I'm absolutely sure there was no intent on your part (or that of the Warders) to upset anyone. :)

 

The fact remains that Riva's comment was hardly the sole logical reason for our objection. If it was enough to make me ask Sham about it (as a member of Staff) then it was definitely enough to be confusing to any newbies. That in and of itself is an equally logical reason and was why Corki brought it up. :)

 

The confusion that was caused by it was obvious from the moment Corki lodged our concern (which he's told us he did) so it shouldn't really have taken this thread for something to be done. If, as you say, a new ribbon is going to be made (and I see Riva has offered you an alternative which looks lovely, thanks bro) then we extend our thanks for the consideration and we appreciate it being changed. :) It's a shame it took all this to get it done when the same offer could have been made to Corki in private when he first mentioned it and it would have been happily settled days ago.

 

I would suggest (and this is just my personal opinion) that it might be an idea when the Warders do something that impacts another Org (whether it's posting a thread on their public board, creating a ribbon using their symbol or anything else) a little communication with that Org first would go a long way to preventing similar confusion/issues, if only out of common courtesy. It doesn't seem to me to be an unreasonable step to take and I don't think the Band would be the only Org to feel that way either.

[Auld Manriva]

Cri Ma Nitly ... Delenn did those? Why didn' ya tole me Sis?!  I'd a been slobberin all over m'self to do one special like :-\ ...

 

Del darlin, you has my msn and you can PM me too if you like, or anyone else involved in the making of these little jewels and I'll assist in any way I can.

[Taymist]

lol thought you knew that was why she'd posted bro.  ;D

[Delenn]

*grins* thanks Riva and yeah I am doing all the rank bars and the cloak sigs.. take a good hard look at the background of Paets sig.. it may be the very best i have ever done on any site *beams*

 

Oh and i do like that ribbon and i think i will be using it .. will need to get filled in on the Wofkins part in that event first though

[Taymist]

It was actually a Wolfkin Invasion of the Band Del... the Warders kinda just tagged along at Goldy's invitation. :)

[Lanthirrhos]

Reference? :P Like... whole post! :P

[North Star]

well i have to say its nice to be listened to and understood for a change...and the mudslinging was wholey deserved and i stand by it

 

a few points:

 

1. with regards to the BM issue, its not the BAND as a whole who has a problem with it. its a few people within one regiment who have a problem with it and if you look back on the threads which discussed it at the time im sure you will see who i mean. by no means does this reflect the feeling of the entire band, however i will say that it did reflect corkis feelings at the time...

 

2. i noticed there is also a white tower symbol as one of the ribbons...so why arent they kicking and screaming? im considering the warders as a separate entity btw...

 

3. 12th...corki and i spent a long time arguing over both the BM issue and the ribbons issue....so i think things were entirely as my post said

 

i actually managed to get corki to see some sense about the ribbons with these points:

- there is a finite number of ways you can reward your members and considering the number of ways the band has had over the years is it honestly surprising there is some overlap?

- there is also a finite number of ways to run an org, so again is it surprising there is some overlap?

- there is a finite number of award styles, so again it is surprising there is some overlap?

 

also if your going to talk about originality then the band certainly cant say anything on that matter as we have stolen our fair share of ideas over the years...im sure footy will remember we "borrowed" the idea for an org game off the BT when we first started up and that wasnt well received. nothing is original so it doesnt provide the basis for any arguement tbh.

 

the other question people, especially in the band, need to ask themselves is, and i've stressed this to corki on enough occassions,:

 

HOW MUCH DO THE WARDERS AFFECT ACTUALLY AFFECT THE BAND?

 

some answers (dont take the wrong way...)

- band is an org. warders are not, they are within the WT so you have to be a member of the WT in order to see their boards. so the band does not have a rival org - it has a rival eighth of an organisation

- how many warders are there compared to banders? and how visible are they to the rest of DM? answer: few and not very.

- how many people who are not of the band or the warders are going to ask themselves "hey those symbols are the same"? i would have said few, if any.

 

so do the warders acitivies actually affect the band in any way, shape or form? no.

