Setalle Anan = Brown Ajah

[dyehead]

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but I think Setalle Anan was the brown sister discussed in a previous book; the one who burned herself out while testing ter'angreal...  That's why she showed such an interest in Mat's medallion.  After which she admitted to being Aes Sedai and leaving the tower only for her husband to save her life by taking her in, etc.

 

Agree/Disagree?

 

Do you think she'll get healed and be able to channel again?

[Luckers]

Her name was Martine Jenata and its pretty much the consensus that she was indeed.

[Setalle]

Huh? I thought everyone thought she was Corianin Nedeal?

[dlan4327]

Huh? I thought everyone thought she was Corianin Nedeal?

 

I was under the impression Corianin Nedeal died hundreds of years ago. I could be wrong but I'm sure it says that somewhere in the books.

[icspots]

Huh? I thought everyone thought she was Corianin Nedeal?

 

I was under the impression Corianin Nedeal died hundreds of years ago. I could be wrong but I'm sure it says that somewhere in the books.

 

I believe it was 473 years as of TSR (Egwene's POV while dreamwalking in Tanchico).

 

It's impossible for it to be Corianin for several reasons.  One if she had been stilled/burned out then she would no longer have a power enhanced life and would have died a long long time ago.  Second if she was still alive and wasn't stilled/burned out then she'd still be bound by the oaths and would look ageless, also if still bound by the oaths then she most likely would have died by now since "binding" halves the life of the bound.  The oldest Aes Sedai we know if is I believe Cadsuane who is somewhat over 300 and everyone thinks she's dead.  I don't think there's anyway Corianan could have lived to be 473, not even including however old she was before she 'died'.

 

She's totally Martine... my opinion of course.

[nashdude]

She's totally Martine... my opinion of course.

 

Isn't she SPECIFICALLY named as Martine in KoD?

[balefireruinssteaks]

Corianin was the last known Dreamer in the Tower, and she did indeed die about 473 years ago.

 

which makes it more likely that she is the suggested Brown Sister.

 

I am curious though if she was burned out how she was able to sense what she could when she put on the a'dam.  Even though she could not create any sensations of pain with it or do anything, I wondered if that meant that her ability could still be restored (even though being burned out makes it impossible for one to even sense the Source)

[Luckers]

Isn't she SPECIFICALLY named as Martine in KoD?

 

No, but she did salivate all over Mat's ter'angreal which is a very Martine thing to do.

 

I am curious though if she was burned out how she was able to sense what she could when she put on the a'dam.  Even though she could not create any sensations of pain with it or do anything, I wondered if that meant that her ability could still be restored (even though being burned out makes it impossible for one to even sense the Source)

 

Concidering Cyndane was burned out and healed, it seems possible. Personally i feel that Settelle will play a big part with the Seanchan and Tuon, whether she's healed or not--but if she's healed it will be all that much cooler.

[Majsju]

Concidering Cyndane was burned out and healed, it seems possible. Personally i feel that Settelle will play a big part with the Seanchan and Tuon, whether she's healed or not--but if she's healed it will be all that much cooler.

 

I am not 100% convinced that Cyndane was Healed from being burned out. Why would the new body be affected by what happened to the old?

[balefireruinssteaks]

Perhaps it only works partially if the person being Healed is a victim of burn-out.

 

Like if a man heals another man, it only works to a small portion as with Nyneave Healing Siuan and Leane.  A stilled woman must be Healed by a man to achieve her former strength, a gentled man must be Healed by a woman to achieve his former strength.  Perhaps a victim of burn-out can only be Healed partially.

[Luckers]

Because the channeling state holds through the tranmigratory process--as we have seen by Aran'gar, not to mention the others strengths have all remained exactly consistant.

 

This isn't rebirth, it isn't a complete restart. Transmigration by its very name is a consistant linked process.

 

And Cyndane doesn't require that explanation since at the time in question only women knew how to heal being severed.

 

 

[Majsju]

Because the channeling state holds through the tranmigratory process--as we have seen by Aran'gar, not to mention the others strengths have all remained exactly consistant.

