Something Semirhage Said

[Guest durram laddel cham]

Wasnt Semirhage a doctor, who specialised in the workings of the mind / brain?

 

She was the most skilled healer with the OP during her time in the AoL, but I dunno about specialising in the the mind/brain. She used to torture her patients even while healing them and she was going to be made swear an oath or be severed from the source due to this practice when she fled and joined the DO.

 

Graendal was indeed a famed psychiatrist during the AoL, which is why Semi mentioned that she would "be a ble to explain it better".

 

She was the most skilled healer indeed, but the reason she heals the brain a lot is beacause that is the most difficult thing to heal. She only healed (important, IDO for sure)people who were as good as dead or with a ver big problem in the brains.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

But Semirhage said she thought he heard LTT's voice as a real voice--that it was really LTT. It might make sense for her to have claimed that LTT was merely the result of Rand's insanity, but she didn't.

 

I'm honestly confused--she was truthful about Rand hearing a real voice, we can verify that... and nothing in what she said seemed especially designed in making Rand paranoid. Rand knows that he hears LTT's voice because he is insane, or rather mentally unstable due to the taint, though i doubt the destinction occurs to him--but he also knows its a real voice... why would Semirhage saying it make him paranoid?

UNQUOTE

 

I am looking at it from both angles Luckers, thats why you are getting confused.

 

While I dont think she was lying, I can understand WHY she would lie.

 

We know Rand hears the voice, and that it is a real voice-not something of the imagination. However, Semirhage was trying to imply that the Taint madness makes you hear the voice of your past life, A VOICE THAT IS REAL. We know the voice is real; we get confirmation at the end of Lord of Chaos when LTT tells Rand how to undo the shield.

 

What Im getting at is, was Semirhage lying about THE REASON that Rand hears the voice? If Rand hears it just because he is Lews Therins next life, Semirhage was lying in book 11 in order to make Rand paranoid about going insane. But if the Taint madness creates the link between you and your past life, like Semirhage said it does, then she was telling the truth, to make Rand paranoid.

[wvlr]

We know Rand hears the voice, and that it is a real voice-not something of the imagination.

 

I'm sorry but this is the part that I can not agree with. 

 

Some where on this board there was a theory that the voice in his head is just a fabrication that he has unconciously devised to explain his knowledge from his previous life.

 

When he first started channeling he started having "memories" from LTT but there was no "voice" that came with it.    He just "knew" things from LTTs life but they were without any voice.  The voice occured later and seems to reflect more of Rand's own opinion of himself than and real LTT opinion or real LTT thought process.

 

Sorry if I mutilated the other posters theory.    Maybe he can give us a better recap.

[Bazzles]

She was the most skilled healer indeed, but the reason she heals the brain a lot is beacause that is the most difficult thing to heal. She only healed (important, IDO for sure)people who were as good as dead or with a ver big problem in the brains.

 

I'm not trying to say this in a nasty way, but where did you read this? I remember it being mentioned that she was such a skilled healer that she could bring people back from the brink of death, but nothing about specialising in problems with the brain etc. A heart disorder is just as fatal as one in the brain, and can definitely kill just as quickly.

[wvlr]

We know Rand hears the voice, and that it is a real voice-not something of the imagination.

 

I'm sorry but this is the part that I can not agree with.   

 

Some where on this board there was a theory that the voice in his head is just a fabrication that he has unconciously devised to explain his knowledge from his previous life.

 

When he first started channeling he started having "memories" from LTT but there was no "voice" that came with it.    He just "knew" things from LTTs life but they were without any voice.   The voice occured later and seems to reflect more of Rand's own opinion of himself than and real LTT opinion or real LTT thought process.

 

Sorry if I mutilated the other posters theory.    Maybe he can give us a better recap.

 

If this theory is true.    Then Semi from Lanfear's comments knows that Rand has significant LTT Knowledge and from her AoL medical associations she probably knows that a common mechanisim for a persons brain to cope with this link to their past life is to "Hear" a voice of their past life.  So she uses these two items to try to weeken rand even more.    Also in referincing Grendal she causes a possibility that these people will be less likely to kill Grendal in some future fight.    That might give Grendal an edge where she can kill them.    Or if Grendal is captured she might be given an opportunity to "Heal" Rand which might allow her to escape.

 

Are these "big" opportunities?    No, but a captive would try anything that they can and Semi has escaped before in the AoL.

[Luckers]

I am looking at it from both angles Luckers, thats why you are getting confused.

