Something Semirhage Said

[Guest Dreadlord]

OK guys Im going off my memory here but Im pretty sure I have everything in there accurately on this.

 

In Knife of Dreams after Semirhage blows Rands hand off and is then captured, she tells Cadsuane and everyone about Lews Therin. She explains that the voice is real, but the fact that the voice is real is confirmation that Rand is mad, not confirmation of his sanity. She says that, according to Graendal, some people who are insane have a connection to their past lives, and can hear the voice of who they used to be. Prime example, Rand and Lews Therin obviously.

 

So in other words, while she does say that SOME people who are mad can hear the voice of their past lives, that, in my opinion, means that Rands connection to Lews Therins' thoughts isn't solely down to the fact that he is the prophesied Dragon Reborn; it is simply that he is mad enough for the connection between them to be created. This is backed up by the fact that Rand doesn't hear Lews Therins voice until he starts channeling.

 

Granted, Semirhage herself wouldn't know for sure about it seeing as her talents seem to lie in other areas, but she specifically mentions that Graendal "could explain it better," I assume that means Graendal conveyed enough info on the subject that Semirhage knew enough to say what she did. I can see no reason why Graendal would lie about something like this as there seems to be nothing to gain from lying about it.

 

So, does anyone think there is another person who can hear the voice of their past life in the series, other than Rand? Or is there some reason not to believe Semirhage?

 

Thoughts please, if you have any.

[Jehaine]

Mat is the most obvious example :P

 

Other than that, i don't see why Semirhage would lie on this... Though only Graendel would know the finer details of course. Semirhage could always simply be wrong about this after all.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

mat's 'condition' is NOTHING like what semirhage is referring to.  he is suffering from a strong spiritual influence due to his 'old blood'(this is why he randomly spoke the old tongue) and his military memories are a result of the eelfinn artificially implanting them in his head.  this is NOTHING like having the voice of your past reincarnation in your head.

[Jehaine]

Yeah i know, just kidding, since Mat doesn't actually hear voices XD

[xander]

While it is true that those considered insane do hear voices I seriously doubt that Rand is insane.

 

Some folks asked why Semirhage would lie, I would like to ask why she would tell the truth?  Her sole purpose is too do damage to Rand.  She just tried to kill the poor guy.  She couldn't accomplish that goal but shaking the faith of those around Rand could almost be just as good.  If she can get those close to him to question his decisions and thought processes then she has won a victory for the DO.  Even a split second of hesitation by someone at the right time could have disastrous consequences. 

 

I believe his constant worry about his sanity coupled with his never wavering desire to end this mess is proof of his sanity.  He cleansed the source and has manipulated nobles throughout the land to fulfill his will.  He is preparing for a battle the likes of which has never been fought.  He is as sane as anyone in his position could be.

 

Don't forget that the forsaken are liars, one and all.  They cant even trust each other so how could we trust anything that one who has just been defeated and taken prisioner has to say?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Semirhage said 'Graendal could explain it better.' I take from this that Graendal has told Semirhage at least the bit she mentions, and seeing as she said graendal said it, I believe it to be true.

 

As to why Semirhage would tell the truth? Her telling people about Lews Therin would have done more damage, in her eyes, than not mentioning that Rand is due to hear voices. If people think Rand is mad (indeed some do anyway) then surely they would be less likely to follow him-that is Semirhages reason for telling the truth.

 

Another thing. Just because someone is on the evil/bad side doesnt mean they are incapable of telling the truth. Sure, they are more likely to lie, but that isnt a rule.

 

Finally, how can people say Rand isnt insane? He is far from the sanest of characters in the series. I agree that in the later books he seems to get a hold of himself abit (and that is NOTHING to do with the Cleansing-that merely prevents the madness from getting worse, not get rid of the madness they had already got from channeling Saidin) but judging from the ammount of Saidin Rand has channelled throughout I think it is fair to say he isnt fully sane

[trakand_01]

Verin is often described as seeming to be listening to something no-one else can hear.

 

Also Dashiva/Osan'gar spent a lot of time talking to himself.