 

I don't see that as being the same thing. We know that the ability to channel is both soul and genetic. From what we have seen throughout the books, people are reborn as the same gender, which could mean that the soul is set to either Saidin or Saidar. In the case of Aran'gar, that means the male soul determines what she channels, not what body the soul is currently wearing.

 

And I can't see why stilling would affect the body, but burning out would affect the soul. And even if burning out did affect the soul, how the shadow, who did not know how to heal stilling, ie the body, could out of the blue come up with how to heal the soul.

[BrainFireBob]

Burned out and stilling, as I recall Jordan's answers, are both "cured" in the next life.

 

Cyndane could have been stilled in her new body as punishment.

[Luckers]

I don't see that as being the same thing. We know that the ability to channel is both soul and genetic. From what we have seen throughout the books, people are reborn as the same gender, which could mean that the soul is set to either Saidin or Saidar. In the case of Aran'gar, that means the male soul determines what she channels, not what body the soul is currently wearing.

 

Yet the others remain exactly at their original strength too. Why would one aspect of one part of one persons ability to channel be affected by the body, but not that same aspect in others--including Aran'gar who irrespective of the souls predilections was in a female body which should have affected his channeling if the body affects channeling in such a way.

 

In ever other incident the strength remained static, yet in Cyndane, who we know was burned out, there was a decrease in strength, which is something we've only ever seen in someone severed and healed by their own gender.

 

And I can't see why stilling would affect the body, but burning out would affect the soul. And even if burning out did affect the soul, how the shadow, who did not know how to heal stilling, ie the body, could out of the blue come up with how to heal the soul.

 

What? Who suggested any of that? Stilling AND burning out effect the soul, not the body.

 

And mate, the Shadow DID know how to heal being severed. Every sister in Salidar was trained in it, and who knows how many were black. By that stage sisters had already attached the privacy custom to Travelling and all it would take then is a simple dream message to Aran'gar and a command to some Dark Yellow.

 

Burned out and stilling, as I recall Jordan's answers, are both "cured" in the next life.

 

Cyndane could have been stilled in her new body as punishment.

 

RJ was speaking of Rebirth, not transmigration. We know that there was no reset occuring here (since the facet personalities remained the same).

 

And that seems unlikely to me. Why go on to do that to someone you already have bound by cour'souvra?

[Majsju]

Yet the others remain exactly at their original strength too. Why would one aspect of one part of one persons ability to channel be affected by the body, but not that same aspect in others--including Aran'gar who irrespective of the souls predilections was in a female body which should have affected his channeling if the body affects channeling in such a way.

 

I must say I don't get what you are talking about here. Lets see if I get it right, when you say one aspect of the ability to channel being affected by the body, are you talking about the decrease in strength when healed by the same gender? In that case, it is quite simple with a bit of logical speculation. Since there is a genetic aspect to the ability to channel, there must be something in the body that allows you to channel. Think of it as a conduit. If someone of the opposite gender heals, the conduit is fully restored. But if someone of the same gender heals, the conduit is flawed, and can not support the same flow as before.

 

The conduit gives the physical ability to channel. The soul determines if you channel saidin or Saidar, as well as the  base strength.

 

In Cyndanes case, however, there are a few other details that might have resulted in her loss of power. The DO could have done it, as a punishment for her plans to betray him. For someone like Lanfear, even a smallish loss of power would be quite the slap in the face, but she would still be strong enough to be a player in TG. Her vacation with the Finns might have had something to do with it. We do not know.

 

What? Who suggested any of that? Stilling AND burning out effect the soul, not the body.

 

Judging from Nynaeves POV when she healed Logain, nu-uh.

 

And mate, the Shadow DID know how to heal being severed. Every sister in Salidar was trained in it, and who knows how many were black. By that stage sisters had already attached the privacy custom to Travelling and all it would take then is a simple dream message to Aran'gar and a command to some Dark Yellow.

 

I was talking of the situation before Nynaeve healed Logain.

Since the healing of stilling can't heal being burned out, you would have to first have a BA learn the weave, pass the knowledge along to a DF channeler able to spend a lot of time doing research on how to change the weave, and find the answer in a few weeks. There's about 7 weeks between Logains healing and Moghediens meeting with Moridin, where she sees him wearing another Mindtrap, and it does not seem likely he would carry around a third. neither is it likely Cyndane would be kept in a Mindtrap if she is unable to channel.

