Ta'veren - a very clever idea!

[trakand_01]

It is possible for darkfriends to be ta'veren, it is just not very likely.

 

Why? -- Not trying to be difficult, but I'm curious.

 

 

Ta'veren are spun out by the Wheel, to do something specific, fulfil a duty, right? (Honestly, is that right, I may be wrong!?) Well, I don't believe that the Creator wrote the Dark One into the Pattern, so his followers weren't written in either but, people are people and follow right or wrong as they see fit.

 

So surely it's not in the Wheel's best interests to spin out a ta'veren who is a darkfriend? However a ta'veren could turn to the dark.

[The Lost One]

So surely it's not in the Wheel's best interests to spin out a ta'veren who is a darkfriend? However a ta'veren could turn to the dark.

 

If a ta'veren did turn dark, would they be ta'veren much longer?  I have read here that ta'veren is only for a period of time to make corrections or adjustments to the pattern.  If they turned to the dark one and no longer were making the adjustments the pattern had intended, would their ta'verenism fade away?  or would they still make the adjustments the pattern needs, just not wanting to?

 

Just a thought that crossed my mind when I saw that last post.

 

 

[Majsju]

Quote from: Majsju on Today at 12:48:10 PM

It is possible for darkfriends to be ta'veren, it is just not very likely.

 

 

Why? -- Not trying to be difficult, but I'm curious.

 

Love the Blog ;D

 

The Wheel creates ta’veren at need, making someone who is already alive one.  You aren’t born ta’veren.  Can you imagine being around a ta’veren who is teething?    It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.  I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.  Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.  And, no, ta’veren is not Old Tongue for Deus ex machina.  It came out of musings on luck, charismatic leaders, and the theory of the indispensable man

 

So we have confirmation that darkfriends can be ta'veren, and that it is unlikely. The question is how a darkfriend can be deemed as a proper choice, considering that their goal (or at least their boss goal) contradicts the Pattern. To me, the logical explanation would be that in a scenario where a df is considered an option, the Wheel considers the correction(s) that are to be made by far outweighs the potential damage the df ta'veren can cause, and that the df in question is the best choice to make the correction(s) happen. But that is just my guess, I fear we will never get a real answer to that one.

[HoppyQ]

If a Ta'veren is used to make adjustments/corrections in the wheel, isn't it possible that there would be times where too much 'good' exists and a df ta'veren would be needed to correct against it in order to maintain a balance?

[Majsju]

If a Ta'veren is used to make adjustments/corrections in the wheel, isn't it possible that there would be times where too much 'good' exists and a df ta'veren would be needed to correct against it in order to maintain a balance?

 

I think human nature would make a thing like "too much good" more or less impossible.

 

But also, the opposite of a DF ta'veren would not be a "good" ta'veren. It is rather people like the ones we are reading about, Rand, Mat and Perrin. While they are working for the greater good, they have all shown to be more than capable of acts that does not quite fit on the brighter side of the morality scale. And these three lads are still a bit closer to the good side than most people.

[HoppyQ]

I think human nature would make a thing like "too much good" more or less impossible.

 

Have you ever been to Disney World? ;D

[Majsju]

I think human nature would make a thing like "too much good" more or less impossible.

 

Have you ever been to Disney World? ;D

 

Fortunatly not.

I thought anything Disney was evidence that ultimate evil exist...So proving that Good exist would be to burn Disneyworld to the ground. Hmmm, I see a plan forming... ;D

[trakand_01]

I havent been either, although I've been told it's full of those evil little things, short, scream on their way towards you... banshees... no, that's not it... CHILDREN!! that's it! Worse - other people's children!

[HoppyQ]

I've got the matches, quick pile the dwarves and mice. And grab the wooden boy, we'll use him for kindling. :o

 

Kind of getting back on subject.  I agree that ta'veren was a good catch all to make odd things more believable, but I think a lot of authors, RJ included, also use prophesies in the same way.  Most of the time you only get bits and pieces of the prophesy as you go along so there's always the chance for them to change it to fit.  That way something improbable can be written off as "it happened in accordance with prophesy."

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jordan gave himself:

 

Prophesy.

Foretelling.

Dreaming.

Viewings.

taverenism.

 

Whatever unlikely thing happens, there's a bin for it to fit into.

[Majsju]

Indeed. But in my eyes, RJ handled this exceptionally well. Ta'veren is not all ftw, there is a balance. Yes, you will have luck, and awesome thins will happen to you. But occasionally it will also backfire, and you never know which one it will be next time.

 

And the Prophecies tell us a bit of what will happen, but basically nothing about how it will happen. And a great deal of the Prophecies can only be understood once the event has actually happened.

 

All in all, a good balance to it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Dang, I forgot Bubbles of Evil.

 

People do things that would normally be out-of-character due to those also.

[Desora]

I agree Ta’veren is really ingenious, it really makes the book.  Coincidences can only go so far without seeming unbelievable, it’s funny how that one word changes everything.

 

I wonder if Rand couldn’t have been born Ta’veren?  I couldn’t find a thread about this, but this seems a good spot.

 

In Gitara’s fortelling: “He is born again!” Gitara cried, “I feel him! The dragon takes his first breath on the slope of Dragonmount! He is coming! He is coming! Light help us! Light help the world! He lies in the slow and cries like the thunder!  He burns like the sun!” (pg 28, NS)

 

This made me remember a line said by Siuan in The Great Hunt when she speaks of seeing the glow of ta'veren around Rand: “Moiraine, he blazed like the sun.” (pg 68, TGH)

 

I know this is flimsy so feel free to debunk it.  In fact the foretelling could just be saying he will be a strong ta'veren.

 

I agree with the theory that Rand became Ta’veren weeks before Moiraine came to the Two Rivers, and I think I remember reading something saying RJ confirmed it, but I can’t find it.  

 

[trakand_01]

I'm afraid RJ explicitly stated that Ta'veren are not born, they are made at some point in their lives. I think he actually said 'can you imagine a Ta'veren teething?' which is a good point.

 

With Rand and the sun, yes Siuan could 'see' him, as could Logain but there are many connections between Rand and the Sun - he is Lord of the Morning, 'twice will dawn the day' and so on.

 

I always thought Gitara was talking about LTT's soul, that she could feel it and she knew it had been reborn.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

And Rand did not become ta'veren until shortly before Moiraine showed up in the Two Rivers, so he picked up the void before that

UNQUOTE

 

The fact that he became Ta'veren just before Moiraines arrival has been confirmed by RJ, but Ta'veren has nothing at all to do with the Void. The Void is a technique taught to Rand by Tam, which allows extreme concentration. Warders and Blademasters use it, it is sometimes called the Oneness, but it has nothing at all to do with Ta'veren-anyone can learn to assume the Void. Rand uses the Void not only in swordfighting but also when he channels. There has never been a mention in the books that links the Void specifically to Ta'veren