mat's foxhead medallion

[Ashandarei]

I read a post in the aMoL forum where someone mentioned that Mat's ter'angreal would not be able to stop balefire... Personally, I think the medallion can simply unwind the flows for that as well, but what are your thoughts on it?

 

Also, as evidence that an object of the power can affect balefire is that Callandor split the balefire flow that one of the male forsaken (i think Rahvin?) sent at Rand. But, that was an sa'angreal, so possibly it could do things that ter'angreal can't...

[Kadere]

direct channeling at Mat is stopped by the medallion, but I don't think balefire would be. Balfire would be like the lightning which killed him in TFoH, it's more of an external force acting on him, not a direct force. Like healing is a direct force, and won't work; but I think balefire would.

[Guest Majsju]

Uhm, just where in nature do you find balefire?

[Kadere]

I didn't say you found balefire in nature. I just said it's an external force of the power, unlike healing. If you create something with the power like balefire or lightning it can affect any person, it doesn't matter who you're aiming at or anything. But a direct channeling like healing, or compulsion, wouldn't work because of the medallion.

 

It's like if I tried to posion Mat, he wouldn't die, but if I shot him with a .45 magnum, his head would blow off.

[rd2000]

Any construct of the power is useless against the medallion. I believe balefire would suffer the same fate as every other weave we have seen against Mat's medallion.

 

Now, balefire part of a tree, so it falls on Mat and he's squashed.

 

The reason Mat's medallion is so deadly to,....say, the Gholam is because it is not really alive. It is a walking,talking weave. Contact with his medallion started dissolving the weave that is it's body. A few moments more contact and the whole weave could have fallen apart and the gholam too would have fallen apart.

[HighLordXanthus]

I have to agree with rd2000. Balefire is a weave in and of itself. Lightning, if it were purposefully directed, say, at mat's chest would fail as well I think. But if it hits the ground, then causing the ground to rupture and that way perhaps electrify him, that would work, as it is indirect. Same as if you just cause the weather to be lightning producing without outright creating the bolt, it could kill him as this also is indirect. In Caemyln, when Rand is fighting Rahvin, Rahvin sensed the gateway, and then most likely created a lightning creating bit of weather, thus the attack felled mat, while a specificly directed blast would not.

 

But I am only hypothosizing. Prove me wrong. Balefire is a direct weave, thus the medalion would unweave the flows, thus no damage. You could only harm mat indirectly with balefire, i.e. the tree limb suggestion of rd200

[Luckers]

It would depend entirely on whether or not Balefire is a weave, or the effect of a weave.

 

In situations with lightning, and that wierd spark weave that Bethamin or Seta used on mat--and likely shocklances too, given the similarity to that spark weave, and the fact that power cannot be detected in it--what is occuring is that the channeler is using the power to incite electrons into movement... the electrons are given energy by the power, and so leap, creating the lightning or the sparks. It's a lot like the photoelectric effect, only instead of solar power, its one power being used to energise the electrons. It's a physical effect brought about by altering something with the one power.

 

Now, with balefire, we have no real way of judging for sure if it is the weave itself, or rather an effect of the weave... but there is some things in it that are implicatory. For one, it always leaps from a source... the channeler themselves. Unlike fire, which we seen channeled just around an individual, balefire always stems from a point. This could potentially be because the weave altered something which caused a balefire bar to explode out... perhaps a disruption of the time flow.

 

Additionally we've seen evidence that balefire cannot be stopped except by Ceundillar. The way this is talked about and thought about implies to me that there is NO method, not even slicing the weave, for the bar of balefire is not a force held together by a weave, but a side-effect of a weave.

 

I think that it might be that Mat's madallion would not protect him... of course, the limited evidence we have suggests that we likely won't know until RJ shows, or tells us.

[HighLordXanthus]

Remember when, rand is holding callandor, balefire is thrown at him, he holds up the sword that is not a sword, and it is split in two. That points to the fact that it is a weave.

 

Also, Rand and Moredin in shadar logoth, when the two bars of balefire touch, it directly affects both of them (the double vision ect.) pointing to the fact that it is a held weave for the length of its duration.

[bcxanth]

Plus when Rand is first learning how to use it he often thinks about how much or little power he's using for it, how wide of a weave, etc. Which imples to me that he has active control and hold on it the whole time the balefire is in existence.

[Luckers]

That level of control is avaliable to lightning as well, as proved by Cyndane and Cadsuane during the cleansing, so it's not nessasarily indicative. What happened with Rand and Moridin could be explained by the paradox nature of balefire, and im not certain that what Ishy used was Balefire... Rand used something even brighter seconds later and it was just fire. I suspect that is all this was.

[Cam]

the lightning was random...who says it struck mat? it may have struck directly in front of him in which case the charge would travel to him and char him like bacon...as for balefire...i think if he was TARGETED it would not work, but if balefire was random it would just pass through him an dthat would be it...