 

 

[Luckers]

I must say I don't get what you are talking about here. Lets see if I get it right, when you say one aspect of the ability to channel being affected by the body, are you talking about the decrease in strength when healed by the same gender?

 

No i was talking about the fact that there is absolutely no change in strength in the others who underwent transmigration. I was questioning why only Lanfear was effected by this influence of body on strength that you suggest exists.

 

In Cyndanes case, however, there are a few other details that might have resulted in her loss of power. The DO could have done it, as a punishment for her plans to betray him. For someone like Lanfear, even a smallish loss of power would be quite the slap in the face, but she would still be strong enough to be a player in TG. Her vacation with the Finns might have had something to do with it. We do not know.

 

Ah, the 'we do not know' argument. Well, for one we do know that Cyndane had already been leashed, and we do know the Dark One holds great writ in the strength and knowledge of his Second Age channelers, and we know the Dark One's position on punishment is not based in anger but rather in practical results. From that we can deduce that it is indeed extraordinarily unlikely for this to have been done to Cyndane by the Dark One.

 

The reality is that we do know enough for basic logical deduction. One, we know that Lanfear and Moiraine were almost certainly burned out, two we encounter Cyndane after that and she has a decreased strength, and three we have only ever seen a decrease in strength result from being severed. Logically, the most probable explanation is that she was severed and then healed--and that by some conciderable distance.

 

Sure it aint certain, but there are degrees of certainty, and crying 'we do not know' ignores all of them.

 

Quote

What? Who suggested any of that? Stilling AND burning out effect the soul, not the body.

 

Judging from Nynaeves POV when she healed Logain, nu-uh.

 

That's nice. Care to expand? Because i don't see any statements of physical damage in there.

 

I was talking of the situation before Nynaeve healed Logain.

 

Umm, why? This took place after Nynaeve healed Logain--Siuan and Leane too.

 

Since the healing of stilling can't heal being burned out, you would have to first have a BA learn the weave, pass the knowledge along to a DF channeler able to spend a lot of time doing research on how to change the weave, and find the answer in a few weeks. There's about 7 weeks between Logains healing and Moghediens meeting with Moridin, where she sees him wearing another Mindtrap, and it does not seem likely he would carry around a third. neither is it likely Cyndane would be kept in a Mindtrap if she is unable to channel.

 

You made that up you naughty minx! And not just little bits, every word.

 

Quite clearly bud, i am suggesting that healing stilling can indeed heal burning out... if you go back it was that which began this line of discussion.

[Majsju]

No i was talking about the fact that there is absolutely no change in strength in the others who underwent transmigration. I was questioning why only Lanfear was effected by this influence of body on strength that you suggest exists.

 

For starters, Lanfear was the only one who was held by the Finns, and the only one who plotted to betray the DO. Ok, Aginors little plot to seize TEOTW for himself was perhaps not the pinacle of loyalty, but compared to Lanfears ideas, however loonie, it kinda fades.

 

Ah, the 'we do not know' argument. Well, for one we do know that Cyndane had already been leashed, and we do know the Dark One holds great writ in the strength and knowledge of his Second Age channelers, and we know the Dark One's position on punishment is not based in anger but rather in practical results. From that we can deduce that it is indeed extraordinarily unlikely for this to have been done to Cyndane by the Dark One.

 

Cyndane is still the shadows strongest female channeler. If the DO is the one responsible, it is a punishment comparable to a slap on the face.She still walks around with all the AOL knowledge in her pretty little head, and that knowledge is what the DO values the most, not raw strength.

 

And we have to keep in mind that we do not know anything here for sure. It is far from unusual for RJ to keep things he does not want to reveal hidden. It is also far from unusual for him to toss out hints that sends us running in the complete wrong direction.

I for one expect to get some clarification when Mat pays another visit to Finnland.

 

That's nice. Care to expand? Because i don't see any statements of physical damage in there.