 

While I dont think she was lying, I can understand WHY she would lie.

 

We know Rand hears the voice, and that it is a real voice-not something of the imagination. However, Semirhage was trying to imply that the Taint madness makes you hear the voice of your past life, A VOICE THAT IS REAL. We know the voice is real; we get confirmation at the end of Lord of Chaos when LTT tells Rand how to undo the shield.

 

What Im getting at is, was Semirhage lying about THE REASON that Rand hears the voice? If Rand hears it just because he is Lews Therins next life, Semirhage was lying in book 11 in order to make Rand paranoid about going insane. But if the Taint madness creates the link between you and your past life, like Semirhage said it does, then she was telling the truth, to make Rand paranoid.

 

Ah, yes i get what your saying, sorry for the thickness.

 

However i do disagree that Semirhage was trying to imply anything, frankly her presentation of events seemed very fair, and more than that fits with facts as we know them. Rand's mental stability is being compromised by Lews Therin, and furthermore this must be a result of the Taint--Lews Therin experienced nothing of the Dragon prior to him, and Rand's experiences match that of a known psychological effect, and we know that the Taint merely causes pre-existing conditions to manifest.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

So I was right about it being the Taint that causes it, that leads me to the original question-is there anyone else that hears the voice of their past life?

 

Sombody said Dashiva might as he talks to himself, but I would tend to disagree. Dashiva is Forsaken; his madness isnt due to the Taint seeing as the Taint doesnt touch the male Forsaken-the Dark Ones blessing protects them from it. Plus seeing as Dashiva/Osan'gar is Forsaken I wouldnt be surprised if "Dashiva talking to himself" is a clever ruse.

[Luckers]

Mmm. I doubt it too. Even if the talking to himself was a put-on, Aginor was the very idea of a mad-scientists. Talking to himself would be pretty in character.

 

Beyond that no, i dont think we've encountered any other characters who here voices of past lives... though Cadsuane mentions some of the men she's brought in hearing voices that teach them of things they shouldn't know.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Cadsuane mentions some of the men she's brought in hearing voices that teach them of things they shouldn't know

UNQUOTE

 

Is anyone able to get a page reference on that? When does Cadsuane turn up? Im halfway through Lord of Chaos and she hasnt shown up yet, although Im fairly sure its soon

[Guest durram laddel cham]

She was the most skilled healer indeed, but the reason she heals the brain a lot is beacause that is the most difficult thing to heal. She only healed (important, IDO for sure)people who were as good as dead or with a ver big problem in the brains.

 

I'm not trying to say this in a nasty way, but where did you read this? I remember it being mentioned that she was such a skilled healer that she could bring people back from the brink of death, but nothing about specialising in problems with the brain etc. A heart disorder is just as fatal as one in the brain, and can definitely kill just as quickly.

 

I got it from the BWB. the reason the brain is difficult to heal is because it's more complex then the hart. They both can be very fatal, but the brain is just more complex.

[trakand_01]

Quite right, the BWB says

 

"Nemene Damendar (Semi) was known for her ability to heal any injury, even to bring people back from the brink of death when all else had failed. She was often summoned around the world to deal with the most difficult cases, in particular to do with the brain."

 

It mentions how she discovered the pleasure and pain sensors in the brain, and uses them to invoke devotion from the people she tortures - they want the pleasure so much they will do anything, and dread the pain with the same effect. She was a sadist and as using the sensors in the brain leaves no physical mark, used this to torture people whilst healing their bodies.

[Bazzles]

Fair enough, I stand corrected. I lost my BWB a while back, and am too lazy to go get another. =(

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think Cadsuane shows up in Crown of Swords.

 

I've always loved the scene where she just shows up.  Classic.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

What if I say I'm not like the others?

What if I say I'm not just another one of your plays

You're the pretender

What if I say I will never surrender?

 

I'm the voice inside your head

You refuse to hear

I'm the face that you have to face

Mirrored in your stare

I'm what's left, I'm what's right

I'm the enemy

I'm the hand that'll take you down

Bring you to your knees

 

So who are you?

QUOTE

 

Nice to know someone else listens to Foo Fighters. Now I have just noticed about your signature, Trakand01, that some of the Pretender lyrics could almost be referencing Wheel of Time!

 

What if I say I'm not like the others? (Rand isnt a false Dragon)

What if I say I'm not just another one of your plays

You're the pretender

What if I say I will never surrender?