[xander]

As to why Semirhage would tell the truth? Her telling people about Lews Therin would have done more damage, in her eyes, than not mentioning that Rand is due to hear voices. If people think Rand is mad (indeed some do anyway) then surely they would be less likely to follow him-that is Semirhages reason for telling the truth

 

That's sort of my point.  Rand isn't insane simply because she says he is.  She would simply be seeking to shake the foundations of his followers by saying that he hears LTT's voice in his head.  And from their reactions, it worked.

 

Just because she and we know that he can hear that voice doesn't mean that he is nuts.  It really is the voice of the Dragon and not some warbling thing telling him to wear ladies shoes. 

 

So, did she tell the truth?  Yes, partially.  He hears LTT's voice.  But was that truth somewhat tainted and twisted to her purpose?  Most definately.

[Jonn]

Insanity implies that a person is psychotic. A psychotic person is one who has lost touch with reality and is a danger to themselves and others, because of this condition.

 

Now, I don't believe Semirhage is lying about the fact that Lews Therin's voice is real. This is obvious, otherwise how would Rand have figured out those complicated ancient weaves? How would he know as much as he does so quickly? No, the voice in his head is real.

 

I actually think that confirmation that the voice is real from the outside may help Rand. In this way, he no longer has the pressure of hiding his condition and there can be more understanding of his actions as he's having an "episode". Someone like Min being close by and maintaining the warder bond could help to keep Rand from retreating within himself, help to allow him to not struggle with it alone.

 

With such conditions the first step is to be able to acknowledge openly that there is a problem. Then through counseling and treatment, there can be some measure of control of the symptoms.

 

Rand is remarkably resilient and is usually able to cope with the strain of being in his position, but the struggle with Lews Theirn is eventually the thing that is going to drive him past the bounds of sanity.

[marcbreault]

If I were next to Rand I'd be glad LTT was around because LTT knows a lot.  I think, after the taint was cleansed people stopped worrying about men going insane - the ones who believed it was cleansed anyway.  Semirhage is trying to instill worry in Rand's followers because I think she says those people who hear voices from their past lives descend into madness.  So basically she's saying:  "Just because the taint was cleansed doesn't meant the Dragon Reborn won't go mad.  In fact, he is well on his way now."

 

It was very important for the forsaken to know whether LTT was speaking to Rand and they argued about this in earlier books.  If RAND was on his own, then he could know nothing about the power really, but if LTT were around, mad or not, that is a whole different ballgame and the fact LTT is around in Rand's head really scares the forsaken, particularly if he takes Rand over.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

If I were next to Rand I'd be glad LTT was around because LTT knows a lot.  I think, after the taint was cleansed people stopped worrying about men going insane - the ones who believed it was cleansed anyway.

 

Hmmmm... this is the same LTT who was/is known as Kinslayer? Not too sure I'd be happy being around him.

 

As for the rest, I thought it was pretty well established that the cleansing merely meant that the channeler wouldn't get worse. Given that Rand is already a touch suspect and that he is the most powerful male channler, with access to Calandor and the like ... I'd certainly be looking over my shoulder.

[Mr Ares]

Some folks asked why Semirhage would lie, I would like to ask why she would tell the truth?

Semirhage said 'Graendal could explain it better.' I take from this that Graendal has told Semirhage at least the bit she mentions, and seeing as she said graendal said it, I believe it to be true.

Semi would lie or tell the truth depending on which would do the greater harm to Rand. If she is telling the truth or if she is lying makes no difference to the reference to Graendal. Mentioning an expert in these things is going to make her case stronger - but that doesn't mean that Graendal ever actually said anything of the sort. As it is, we can't judge the truth or otherwise of Semi's statements based solely on those statements, we have to look at the evidence. That evidence being Rand's mental state. If we look at that and conclude that Rand appears mad, then we can use Semi's statements to back up our opinion. If we see the evidence indicating that Rand isn't mad, we say that Semi was lying (or just mistaken - Semi may have intended her comments maliciously, but was being honest about what she said, only what she said was based on a misinterpretation of something Graendal had told her).