 

Nynaeves comment that there is some kind of gap, the way she heals Logain by bridging that gap, this screams of it being a physical damage. Add to that the complete lack of "WTF!?", which should have been there if she all of a sudden had started to fiddle with the soul rather than the body. Not even the far better trained Aes Sedai who watches her heal Siuan and Leane notices anything unusual, other than Nynaeve using all 5 elements.

 

No matter how marvellous the discovery, had they seen a half-trained child fiddling around with the soul, with a whole bunch of possible seriously negative consequences, there should have been at least some reaction.

 

Umm, why? This took place after Nynaeve healed Logain--Siuan and Leane too.

 

It has to do with the timing I laid out in the last part of the post.

 

You made that up you naughty minx! And not just little bits, every word.

 

Quite clearly bud, i am suggesting that healing stilling can indeed heal burning out... if you go back it was that which began this line of discussion.

 

Uhm, exactly what did I make up, that the shadow would have to research the weave to adapt i, just because you think the same weave would work for both cases?

 

The very description of someone being stilled vs someone being burned out makes it quite obvious that the same weave would not work. In a stilled person, there is a gap, as if something were cut. There is something to heal. In a burned out person, it is not cut, it is completely gone.

[Luckers]

For starters, Lanfear was the only one who was held by the Finns, and the only one who plotted to betray the DO. Ok, Aginors little plot to seize TEOTW for himself was perhaps not the pinacle of loyalty, but compared to Lanfears ideas, however loonie, it kinda fades.

 

Except, oh wait, didn't Moghedian get spanked as well?

 

In any case i dont see the relevance.

 

Cyndane is still the shadows strongest female channeler. If the DO is the one responsible, it is a punishment comparable to a slap on the face.She still walks around with all the AOL knowledge in her pretty little head, and that knowledge is what the DO values the most, not raw strength.

 

Well we don't actually know that--merely that she is still stronger than Graendal and that that is rare even in the Age of Legends. Semirhage or Mesaana may indeed be stronger.

 

But beyond that if the Dark One is responsable its comprable to nothing more than blunting a weapon thats completely under your control. And yes, the Dark One does value the strength of his Forsaken. RJ said as much.

 

Nynaeves comment that there is some kind of gap, the way she heals Logain by bridging that gap, this screams of it being a physical damage. Add to that the complete lack of "WTF!?", which should have been there if she all of a sudden had started to fiddle with the soul rather than the body. Not even the far better trained Aes Sedai who watches her heal Siuan and Leane notices anything unusual, other than Nynaeve using all 5 elements.

 

So, when you said nu-uh, you were refering to a completely personal interpretation of one part of the text--what it screamed to you?

 

For clarity it screamed no such thing to me. It spoke merely of a gap, of something missing, and in a world were we have seen souls manifest physically in the world of dreams, not to mention in real life in Shadar Logoth, and have seen souls cut from bodies, and have seen souls contained--no champ, i don't agree with your interpretation, and i certainly don't see any basis for the absolutism of your statement.

 

The rest of that is subjective and completely empty... a lack of a WTF moment? Manipulation of souls is a common reality in this world. You want to get your nickers in a knot fine, just don't expect them to. Unlike you, they have to deal with this stuff.

 

No matter how marvellous the discovery, had they seen a half-trained child fiddling around with the soul, with a whole bunch of possible seriously negative consequences, there should have been at least some reaction.

 

Why, precisely. You know, you're stating a whole bunch of things as absolutes, but they are really nothing more than your position on things are they? You think they are this way, but have no proof, correct?

 

Thats fine, but change your argument methodology. It's pathetic.

 

It has to do with the timing I laid out in the last part of the post.

 

I'm sorry, what? You stated 'I'm talking about a time before Nynaeve healed Logain' when we were discussing the healing of Cyndane, which took place after. How is that comment in any way a response to my confusion... the timeline you laid out, however incorrect, still exists within that time period.

 

Uhm, exactly what did I make up

 

Let me elucidate for you.

 

"Since the healing of stilling can't heal being burned out".

 

Made up. We don't know that, so the factuality of your statement is intrinsically flawed.

 

"you would have to first have a BA learn the weave, pass the knowledge along to a DF channeler able to spend a lot of time doing research on how to change the weave, and find the answer in a few weeks"

 

Since its based on an assumption thats made up, its similarily flawed.