 

I'm the voice inside your head (Lews Therin)

You refuse to hear

I'm the face that you have to face (Moridins face)

Mirrored in your stare (Rand sometimes dreams he is LTT)

I'm what's left, I'm what's right

I'm the enemy (Darkfriends are everywhere)

I'm the hand that'll take you down (Semi blows his hand off)

Bring you to your knees

 

So who are you?

 

[trakand_01]

That pretty much mirrors my post about half an hour ago in the 'WoT Soundtrack' thread.

 

Thanks for the notice though, I thought so too.

[Brooke]

Okay here's what I don't get. When you think of reincarnation the general concensus is that the same soul is born again and again. So if Rand is infact LTT incarnate you would think it would be possible to remember things he remembered, possibly do things he could do, and think in a similar (if not the same way) he thought; however, hearing a past life voice in your head seems a little off to me. I guess anything is possible, but we're talking about his soul compartmentalizing itself. It's almost like Rand came up with this voice in order to help teach himself, or help bring back the memories of the past life, so that he could learn to do more things with the power and now he cannot turn the voice off. I believe at some point he actually had a fear of LTT taking over completely and Rand's voice becomeing the one in the background.

 

If that is not right, if the voice is not just a coping mechanism, but actually the remember voice of LTT then we can see from that voice that Rand is not any where near as insane as LTT was at the end. LTT lost it all when he accidently killed the woman he loved. Even in Rand's head he has moments of clarity, but I think that loved lost pushed him over the edge.

 

If Rand doesn't die completely and totally at the end of book 12 I'm guessing that the voice of LTT will and Rand will be free of it. But if that voice dies and Rand does not, and Rand is LTT incarnate...does that mean part of Rand's soul dies or just it just go more dormant and become just that little voice in his head when he talked to himself like it was in the first few books?

[trakand_01]

There was a debate about this a few months ago. I think it is a bit odd, but I personally think that the Dragon is not really a soul, it's an object. THE Dragon. However the only way to have this necessary object is to utilise a soul. LTT was the first soul (that we know the name of) to be the vassel of the Dragon, and Rand al'Thor is the second soul.

 

The confusion, I think, is that Lanfear and the other Forsaken still consider him to be 'Lews Therin' because, as far as they are concerned, Lews Therin was 'The Dragon', and Rand is 'The Dragon Reborn', which they are considering is Lews Therin come again. I personally think it is 'The Dragon' come again, as it is the Dragon who is spun out of the pattern every now and again, not Lews Therin.

 

Hmmm... that's a bit muddled. What I mean is, there only ever was, and only ever will have been, ONE Lews Therin. There is only one and will only ever be one Rand al'Thor, but The Dragon as a ... object is the wrong word. As an entity, i guess, but still the wrong word. The Dragon as a necessary character, will be born again and again and again.

 

Rand doesnt have 'the Dragon's' voice in his head, he has Lews Therin's voice - the person, Lews Therin. But Rand IS the Dragon, as an object. He has LTT's voice as LTT was the last Dragon, an object again.

 

It stands to reason that if Rand doesnt Break the World once and for all, the NEXT Dragon may well have Rand AND Lews Therin to deal with.

 

I'm still not making sense.

 

Hmmmm... The Queen, as a true and patriotic Brit, I'll use the Queen.

 

Elizabeth Windsor is the Queen. Victoria was also the Queen, but that doesnt mean that she and Elizabeth share a soul. If the Queen had the voice of Victoria in her head, that would be because of the title / position instilled up on her, not because they shared a soul.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Its all personal, but that's how i see it!

[balefireruinssteaks]

You mean like the Dragon is a force unto itself...like the Phoenix of X-men.

 

The Phoenix took the personality and form, and the very life of Jean Grey but wielded enormous power.  Of course, she went mad but even after Jean came back for the six hundredth time or so, she could still tap into the Phoenix power.

 

Likewise, Rand would then be the "host" for the Dragon, and LTT before him. 

 

The problem is I think that "The Dragon Reborn" goes off of reincarnation, which simply means that a person's soul takes on a new "host" and lives out whatever consequences of karma their former life created.  In this series, it's more that LTT died and was "reborn" as Rand al'Thor and (just like regression therapy where people sometimes come in contact with their past lives supposedly) Rand begins to hear LTT in his mind.  He's a part of Rand's soul, or perhaps he IS Rand, and Rand IS Lews Therin. 

