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Something else...


Bob T Dwarf
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... to ponder.

 

Consider what we know of the Forsaken and their tactics.  They pick a territory.  Get close to the seat of power.  Supplant or utterly control  the ruler .

 

1.  Rahvin in Caemlyn.

2.  Sammael in Illian.

3.  Bel'al in Tear.

4.  Mesaana in the Tower.

5.  Graendal in Arad Domon.

6.  Semirhage in Seanchan.

7.  Asmodean the Aiel.

 

Ishy/Baalzy/Mori wasn't in a state to participate in kingdom conquest.  Lanfear had ( probably ) asked for and been given the Dragon Reborn.  Aginor and Balthamel got themselves taken out before they could get into the initial kingdom sweepstakes.  Moggy was ( for all that everybody despises her ) probably too valuable as a roving spy.

 

That leaves Demandred as the only one unaccounted for.

 

Asmo had the bad fortune to have Rand upset all his nice plans for the Aiel and then got taken prisoner and made to instruct Rand to boot.  Talk about irony.  But it gave them some coverage of Rand, despite his resistance to Lanfear's manipulations.

 

After recycling:

 

8. Osan'gar got sicced on the Asha'man.

9.  Aran'gar got assigned the Salidar Aes Sedai.

 

Then Lanfear and Asmo went and got themselves dead on the same day, leaving Rand uncovered.

 

Up through "Winter's Heart" that is supposedly how the situation remained.

 

Does it seem reasonable to you that The Shadow would leave the major player on the other side unsupervised for that long?  It doesn't to me.

 

So, who is Rand's minder, and why haven't we figured that out yet?

 

 

 

 

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Demandred and Osan'gar were Rand's minders. But Osan'gar went AWOL and tried to kill Rand, then got himself killed at the Cleansing. Demandred is using proxies I think, as is his style. Taim seems to be one, but he's not seen Rand in awhile. I think since Rand has gone into stealth mode since the attack in Cairhein he's been hard to track or spy on. Though it seems Moridin has been following him, as per the attack on the Manor, a test perhaps. Ishy was able to find Rand basically anywhere due to the Ta'veren influences -that seems to be a Talent of Ishammael's, as other Forsaken say it isn't easy- so I'd have to say that Moridin is keeping his own eye on Rand. Elza is another story though she's close to the DR and is a DF, but I don't think she is involved with any Forsaken, her fervor to keep Rand alive wouldn't go unnoticed by a Forsaken. She could be there source of info though, who knows.

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Moridin is certainly doing his best to keep an eye on Rand, but he isn't close to him.  He has no direct influence.

 

Remember, they operate by either supplanting the ruler or controlling the ruler.  It has to be someone that's part of his inner-circle.

 

Moridin wasn't the one who ordered the attack on Rand.  He had no clue where Rand was at the time.  Nobody did.  That was the member of his inner-circle who did know and was posing as Sammael to issue the orders.

 

Osan'gar's primary brief was Taim and the Asha'man.  Rand was gravy.  After all, would you assign a nebbish like Aginor to Rand? Aginor, who had already proved he couldn't handle Rand, even before Rand had any idea what he was doing?  Not me.

 

And, certainly, the minder is obviously Demandred.  My question is who is he, really?

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Osan'gar's primary brief was Taim and the Asha'man.  Rand was gravy.  After all, would you assign a nebbish like Aginor to Rand? Aginor, who had already proved he couldn't handle Rand, even before Rand had any idea what he was doing?  Not me.

 

And, certainly, the minder is obviously Demandred.  My question is who is he, really?

 

concerning Osan'gar...what does hell does 'combat' have to do with watching someone?

 

concerning Demandred...welcome to one of the more popular questions out there, lol.  personally, i don't think he has any identity at all.  he's probably at shayol ghul organizing the trolloc armies.

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No.  They always embed someone who is more than a watcher.

 

If he isn't there to actually replace the ruler, he's there to control the ruler.  That rules out Osan'gar.  He certainly wasn't at the right level in the hierarchy to do any controlling, and he would have been utterly incapable of replacing Rand.

 

Taim and the Asha'man were his primary brief.

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Guest The Thin Inn Keeper

So, who is Rand's minder, and why haven't we figured that out yet?

 

Hmmmmm.

 

So we've got Demandred through proxy, noteably Taim. Though Taim is certainly more interested in the BT and isn't going to be under Rand's radar for much longer.

 

Are we assuming that the watcher has to be a channeler? I'm thinking that the DO doesn't have all that many channelers of any note. I'd think they'd also have to have done their time in the ranks of Darkfriends before getting that particular job.

 

What about all those nasty forum rumours about Bashere? A non-channeler perhaps?

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7.  Asmodean the Aiel.

What?

 

Asmo gave Couladin the fake Dragon-tattoos to mess with Rands chances of winning the Aiel to his side. Quite a bit of a stretch to compare it with the forsaken who seized control over nations, but...

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7.  Asmodean the Aiel.

What?