 

"There's about 7 weeks between Logains healing and Moghediens meeting with Moridin, where she sees him wearing another Mindtrapand it does not seem likely he would carry around a third. neither is it likely Cyndane would be kept in a Mindtrap if she is unable to channel."

 

All subjective, so technically made up. But i have no issue with anything said there.

 

that the shadow would have to research the weave to adapt i, just because you think the same weave would work for both cases?

 

No, you made it up because you said that it wouldn't when you don't know. As a suggestive theory its fine, as a fact its made up. Sorry champ.

 

The very description of someone being stilled vs someone being burned out makes it quite obvious that the same weave would not work. In a stilled person, there is a gap, as if something were cut. There is something to heal. In a burned out person, it is not cut, it is completely gone.

 

That's once again inaccurate--though again it was your penchant for stating your opinion and unopposable fact that got you in this bind.

 

But yes, quite inaccurate. We don't have any descriptions of what a burned out person feels like--the gap is described second person by Nynaeve, and we have no correlating information from someone studying a burned out person. The factoid you were looking for was that stilled people can still sense the source, but burned out people can't. It's suggestive, but hardly qualitative and doesn't change your made up fact into reality.

 

Incidently since you seem to be struggling another thing you might like to look into is the a'dam thing with Siuan and Setelle.

[aussie_ashaman123]

hell, i just thought the DO gave cyndane less strength as a punishment and sense of humor

[dyehead]

I just think it's an interesting coincidence that Setalle Anan was in Ebou Dar, is the brown sister who loved Ter'Angreal, and Ebou Dar had a huge cache of angreal/ter'angreal in it..

 

I have a feeling if she gets healed she's going to bust out a few ter'angreal at the last battle and surprise us :)

[Majsju]

Except, oh wait, didn't Moghedian get spanked as well?

 

In any case i dont see the relevance.

 

You don't think it is relevant that Lanfear, unlike the others, plotted to betray the DO?

 

Well we don't actually know that--merely that she is still stronger than Graendal and that that is rare even in the Age of Legends. Semirhage or Mesaana may indeed be stronger.

 

But beyond that if the Dark One is responsable its comprable to nothing more than blunting a weapon thats completely under your control. And yes, the Dark One does value the strength of his Forsaken. RJ said as much.

 

True, we don't know for sure how Graendal stands vs Semi or Mesaana. ut the odds of any of them being stronger are so small they are not really relevant.

 

And I did not mean that the DO completely disregards raw strength. But we are not talking about Cyndane being reduced to some sissy little 3rd age Aes Sedai. Despite her reductionin strength, she is still among the strongest channeler there is. Which means the reduction only seriously affects her ego.An ego that was in need of some slapping.

 

The rest of that is subjective and completely empty... a lack of a WTF moment? Manipulation of souls is a common reality in this world. You want to get your nickers in a knot fine, just don't expect them to. Unlike you, they have to deal with this stuff.

 

Since when is manipulation of souls common to your average Aes Sedai? The tampering of souls we have seen has been made by, you know, the other guys.

 

Why, precisely. You know, you're stating a whole bunch of things as absolutes, but they are really nothing more than your position on things are they? You think they are this way, but have no proof, correct?

 

Thats fine, but change your argument methodology. It's pathetic.

 

You know what they say about throwing rocks when in a glasshouse, right.

 

I'm sorry, what? You stated 'I'm talking about a time before Nynaeve healed Logain' when we were discussing the healing of Cyndane, which took place after. How is that comment in any way a response to my confusion... the timeline you laid out, however incorrect, still exists within that time period.

 

If you don't see it, I really don't know how to put it any simpler.

 

Since the healing of stilling can't heal being burned out".

 

Made up. We don't know that, so the factuality of your statement is intrinsically flawed.

 

I'd say we can be very sure about this, since there is quite a difference between being stilled and being burned out.

 

There's about 7 weeks between Logains healing and Moghediens meeting with Moridin, where she sees him wearing another Mindtrapand it does not seem likely he would carry around a third. neither is it likely Cyndane would be kept in a Mindtrap if she is unable to channel."