 

This is why all the information in the Age of Legends is buried in Rand's psyche and comes out spontaneously as he needs it.  It's almost instinctive.  Rand tells Asmodean that Sammael baited him at Sarendehar, but suddenly realizes that he's never heard of Sarendehar.  It was LTT's information drifting up; and sometimes in Rand's case it's LTT actually telling him what's going on.

 

I like the Phoenix/Dragon theory but I think Rand has Lews Therin living in his psyche somewhere.  It just seems like that is the right answer.

[Luthine]

Rand begins to hear LTT in his mind.  He's a part of Rand's soul, or perhaps he IS Rand, and Rand IS Lews Therin. 

 

That makes a lot of sense, of course, it also gives evidence to Semi's statment of Rand being insane. Which doesn't mean she's telling the whole truth. After all, Semi is a Master ès torture and manipulation and I can totally picture her twisting the truth just so that she hits near enough home to be believed and make everyone doubt Rand.

 

Also, she mentions people hearing voices as being a common affliction during AoL so we can assume that Aes Sedai of this time should have encountered just as many cases during the 3rd Age. Which, as far as we know, doesn't seem to be the case.

[Shaidar]

There was a debate about this a few months ago. I think it is a bit odd, but I personally think that the Dragon is not really a soul, it's an object. THE Dragon. However the only way to have this necessary object is to utilise a soul. LTT was the first soul (that we know the name of) to be the vassel of the Dragon, and Rand al'Thor is the second soul.

 

That's a very interesting theory. So over enough turnings of the Wheel, everybody will eventually get the chance to be a Dragon? (Assuming souls are finite, the DO never wins and destroys the Wheel, etc).

[Mr Ares]

There was a debate about this a few months ago. I think it is a bit odd, but I personally think that the Dragon is not really a soul, it's an object. THE Dragon. However the only way to have this necessary object is to utilise a soul. LTT was the first soul (that we know the name of) to be the vassel of the Dragon, and Rand al'Thor is the second soul.

The problem comes when people misunderstand the way the term soul is used in WoT. Souls are reborn, but their attendant personalities are not. So LTT and Rand are different personalities but the same soul, and that same Dragon soul is reborn again and again with a new face and personality each time.

 

Also, no-one is suggesting (in real life) that Elizabeth II is the reincarnation of her great-great-grandmother, so that analogy is somewhat flawed.

 

Also, she mentions people hearing voices as being a common affliction during AoL

No, she mentions it as being rare.

[Brooke]

Okay I've been rereading the third book and I found some very interesting things in here. Forget the voice for just a second. If you forget about it we can draw some really interesting parallels to the other main characters and what Rand has been doing and going threw.

 

First lets go with those we know can channel. Egween and Nyneave. There is a scene in the third book where Eggy, Ny, and Elaine go to look at the 13 Black Ajah possesions. Egwene has a ball of light and she's not sure how she does it at first, but she manages to attached the ball of light to the wall. Elaine watches Egwene do it, then does it herself. From watching Elaine Egwene learns what she did. Fast foward a couple hundred pages. The three of them have just been attacked by men with slings and are about to be sold to Myrdraal. Nyneave uses Bailfire and does not know how she does it. From these two scenes we can reasonably conclude that even though some one who channels does not know exactly what thye are doing can manage to do a great deal without the past memories or teachings of some one else.

 

Now let's look at Mat (a particular obsession of mine right now). I could be wrong about this, but Mat really doesn't start using the Old Tongue until he has been seperated by the rubby dagger with some serious healing. Also after that healing is when he first gets his ancient battle memories. I am inclined to think he is seeing himself in a past life. After that healing new things start to happen to him, I think some how the amount of the power the Aes Sedai had to use on him has pulled out something of his past. So Rand is not the only one that has had the a lot of power running threw him that can remember much of what he did in a past life if you take the above as being true.

 

As long as you except those two things you limit what the voice in Rands head actually is. There is a lot of people talking to themselves, and RJ usually discribes it as "A little voice inside said..." So maybe Rand really did give the little voice inside him a name and it's own personality. It maybe be making him crazier than he really is, but it also probably helps keep him sane at the same time. With as much arguing with himself that he does it may make it easier on him to think he's arguing with some one else. The only thing this does not explain are the episodes where Rand does not have control of himself or the flow of saidin. But at least we know the self teaching and the memories of the past are not isolated to just him. The rest I leave in more knowledable hands to explain.

