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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Buried in the sealing of the bore


trakand_01
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So we know that Aginor and Balthamel were quite near the surface when the Bore was sealed, they aged, and they were able to touch the world much sooner than the other Forsaken.

 

According to the BWB, Lanfear was sealed deepest of all the Forsaken, whether because she was the one that drilled the Bore, or because of her strength in the Power i'm not sure, maybe it was pure coincidence but nevertheless, she was the deepest buried, and thus retained her youthful appearance and beauty.

 

What confuses me is this; Lanfear is one of the first Forsaken we see (I think Rand / Mat / Perrin see Ishamael/Be'lal in their dreams before we meet Lanfear / Selene?). So this means that even though she was deeply sealed, she escaped quite early on.

 

If Lanfear is out, and has been for so long, how comes the DO is still trapped? I would expect that if the DO is so far in that he can't get out, that Lanfear would also be the last Forsaken to escape, when perhaps only one seal remains, but that doesnt seem to be the case.

 

Do you think there's something I havent understood, or that RJ just wanted them all out as soon as possible, to 'get on with it' as it were?

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Aside from the fact that not all the information in the BWB is accurate, there is also the possible problem of "size" (for lack of a better term). The Bore could be open enough to let the puny humans in and out, but their god still can't fit through. The prison was made to hold him and not them, remember.

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Guest Dreadlord

What bothers me is this; the Forsaken are IMMORTAL, so why would they age at all, even inside the prison? I would have thought they wouldnt age at all beyond what they had before being granted immortality.

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I don't believe that the forsaken do age normally, that they are indeed immortal, and I base this belief on 2 facts.

 

Ishamael was the one most loosely bound to the bore(barely bound at all) and despite this by TEotW as far as I remember he doesn't seem to have aged much(if at all), so why is he also not ancient like Aginor and Balthamel? I believe that  their aging had something to do with the way in which they were trapped in the bore, I have almost nothing to bis this on, mind, it's just my belief. The one thing that may hint that it was their presence in the bore that aged them is something Aginor says "The wheel grinds exceedingly fine over 3000 years of imprisonment" (paraphrase) suggesting that it had something to do with the bore, otherwise why mention imprisonment at all?

 

Secondly, and I'm going from memory on this, doesn't Aginor appear to become more youthful as he channels saidin from TEotW? I remember Rand commenting on it, but that's as distinct as my memory is about it.

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Remember that the Forsaken were sealed in the Bore, and the Bore is outside of the world in a sense.  I think that because Aginor and Balthemel were near the surface time moved in on them differently than with Lanfear who was buried so deeply that time couldn't reach her.

 

The bore itself is a hole, but it would be like someone said earlier...the DO can't fit through it but he might be able to put his finger through and touch the world.

 

 

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Keep in mind that the Dark One's prison and the prison of the Forsaken were two different things. The Forsaken were imprisoned in the Sealing of the bore, not in the prison of the Dark One. Their freedom came when those seals began to come free. The Dark One however was still restricted--and will continue to be restricted even when the very last seal is gone. As things stand the breaking of four of the seals has allowed him much more freedom to touch the world.

 

If Lanfear is out, and has been for so long, how comes the DO is still trapped? I would expect that if the DO is so far in that he can't get out, that Lanfear would also be the last Forsaken to escape, when perhaps only one seal remains, but that doesnt seem to be the case.

 

All the Forsaken got freed when the first seal was broken, and she may have indeed have been the last out. The Dark One is not sealed in the bore, he is imprisoned beyond the bore, and the bore only allowed him to poke a pinky through.

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Guest Dreadlord

Bit still in my eyes immortal is immortal, theres no room fro any grey spaces that I can see. Saying that though, this is fantsy, RJ may have had his reasons but I cant figure it out. It isnt the Bore itself that provides the immortality, and it isnt the fact that they are imprisoned that makes them immortal either. So unless Im wrong every Forsaken will look as withered as Aginor and Balthamel did eventually. What makes me say this is Im positive that some of the Forsaken served the Dark One for more than 3000 years before they were imprisoned, meaning some are 6000+ years old. And im sure it wasnt Aginor or Balthamel that served for that long.

 

I could be wrong though, I have no page references, but I seem to remember reading that in one of the books

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I doubt that the Forsaken are immortal. That doesn't make any sense, after all, they are just Aes Sedai (apart from Moridin that can use the True Power).

 

Ishamael might have been barely caught in the seals, but some part of him might still have been there. Thay could have kept him alive, while he still could move around in the world. Also, he have aged, and he have aged allot. The way we saw him isn't what he actually looked like. Remember when he was killed by Rand, he changed. Can't remember exactly what that part says, but from what I remember he was almost decomposing already.

 

That's what he really looked like.

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All of the Forsaken are important people from the Age of Legends.  They joined the Dark One after the Bore was drilled.  This severely limits how long they could have been serving the Dark One before the Strike at Shayoul Ghul.  6000+ years...that just doesn't fit.