[marcbreault]

What always puzzled me about that whole scene in KoD is the fact Semirhage doesn't seem ruffled at all being a prisoner.  Why not?  I suppose she could just be pretending to be cool about it, but she seems very composed about the whole thing.  I mean, from her point of view she set out to kill Rand and failed and was captured in the process.  Jordan's narration of the scene indicates she is genuinely surprised when her disguise is revealed.  I can only conclude then that she figured if she failed and were captured, she could still do damage, but what?  She is probably the most feared of all the forsaken because no one wants to be tortured by the best.  Even if she knew LTT and Rand didn't like killing women, both might make an exception for her.  LTT probably would in a heartbeat and frankly, that's probably one woman for whom you do make an exception.

 

so here's a possible, though I admit unlikely scenario.  What if she decides to try to help Rand deal with LTT in his head or at least try to convince him she can.  She knows more about this than anyone.  Rand was nearly taken over in KoD and Rand also knows LTT wants to die and probably wouldn't mind taking Rand with him in doing so.  For her part, Semirhage had better have a good plan for handling herself in captivity or the Dark One might just arrange for an accident.  She will choose life over that.  She might not turn to the light, but she might use her knowledge of voices in the head to bargain for her life and she could even do so with Rand's followers who don't want the Dragon Reborn to tip over the edge.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I personally thought she acted calm because she thinks it unlikely that she will be killed; she knows she can supply a lot of knowledge. Maybe she feels she can manipulate Rand as a prisoner

[trakand_01]

Wasnt Semirhage a doctor, who specialised in the workings of the mind / brain? and Graendal was a physcologist. Then Semirhage studied the pleasure / pain sensors in the brain and started torturing people using these.

 

Perhaps she believes that she can convince them to let her 'study' Rand, and then perhaps do him some damage.

 

Or maybe she and Graendal have an as-yet-not-revealed plan for situations such as this.

 

The thing that I feel confident about here though is that Cadsuane has always known that Rand hears voices. She likely didnt know it was LTT, but one of the first things she said to Rand was "Do you hear the voices yet?", to rattle him. She spent a lot of time studying men who can channel.

 

I think Cadsuane will counter whatever Semi has up her sleeve.

 

As for being surprised when her disguise is shot, I'm just reading the beginning of book 10 so I've only met 'Anath' for a few chapters but I have to say, even if i didnt already know who she was, it wouldnt be too difficult to figure out!

 

She could at least have hidden as a white woman, who had a pleasant disposition. A vicious black woman isnt a great disguise for a vicious black woman!  ;D

[wvlr]

We and most of Rand's associates understand that Rand is crazy.    So that is no special revelation.    What they did not have is an understanding of his affliction.  Semi did not have to get her info from Grendal - Lanfear described Rand's many levels of knowledge that he could only have gotten from LTT.

 

Also Semi has been a captive before in the AoL and she (I think) scared her guards so badly that they let her go - so she has good reason to be "cool" now.    Add to that the fact that she knows that the DO has saved and given out several bodies already so she has a significant safety net.    Why would she NOT be cool.

 

What she said may well be true - but more likely it is only spiked with truth - like any good lie, to weaken Rand and his group.    I see no reason for her to tell but the smallest of truths - in an effort to weaken the opposition.

[Bazzles]

Wasnt Semirhage a doctor, who specialised in the workings of the mind / brain?

 

She was the most skilled healer with the OP during her time in the AoL, but I dunno about specialising in the the mind/brain. She used to torture her patients even while healing them and she was going to be made swear an oath or be severed from the source due to this practice when she fled and joined the DO.

 

Graendal was indeed a famed psychiatrist during the AoL, which is why Semi mentioned that she would "be a ble to explain it better".

[Luckers]

What she said may well be true - but more likely it is only spiked with truth - like any good lie, to weaken Rand and his group.    I see no reason for her to tell but the smallest of truths - in an effort to weaken the opposition.

 

Except that every aspect of what she said--which is the majority of it--we can actually verify as truth. Rand is indeed hearing a voice, it is indeed a real voice, it is indeed that of Lews Therin.