[trakand_01]

I dont want to pull your theory apart too much, but with Mat, it was actually after he went through the doorway in Rhuidean that he got the memories. He went to the world of the Finns and they asked him what he wanted, he said he wanted the holes in his memory filling. So they filled them, but with other people's memories. It is important to remember that the memories are not MAT's memories, nor are they his past lives (we don't know if he's had any); they are quite literally other men's memories, in his head.

 

He actually started speaking in the Old Tongue much longer before that. I think the first time we see it (I may be wrong but it's the first time I remember it) is when the band (Moiraine, Lan, Mat, Perrin, Rand, Egwene, Nynaeve) come across a Myrdraal and Trollocs, the battle where Perrin is almost pulled from his saddle before Lan kills the Myrdraal, and all the Trollocs 'linked' to it die. Mat launches himself into battle and shouts, I can't remember but I think it was "Tai'shar Manetheren!" but has no idea what he's said.

 

With the weaves, Rand quite often forms some concoction of the power with no idea of what it is he's forming, or where he got it from - LTT is the only answer he can come up with.

 

With the power, it is such a dynamic thing, just a teeny weeny bit more air right there in a weave could change what the weave was meant to do into something completely different, which makes it completely understandable that especially in times of stress, the channeler could throw something together instinctively and make... something... but they have no idea what, and because they weren't concentrating when they made it, would struggle to do it again, intentionally.

[Guest Dreadlord]

About the Dragon being an object, thats wrong. The Dragon is Lews Therin-thats it. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, the next life of the Dragon. Lews Therin was not a host for the Dragon, otherwise he would be called the Dragon Host, and Rand would be the Dragon Host Reborn. Yes, Rand and Lews Therins souls are the same, this was cofirmed by RJ I believe, but a soul is equally as much a part of a person as the body, if not more so. Rand isn't a host for Lews Therins soul, he IS Lews Therins soul, just under a different name and at a different time. The reason the Dragon keeps turning up to fight for the Light is that history is repeating itself, so it stands to reason that the same bloke would fight the same war, regardless of his name

[Brooke]

I dont want to pull your theory apart too much, but with Mat, it was actually after he went through the doorway in Rhuidean that he got the memories. He went to the world of the Finns and they asked him what he wanted, he said he wanted the holes in his memory filling. So they filled them, but with other people's memories. It is important to remember that the memories are not MAT's memories, nor are they his past lives (we don't know if he's had any); they are quite literally other men's memories, in his head.

 

He may have spoke the Old Tongue in book one for the first time (I started rereading again at book two because book one is packed away with most of my belongings at the moment), but I know for a fact that you are wrong about the memories. I literally just reread book two and three, and I promise you, the first full length memorie of much significance (as long as there is not one in the first book) is right after he gets seperated from the SL dagger in the White Tower. It's the first time I can think of him saying, in a memory or as himself, "Time to roll the dice." I'll go back and look up the page number if you'd like.

 

EDIT: I will agree that after his visit to the Finn's he had more memories than before that filled in those gaps, but they were not the first of ancient times. But I guess what I'm trying to stress is that Rand is not the only character that has a dead man's memories, and Mat seems to be showing signs of having ancient memories before any one else. The only difference, if you go from before the visit to the Finn's is that Mat never has a dead man's voice, he only has his memories and language in his head; however, Rand eventually gets the voice as well as the memories. The question is why would one get that voice and a power struggle for control of the body and one would not. Is it because of a splitting of the self, is it because of the one power, or is it imaginary and one is mad and one can just remember stuff long gone by.

 

With the weaves, Rand quite often forms some concoction of the power with no idea of what it is he's forming, or where he got it from - LTT is the only answer he can come up with.

 

But he starts doing this before LTT shows up. He comes up with this theory long after he's already taught himself a great deal. Yet another example to back up the fact that people can teach themselves things is that Egwene first learns to tie off a weave and let it stand by itself in T'A'R while facing Joiya (I believe) when she is trying to find a way to get out of her cell in the stone. Rand does this for the first time on his own while trapping the First of Mayene in his room at towards the beginning of book 4 right before that bubble of evil has his own reflections coming after him. If Nyneave and her accidently producing balefire wasn't a good example, there's just one more. he doesn't have to have LTT to learn, he just has to experiment and do, then remember what he does.

 

At the end of book three Ba'alzamon tries to rip his soul out of his body. If LTT is real and sperate and not just a name to the voice in Rand's head, is it possible that the attempt to tear Rand's soul out actually made it split a little? Does any one know when the voice in Rand's head stops being just a voice in his head and starts being LTT exactly (or at least when Rand realizes it)?