 

Asmo gave Couladin the fake Dragon-tattoos to mess with Rands chances of winning the Aiel to his side. Quite a bit of a stretch to compare it with the forsaken who seized control over nations, but...

 

are you sure he didn't give couladin the tattoo's to distract rand while he searched rhuidean for the access keys?

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are you sure he didn't give couladin the tattoo's to distract rand while he searched rhuidean for the access keys?

 

You do not think it would have been easier to just sneak away when Rand was sleeping? Especially once he started to spend more time with the Shaido which meant even more time away from Rands eventual watch.

 

We just get no opportunity to see how much farther it would have gone.  The whole fracas at Rhuidean happened and Asmo became Rand's prisoner before Asmo's involvement could much more than get off the ground.

 

Asmo was in the waste because Lanfear brought him there, as a part of the plan to make Asmo Rands teacher. Not much room for a secret plot to control the Aiel...

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Asmo was in the waste because Lanfear brought him there, as a part of the plan to make Asmo Rands teacher. Not much room for a secret plot to control the Aiel...

 

Yup, that was Lanfear's plan alright.  It just wasn't Asmo's.  Nor was it the reason Asmo was sent to the Waste.

 

Read the relevant chapters, Maj.  Lanfear set him up.  She knew he'd make a try for Rhuidean and whatever treasures it might contain.  She was confident of either her own or LTT's ability to stop him.

 

That's part of the reason that her name is now Cyndane.  She put her own plans ahead of the DO's agenda.

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Read the relevant chapters...You mean like in Rhuidean where Asmo flat out says that he would not be there if it was not for Lanfear? Which means he did not go there by his own choice, nor did he go because someone other than Lanfear told him to.

 

And Lanfear brought him to the waste for one single reason, to become Rands teacher.

 

 

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are you sure he didn't give couladin the tattoo's to distract rand while he searched rhuidean for the access keys?

 

You do not think it would have been easier to just sneak away when Rand was sleeping? Especially once he started to spend more time with the Shaido which meant even more time away from Rands eventual watch.

 

i think so, but i very vaguely remembering something about that in the books.  seems like something rand would be thinking, along the lines of "he gave him those markings to distract me, but now they're responsible for all the death and destruction in cairhieren."

 

albeit, i imagine it would have taken a long while for asmo to find them(provided that they didn't resonate - can't remember if they do), and it would have been more convenient if rand simply died(without it being tied to himself).

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On Demandred I have a feeling that he is either in the border lands or the seanchen.  After Knife of Dreams with Sermihage messing the with the Seanchen I am now almost sure he is in the borderlands waiting for rand to come up and prepare to fight the Last Battle and try and earn favor with the DO by taking out Rand before the battle even starts.

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You mean like in Rhuidean where Asmo flat out says that he would not be there if it was not for Lanfear?

 

Which really means nothing more than, "She dangled a carrot under my nose and I was stupid enough to jump at it.", if you think about the situation for a minute.

 

Plus, to paraphrase Mr. Jordan, "And, you believed Asmodean?!?"

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Which really means nothing more than, "She dangled a carrot under my nose and I was stupid enough to jump at it.", if you think about the situation for a minute.

 

Plus, to paraphrase Mr. Jordan, "And, you believed Asmodean?!?"

 

Ah yes, look at the situation. Asmo is hysterical after Rand cut off his black cord, and hysterical people rarely come up with elaborate lies on the spot. Also, he is not talking to Rand, he is talking to Lanfear, and lying to her about something she had done seems kinda...stupid.

 

Then look at the hints about Asmos secret plot to attach himself to the Aiel. Oh wait, there are none. Instead, at the crucial point where Asmos supposed minion is trying to go for the leadership that could have given Asmo any kind of influence, Asmo runs off to Rhuidean. Oops...

 

Nothing wrong with trying to spot not yet fully revealed plots, but there should be at least some kind of support in the books. This does not even have the hint of a hint.

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Yes.  Do look at the situation.

 

Asmo is first of all a hysterical ninny in general.  Secondly, he just got caught with his hand in the cookie-jar.  Third, he is not someone who accepts personal responsibility.  Fourth, what better time to make his grab than while he expects everyone to be distracted by the show Couladin is making.  Fifth, pointing and yelling, " It's all HER fault!" is hardly an elaborate lie.  Every three year old in the world uses it.

 

But lastly, and most important, ask yourself which is going to cause the most trouble:  One tribe of the Aiel out rampaging around or the whole Aiel people united under Couladin ( who is under the thumb of one of the 'Chosen' ) out rampaging and causing trouble?

 

Then ask yourself which of those alternatives would better suit the DO's purposes.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

Plus, to paraphrase Mr. Jordan, "And, you believed Asmodean?!?"

UNQUOTE

 

Actualy Bob, RJ said that about Ishamael, when referring to the whole "We have fought a thousand times, we only need to win once, you'll serve us whether dead or alive, this is the last time" thing

 

QUOTE

BTW, I'm including Asmo as part of Rand's coverage, because there is one thing of which I have no doubt.