 

Working backwards:

 

The Breaking occurred 3000 years ago.

 

The War of the Shadow raged for 10 years before the breaking, from what the BWB tells us.

 

Wikipedia says the time between the drilling of the Bore and the start of the War of the Shadow was 80-100 years.  I don't remember if this is what the BWB says, but I'm assuming it's true- it sounds like enough time for Aginor to leave his post as a prominent scientist, experiment, and finally breed enough Trollocs for the War of the Shadow.  If someone could verify, that'd help. XD

 

So at most, you have 110 (100 years + 10 years) years that someone could have been serving the Dark One before the Breaking.  Remember, before the drilling of the Bore the Dark One was unheard of- indeed, most negative aspects of society and personality were extremely muted.  No one served the Dark One before the drilling of the Bore, unless you want to go waaay back, to the last turning of the Wheel. ;P

 

Remember that the Forsaken were sealed in the Bore, and the Bore is outside of the world in a sense.  I think that because Aginor and Balthemel were near the surface time moved in on them differently than with Lanfear who was buried so deeply that time couldn't reach her.

 

The bore itself is a hole, but it would be like someone said earlier...the DO can't fit through it but he might be able to put his finger through and touch the world.

 

I think you've got it right.  The Dark One's prison is outside the world (outside of time in most ways, in fact), and the Seals tried to do the same to the Bore.  We never see conversations from the Forsaken about spending 3000 years cooped up together in the Bore, so I think it's pretty safe to assume that time stopped (or nearly stopped) for them while they were trapped in there.

 

I think this also sort of explains Aginor/Balthamel.  They suffered from 'time friction'- time outside of the Bore was relentlessly rolling on, while time in the Bore was totally stationary.  The Bore became like a boulder in a river- on its outside, ('shallower' in the Bore) where it meets the oncoming stream, (the turning of the Wheel) it is mercilessly ground down.  Like the center of the boulder, the deeper parts of the Bore remain untouched.  It is interesting to consider if the rest of the Bore might have felt similar effects over tens of thousands of years.

 

And finally- yes, the Forsaken -are- immortal.  We've seen it.  It's just not your classic, "I never age and am invincible" style of immortality.  Instead, when they die, they're placed in new bodies.  As long as there's a population in Randland (and excluding weird effects like Balefire/Mashadar), they will live forever.

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The BWB says this;

 

Lanfear - Mierin was not among the first to go across to the shadow, although SHE drilled the Bore. At this time, they didnt know what was behind the seal/in the prison - she was shocked.

 

Graendal - became Forsaken several years after her 'change of behaviour' which happened within 10 years of the Bore being drilled. She visited Shayol Ghul to make her oaths within 25 years of the Collapse.

 

Semirhage - sometime after the drilling of the Bore, she was 'found out' to be torturing those she healed, and made the decision to turn to the Dark. She was one of the first Forsaken.

 

Mesaana - Doesnt say WHEN but it was before the War as she was a general at times.

 

Moghedien - Went over to the shadow long before the War of Power, but kept it quiet until years after the start of the war.

 

Ishamael - Possibly the first to pledge his soul. States 'It seems entirely likely that Ishamael could have been free in still earlier times, and that the cycle was merely longer than Aran could observe'. Aran was an Ogier writer.

 

Aginor - Some timein the first 30 years after the Collapse.

 

Balthamel -  Some time in the middle years of the Collapse.

 

Sammael - In the 4th year of the war. very specific.

 

Rahvin - Simply appeared during the collapse already a Forsaken.

 

Be'lal - During the Collapse.

 

Demandred - In the 3rd year of the War. Again very specific.

 

Asmodean - Doesnt say, but suggests sometime around or during the War.

 

 

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As I understand it, immortality is something that will be granted to those chosen to receive it, contingent on the DO's final victory and the breaking of the Wheel.

 

*If you believe what the Dark One, aka The Father of Lies, tells you. ;P

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And finally- yes, the Forsaken -are- immortal.  We've seen it.  It's just not your classic, "I never age and am invincible" style of immortality.  Instead, when they die, they're placed in new bodies.  As long as there's a population in Randland (and excluding weird effects like Balefire/Mashadar), they will live forever.

 

Well, that's not really immortality. The Forsaken themself are no more immortal then anyone else. However, when their soul is on the way to "the land of the dead" (lack of better wording), DO can scoop it up, and put the soul in a new body. However, this is not limited to Forsaken, he could do this with anyone, as long as he got spare bodies to put them in.

 

The reason why Bale Fire will really kill them, is becouse they are dead before they are killed, and therefor the dark one can't catch them on the way.

 

Forsaken are just Aes Sedai, nothing more.

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Well, the Forsaken are immortal but they aren't invincible; these are two different aspects.  They can be harmed just like anyone else.  The thing is that once dead, the DO then decides if they get to come back or not - they don't automatically get new bodies...remember that many of the Chosen died because of various reasons before there were only 13 left.  There were more than 13 Chosen at one point.