 

All subjective, so technically made up. But i have no issue with anything said there.

 

Made up? We know the timing, we have no reason to doubt Moghediens suspicion that Moridin is keeping another Mindtrap, we have no reason to believe Moridin is walking around with three Mindtraps. The only thing that is a guess is whether or not Cyndane would be kept in a Mindtrap without being able to channel.

 

But yes, quite inaccurate. We don't have any descriptions of what a burned out person feels like--the gap is described second person by Nynaeve, and we have no correlating information from someone studying a burned out person. The factoid you were looking for was that stilled people can still sense the source, but burned out people can't. It's suggestive, but hardly qualitative and doesn't change your made up fact into reality.

 

We have the description of people being burned out not being able to even sense the one power, while stilled people can. That in itself is enough to prove there is quite a difference between the two.

[bigWalt]

Not sure if this has been suggested before, but I think Setalle Anan was the brown sister discussed in a previous book; the one who burned herself out while testing ter'angreal...  That's why she showed such an interest in Mat's medallion.  After which she admitted to being Aes Sedai and leaving the tower only for her husband to save her life by taking her in, etc.

 

Agree/Disagree?

 

Do you think she'll get healed and be able to channel again?

I agree wholeheartedly and that she is Martine Jenata, this came to me when looking at Leigh Butler’s reread posts of Path of Daggers on Tor.com and I rushed to Dragonmount to confirm that others had concluded the same and a search of Martine Jenata led me to this thread and this thread alone.

[Monte]

My initial conclusion was that Cyndane was possibly stilled and healed as well...but in reading this argument, one logical thing comes to mind. Who healed her? The Forsaken even admitted that the new and primitive culture that had arose since the Age of Legends came up with some surprising new tricks, and healing being burned out or stilled was one of them. They didn't know how to heal that in the AoL. So logically, none of the Forsaken could have done it. And since it certainly wasn't one of the Salidar Aes Sedai, and it certainly wasn't Damer Flinn that healed her, that leaves only the Dark One, correct?

 

So regardless, we are back to the Dark One, whether she was stilled or not, as the source as to why she is weaker in the power now than she was as Lanfear. So even if she WAS stilled (which is an assumption, not necessarily a fact, regardless), noone but POTENTIALLY Shai'tan could have healed it from the Shadow side. Almost makes 20 pages of arguing text about it seem trivial, when you are forced to the same conclusion in the end anyways, right?

[moratcorlm]

Well, we know there are Darkfriends among both the rebel Aes Sedai who observed Nynaeve heal Siuan and Leane and the Asha'man, though it's possible the saidin weave is still kept between Flinn and Narishma. Even if the Forsaken didn't want to expose a weakness by ordering the Darkfriend channelers to teach them the new weaves, they could order them to perform the Healing. So it's not limited to Shai'tan.

 

There is a definite answer to this little mystery, incidentally, in TOM. I'd be happy to argue about the logic of the old theories, but you'll have to learn which one's right on your own.

[Monte]

Well, we know there are Darkfriends among both the rebel Aes Sedai who observed Nynaeve heal Siuan and Leane and the Asha'man, though it's possible the saidin weave is still kept between Flinn and Narishma. Even if the Forsaken didn't want to expose a weakness by ordering the Darkfriend channelers to teach them the new weaves, they could order them to perform the Healing. So it's not limited to Shai'tan.

 

There is a definite answer to this little mystery, incidentally, in TOM. I'd be happy to argue about the logic of the old theories, but you'll have to learn which one's right on your own.

 

I guess I'll find out when I read ToM then...thanks for not giving the spoiler. However, for now I'm going to stick to the logic of my previous post...I have serious doubts about the timing of that, of a DF coming directly after learning the weave just to heal Cyndane from being stilled or burnt out. Seems a little too complex to be true...most conspiracy theories are laid to rest with "the most simple answer is probably the correct one." The answer is more likely to be found with the Aelfinn, in my opinion, after all, that's where she and Moiraine went, so I'm gonna guess your answer in ToM might have to do with Mat and Thom and the Tower of Ghenji. I'll read it closely then :)