 

If he could have figured out how to sell Rand out and get back into the DO's good books, he would have in a heartbeat.

UNQUOTE

 

Granted, Asmo would have done that. But would anyone have trusted him? I think not, the Dark One himself thinks Asmo went willingly, rather than having been put in Rands control by Lanfear. It is possible to walk in the Light no matter how long you walk in the Shadow, but that is a one way ticket, not a return flight. They would have killed Asmo no matter what. Theres no way Asmo could be counted as watching Rand for the Shadow.

 

Also, as for who was assigned to which nation/task, Lanfear was not GIVEN the task of watching Rand. She took it, and not to serve her master, more to get into the pants of the Lews therin, next life or not. If anything, I would have thought she was the last one the Dark One would have sent to keep an eye on Rand-the Dark one will definitely know about Lanfears crush on Lews. Lanfear would have just seen it as a chance to get into his pants-I think she was given a different task by the Dark One. Hamper the Aiel maybe (although if she was given that task surely she would have picked an Aiel identity to usurp, but Im straying from the point here.)

 

As for Demandred, Aran'gar said that he and Osan'gar were supposed to watch Rand. That "supposed" hints that he wasn't doing what he was meant to be. We know Osan'gar was, and personally I think Taim is Demmys proxy as many others do. We all know that Demmy is known for using proxies, meaning he could turn the majority of his attention elsewhere (especially the case with Taim as his proxy, who can deliver his reports by Travelling). I reckon he is behind Masema and the Dragonsworn-people forcing others to worship Rand surely sounds like a good way to give him a bad reputation, making others less likely to work with him.

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Actualy Bob, RJ said that about Ishamael, when referring to the whole "We have fought a thousand times, we only need to win once, you'll serve us whether dead or alive, this is the last time" thing.

 

I know that.  That's why when I swapped Asmo for Ishy I said it was a paraphrase.

 

I said I thought she'd asked for the assignment.  I still think that is the case.  Like you say, she wanted her hooks into LTT no matter what body he was wearing.

 

Her whole ploy to Rand shows that she was playing entirely her own game and not the one the DO expected her to play.  Dislocating the DO's plans about the Aiel in order to further her own agenda was a minor matter to her.  When she launched into it, she fully expected that she and LTT, with the help of the Choeden Kal, could defeat any and all comers, including the DO and actually rule the world ( with her pulling his strings, of course ).

 

Which just begins to show how deranged she is.

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But lastly, and most important, ask yourself which is going to cause the most trouble:  One tribe of the Aiel out rampaging around or the whole Aiel people united under Couladin ( who is under the thumb of one of the 'Chosen' ) out rampaging and causing trouble?

 

Seizing an opportunity that happens to come about while you are out doing something else, that might give a gold star in the DOs book is quite a different thing from having the mega-secret plot to become involved with the leadership of the Aiel. Especially since it was just pure luck for Asmo that Couladin happened to be there at that specific time, ripe for plucking.

 

I said I thought she'd asked for the assignment.  I still think that is the case.

 

And RJ said that the forsaken carved out there bases of their own choosing.

 

Dislocating the DO's plans about the Aiel in order to further her own agenda was a minor matter to her.

 

Care to provide a quote where it is stated that the DO had specific plans for the Aiel?

Oh, right...

 

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Maj -

 

You simply don't grasp the wider story do you?  How all of the Do's machinations fit together into a whole?  How all the parts and pieces of all the books  link together to form a single story arc all the way from LTT wandering his ruined palace in "The Eye of the World"  through the ending of "A Memory of Light"?

 

I'm truly sorry for that.  It's a rich story.  Almost a tapestry.  And like the Age Lace, every thread ties to another and loops around and across others.

 

Not perfect, mind, but still a pretty darn good yarn.

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You simply don't grasp the wider story do you?  How all of the Do's machinations fit together into a whole?  How all the parts and pieces of all the books  link together to form a single story arc all the way from LTT wandering his ruined palace in "The Eye of the World"  through the ending of "A Memory of Light"?

 

Seems like you are the one who can not grasp the wider story. Or rather, by attempting to grasp it assumes that it is a very simplistic story where everything is black or white.

 

But here is the thing, not every plot by the forsaken are ordered, or even approved by the DO. There are so many examples of this that even the most casual observer should have noticed this long ago.

 

This is a crucial part of the story, the forsaken as petty, greedy, arrogant etc individuals who aims for personal benefits in the hope this will give them gold stars in the DOs book. If the DO had been directing everything from the beginning, and the forsaken putting their own interests as a second priority, we would have gotten the series as a trilogy, but with a very bad ending for the good guys.

 

It is not until LOC we see the DO start taking a more active role when it comes to giving orders. And even so, as late as WH we see Mesaana directly disobeying one of the DOs orders.

 

So claims that the DO had any great plans for the Aiel long before LOC without any kind of backing up from the books, that completely ignored the wider story.

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