 

Of the two parts we can't verify--that a terminal descent into madness can be abrupt, and that Graendal had told her of occurences of it in the Age of Legends--are both reasonably supported. Rand has been growing increasingly unstable, and Graendal was a reknowned psychiatrist and would more than probably have had encounters with this encounters with this specific condition.

 

Keep in mind that the effects of the Taint are not mystical. The Taint merely destablizes an individuals mental state, allowing for pre-existing conditions to manifest. It's why we encounter such diversity in the effects of the Taint. As such any of these effects could have been seen without the Taint, and therefore Graendal in her hundreds of years of specialising in psychiatry probably would have encountered, or at least learnt about it.

 

I see no reason for her to tell but the smallest of truths - in an effort to weaken the opposition.

 

I don't know... Semirhage has a peculiar sense of integrity. Just as she pronounced herself--in front of sul'dam who could impact all of her efforts--so does she speak the truth then. I mean don't get me wrong i suspect she would lie if she felt it beneficial, but without a very specific need... well i think she feels the reality is more than enough, both about herself and whatever she decides to achieve.

 

So yeah, i see it the other way around. I see no reason for her to tell but the smallest of lies - in an effort to weaken the opposition.

[Harmless Bandit]

I wish I knew what 'crazy', 'mad', 'nuts' etc meant. Rand is sure reckless, and he can be described as somewhat unstable, but he still has a fairly firm grip on reality. There are a few cases (notably when he is wielding Callandor) where he seems to go overboard, but I am not sure he qualifies for the aforementioned adjectives.

 

His thought processes (what little we see) seem clear and concise to me, not something I would expect from a mad guy, but then I don't claim to know the reasoning of such an individual.

 

It's possible Semirhage's tale was the truth, but I feel she added in a few lies. IMHO there is a chance (however slim) that Rand might search for a way out of his predicament ('madness'), at least in her eyes, and she can't risk him doing that. A few lies here or there would effectively send him in the wrong direction.

[Guest Dreadlord]

So maybe Semirhage WOULD lie about it, I suppose it does sounds reasonable after all that. Semirhage knows from Lanfear/Cyndane that Rand hears Lews Therins voice, and thought to lie about that, saying that most madmen hear the voice of their past lives in order to make Rand more paranoid than he already is

[Luckers]

Except, again, everything she said that we can verify has been the truth, and even everything that we can't verify is backed up by information that suggests it to be the truth.

 

Additionally Semirhage never said that most madmen hear real voices, she states that it has occured in the past, and that it only occurse 'very rarely'. Beyond that, though, how does her telling him that he hears a real voice make him paranoid?

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Except, again, everything she said that we can verify has been the truth, and even everything that we can't verify is backed up by information that suggests it to be the truth

UNQUOTE

 

Exactly. Thats why I put the thread on-my brother and I were debating about this, my bro saying she was lying while I was saying that everything she said has happened.

[Luckers]

I am confused. You state that you now think it likely that she did lie, then state that you hold to your initial position that she didn't? And again, what did your comments mean when you suggested that Semirhages statement that he heard a real voice would be designed to make him paranoid?

[Guest Dreadlord]

That about hearing a real voice, Lanfear has said Rand knows things that only Lews Therin would, right? I was saying that maybe Semi WOULD lie about Lews Therin-if Semi made Rand think he heard LTTs voice because he was insane, then it would make Rand paranoid. That would be a good reason for her to lie about it, although I still dont think she WAS lying. I was saying I can now see why she would, I didnt say I thought she was lying though

[Luckers]

But Semirhage said she thought he heard LTT's voice as a real voice--that it was really LTT. It might make sense for her to have claimed that LTT was merely the result of Rand's insanity, but she didn't.

 

I'm honestly confused--she was truthful about Rand hearing a real voice, we can verify that... and nothing in what she said seemed especially designed in making Rand paranoid. Rand knows that he hears LTT's voice because he is insane, or rather mentally unstable due to the taint, though i doubt the destinction occurs to him--but he also knows its a real voice... why would Semirhage saying it make him paranoid?