 

Balefire simply makes it impossible for the DO to regenerate their soul into a new body.  Yes, the Forsaken are Aes Sedai turned evil, but they did obtain immortality when they went over to the DO.  The immortality was not invincibility though, so they can be killed.  If Graendal went and lived in a cave for 1,000 years she would not die but if the cave fell on her in her sleep she'd likely die from the wounds.  It's immortality, there are just loopholes.

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

Can someone cite where this idea of non-aging immortality comes from?  I don't recall that in the books- other than, as aevogt said, the carrot offered to the Forsaken to get them to help the Dark One win.

UNQUOTE

 

The thing that makes me think they don't age with mortality is that only two Forsaken have aged severely. Am I right in saying that some of the Forsaken lived for a very long time-longer than Aes Sedai-even before they were imprisoned? If so, then why hasn't every single Forsaken aged as badly as Aginor and Balthamel? They aren't the oldest Forsaken unless I'm mistaken. It just seems like Aginor and Balthamel don't go by the same rules as anyone else. I don't know why but for some reason, them two being sealed "near the surface" so to speak doesn't seem like a reason that fits. Call me crazy if you want though, I will just blame it on the Taint.

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The thing that makes me think they don't age with mortality is that only two Forsaken have aged severely. Am I right in saying that some of the Forsaken lived for a very long time-longer than Aes Sedai-even before they were imprisoned? If so, then why hasn't every single Forsaken aged as badly as Aginor and Balthamel? They aren't the oldest Forsaken unless I'm mistaken. It just seems like Aginor and Balthamel don't go by the same rules as anyone else. I don't know why but for some reason, them two being sealed "near the surface" so to speak doesn't seem like a reason that fits. Call me crazy if you want though, I will just blame it on the Taint.

 

Thing is, Aginor himself says that the reason why he and Balthamel were so horribly aged is because they were to close to the world.

 

I am called Aginor," the old one said. "And he is Balthamel. He no longer speaks with his tongue. The Wheel grinds exceedingly fine over three thousand years imprisoned." His sunken eyes slid to the arch; Balthamel leaned forward, his mask's eyes on the white stone opening, as if he wanted to go straight in. "So long without," Aginor said softly. "So long."

"The Light protect - " Loial began, his voice shaking, and cut off abruptly when Aginor looked at him.

"The Forsaken," Mat said hoarsely, "are bound in Shayol Ghul - "

"Were bound." Aginor smiled; his yellowed teeth had the look of fangs. "Some of us are bound no longer. The seals weaken, Aes Sedai. Like Ishamael, we walk the world again, and soon the rest of us will come. I was too close to this world in my captivity, I and Balthamel, too close to the grinding of the Wheel, but soon the Great Lord of the Dark will be free, and give us new flesh, and the world will be ours once more. You will have no Lews Therin Kinslayer, this time. No Lord of the Morning to save you. We know the one we seek now, and there is no more need for the rest of you."

 

All the forsaken were Aes Sedai before the imprisonment, and had the same lifespans. I think someone might have noticed if some Aes Sedai walked around 1000 years old or more...

 

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Aginor says he was imprisoned but he didn't say he was in the DO's Prison. I think that the forsaken were imprisoned in the Seal itself not the DO's prison, I might be wrong but it could be similar to this, ie-trapped between the Seal and the Prison (like being stuck between the glass and the cork in a champagne bottle). I think that just the nature of the way they were imprisoned allowed Aginor and Balthamel to age. The way I see it their imprisonment had these effects:

1) It blocked them from the turning of the wheel provided they were deep enough.

2) It blocked them from the DO's protection from the wheel.

The problem is that the point where the "depth" of their imprisonment is enough to block out the Do's protection is not the same as the point where the wheel's turning is blocked out. I think there is a gap where the wheels turning can still grind, though slowed or muted, but the DO cannot lend His protection.

This would explain why Ishamael, who was hardly caught at all was able to wander free for over 3000 years and not age. Those that were deeper than Ishamael could not recieve the DO's help and therefore were subjected to the wheel's turnings in various intensities. Aginor and Balthamel as the most age affected. Several others said they had endless nightmares, they would have been sealed more deeply, while Lanfear the most deeply buried said it was dreamless.

It is this gradient we see in the way the Forsaken were affected coupled with the two facts that:

1) Ishamael did not age though being the most loosely caught.

2) Aginor seems to "flesh out" when he is using the Power from the Eye of the World.

.. that lead me to believe this.

 

Though the DO's protection might not be a "shield" that blocks you from the effects of the Wheel's turning, it could be a function that requires the protectee to channel to work. The protectee channels, the DO's "function" is activated, and the protectee's body is rejuvenated.

 

So after having written all of that it should be obvious that I think the DO does grant immortality. I think that balefireruinssteaks made a good point, the Do grants immortality not invincibility. Immortality is what the Elves in LotR had, they still could be killed they just didn't age or get sick, same thing for the Forsaken in WoT.

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