[Luckers]

RJ said it struck him, and explained why. Additionally since then we've seen a 'spark' (electricity) weave work on mat despite the medallion, and it makes sense physics-wise--and RJ has a strong basing in physics.

[Blade]

I agree with all those points, but luckers, I believe that 'spark' weave was the Aes Sedai tossing sparks from a fire at him, not an actual electricity weave. i don't have KoD to reference though since I want the series in paperback, so I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure on that point.

[merlinspetrock]

I took the sparks to come from a fire also. As gar as Im concerned Balefire is a weave and if used directly against Mat it wouldnt work.

[merlinspetrock]

I took the sparks to come from a fire also. As gar as Im concerned Balefire is a weave and if used directly against Mat it wouldnt work.

[Jellybelly]

It can't be a weave. It is the product of a weave just as lightning and fireballs are the products of other weaves.

 

Why do I say this? Weaves are invisible to regular people. Balefire, on the other hand, is visible to anyone. This is surely indicative of the fact that it is not a weave in and of itself, but rather an extremely destructive ray brought about by an offensive weave.

[Jellybelly]

It can't be a weave. It is the product of a weave just as lightning and fireballs are the products of other weaves.

 

Why do I say this? Weaves are invisible to regular people. Balefire, on the other hand, is visible to anyone. This is surely indicative of the fact that it is not a weave in and of itself, but rather an extremely destructive ray brought about by an offensive weave.

[Jedimuppet]

It can't be a weave. It is the product of a weave just as lightning and fireballs are the products of other weaves.

 

Why do I say this? Weaves are invisible to regular people. Balefire' date=' on the other hand, is visible to anyone. This is surely indicative of the fact that it is not a weave in and of itself, but rather an extremely destructive ray brought about by an offensive weave.[/quote']

 

I don't think you coult hit Mat if you were targeting him. You might be able to target the earth beneath his feet, though.

 

The lightning hit him, because lightning was striking down at random, and by that time was just ferocious normal lightning, not channeling (albeit brought about by channeling.)

J

[Jedimuppet]

It can't be a weave. It is the product of a weave just as lightning and fireballs are the products of other weaves.

 

Why do I say this? Weaves are invisible to regular people. Balefire' date=' on the other hand, is visible to anyone. This is surely indicative of the fact that it is not a weave in and of itself, but rather an extremely destructive ray brought about by an offensive weave.[/quote']

 

I don't think you coult hit Mat if you were targeting him. You might be able to target the earth beneath his feet, though.

 

The lightning hit him, because lightning was striking down at random, and by that time was just ferocious normal lightning, not channeling (albeit brought about by channeling.)

J

[bcxanth]

There certainly seems to be two types of lightning, and I think that's the core of the confusion on this issue. There's one type of lightning, where they talk about needing a storm to call it from and stuff, where they just reach ot with a weave to touch a storm and make the lightning pop out. Then there's the second kind that's just a lightning bolt from nowhere that's directed and created by a specific weave. I think the first type of lightning is what hit Mat, and the second type wouldn't be able to hit him.

[bcxanth]

There certainly seems to be two types of lightning, and I think that's the core of the confusion on this issue. There's one type of lightning, where they talk about needing a storm to call it from and stuff, where they just reach ot with a weave to touch a storm and make the lightning pop out. Then there's the second kind that's just a lightning bolt from nowhere that's directed and created by a specific weave. I think the first type of lightning is what hit Mat, and the second type wouldn't be able to hit him.

[Jedimuppet]

There certainly seems to be two types of lightning' date=' and I think that's the core of the confusion on this issue. There's one type of lightning, where they talk about needing a storm to call it from and stuff, where they just reach ot with a weave to touch a storm and make the lightning pop out. Then there's the second kind that's just a lightning bolt from nowhere that's directed and created by a specific weave. I think the first type of lightning is what hit Mat, and the second type wouldn't be able to hit him.[/quote']

 

Exactly.

J

[Jedimuppet]

There certainly seems to be two types of lightning' date=' and I think that's the core of the confusion on this issue. There's one type of lightning, where they talk about needing a storm to call it from and stuff, where they just reach ot with a weave to touch a storm and make the lightning pop out. Then there's the second kind that's just a lightning bolt from nowhere that's directed and created by a specific weave. I think the first type of lightning is what hit Mat, and the second type wouldn't be able to hit him.[/quote']

 

Exactly.

J

[divillysausages]

didn't that seanchan chick that rand captured have a ter'angreal that unwound cydane's fire attach when rand was cleansing saidin? this would suggest that the fireball is a weave for its full duration, and then its probable to assume that the same occurs with balefire. i think if mat was balefired then it wouldn't work

[divillysausages]

didn't that seanchan chick that rand captured have a ter'angreal that unwound cydane's fire attach when rand was cleansing saidin? this would suggest that the fireball is a weave for its full duration, and then its probable to assume that the same occurs with balefire. i think if mat was balefired then it wouldn't work