 

so should the band have any say in how they run their org? no i dont think we should. no one has a say in how the band runs...and it wasnt so long ago everyone was complaining about DM admins coming even seeing the private boards. are we being fair on the warders? no we are not. they are trying to rectify years of being stagnant - not an easy thing to do. wouldn't it be better to help them or at least leave them alone instead of hindering them at every step?

 

[Taymist]

and the mudslinging was wholey deserved and i stand by it

 

No, it was inappropriate and really quite nasty not to mention that it comes very close to breaking Band Law. There isn't a single Infant who is arrogant and to even suggest that shows a distinct lack of knowledge. Committed, hard working and rightly protective of that work, most certainly... but arrogant? No.

 

a few points:

 

1. with regards to the BM issue, its not the BAND as a whole who has a problem with it. its a few people within one regiment who have a problem with it and if you look back on the threads which discussed it at the time im sure you will see who i mean. by no means does this reflect the feeling of the entire band, however i will say that it did reflect corkis feelings at the time...

 

I believe we already established that it was specifically the Infantry. It was not just a few people but the feeling of the whole Regiment following internal discussion. I don't believe it's fair to so misrepresent the issue or the people involved given you weren't privy to the discussions the Regiment had at the time.

 

2. i noticed there is also a white tower symbol as one of the ribbons...so why arent they kicking and screaming? im considering the warders as a separate entity btw...

 

Most likely because the Warders are part of the WT and not a seperate entity currently, however anyone wants to "consider" them.

 

i actually managed to get corki to see some sense about the ribbons with these points:

 

Which is precisely the response Corki had (and passed on) from his Senior Staff which you'd know if you'd read my post. No Banders had actually complained or had a problem with the Warders using ribbons at any stage so that's rather a moot point. I'm not entirely sure why that's even been raised as a problem.

 

also if your going to talk about originality then the band certainly cant say anything on that matter as we have stolen our fair share of ideas over the years...im sure footy will remember we "borrowed" the idea for an org game off the BT when we first started up and that wasnt well received. nothing is original so it doesnt provide the basis for any arguement tbh.

 

Which has absolutely no relevance. That was then and this is now. Just because the Band made a mistake once, it doesn't justify others making similar mistakes now. Mistakes are there to be learned from, not repeated or condoned. Besides which "the Band" then was completely different people to now.

 

- how many people who are not of the band or the warders are going to ask themselves "hey those symbols are the same"? i would have said few, if any.

 

Then you'd be wrong judging by the questions and reactions myself and others have had already. But since it's been dealt with, quite reasonably and civilly, as you can clearly see from Del's posts, it's rather beating a dead horse.

 

so should the band have any say in how they run their org? no i dont think we should. no one has a say in how the band runs...and it wasnt so long ago everyone was complaining about DM admins coming even seeing the private boards. are we being fair on the warders? no we are not. they are trying to rectify years of being stagnant - not an easy thing to do. wouldn't it be better to help them or at least leave them alone instead of hindering them at every step?

 

I fail to see the relevance of this. Firstly, it's not an Org anyway. Secondly, no-one has suggested that we should have any say in how they run things. I don't see how the Band could, considering we aren't all Warders with access to Warder boards. As to being fair and helping them, that was the whole point of suggesting communication would be a help if something similar came up in future, no matter what Orgs or groups were involved. Having different views is not by definition an attack on anyone and it's really about time people stopped twisting things to suit themselves and completely misrepresenting both the Band and the Infantry. I hardly think debates over two items can be classed as "hindering them at every step". That's a nice flair for the dramatic but not really an accurate reflection of events.

 

______________

 

Paet, if you're still following this I suggest you take it up with Corki in private now as I'm locking this thread. He'll be around on Friday he said. There's a fair few points of view been stated here, so hopefully it's given you a clearer picture. Feel free to PM me if you need anything else meantime.  :)

 

In summary:

 

The BM issue is dead. You have yours and we have ours and they're both completely different to one another.

 

The Band as a whole isn't bothered about you having ribbons, seems to be the consensus. The concept is open to anyone.

 

The Red Hand symbol being used, people weren't keen on but, again, that's been resolved through a little communication so there's no issue.

 

Any resentment there was over the BM issue at the time is in the past on our side. I don't think the Warders really need to worry about that.