About men forming circles...

[balefire]

i was reading this short story about the strike at shayol ghul:

 

http://www.tor.com/shayol.html

 

and it mentions that men cannot form circles and can only be invited in a circle formed by women. Now, its been almost two years since i read the books but i don't remember this fact being mentioned in any of the books, not even in Knife of Dreams. I clearly remember Sammael telling us that a man wrapped in Saidin cannot be compelled, but i doubt any of the forsaken mentioned this fact. Maybe i just forget. Can anyone tell me in which book this fact was mentioned??

 

Also, with only female channelers, 13 is the maximum number for a circle, but when men and women link for a mixed circle, is there any limit on the maximum no of people in a circle??

 

[Luckers]

It's mentioned many times within the series. The first is by Asmodean in The Fires of Heaven. "We cannot link without them. They can without us--at least up to thirteen, after that they need a man, and a small mercy that is--but we cannot without them."

 

Since then its been referenced and stated more than once.

 

And yes there is a limit on a mixed circle--it can only contain up to 72 members. It's said in the BWB.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Im sure that women can form a circle of upto 13, and to increase it they need a man. I have been led to believe that if you have several groups of 13, a man could link 2 groups of thirteen together and a man is needed for every 13 women after that. I dont remember anything about the 72 member limit but iv never heard of this BWB that people keep mentioning. What is BWB?

[balefire]

Ok thanks.

Dreadlord, although i haven't read it, but from what i've gathered from this forum, BWB i think stands for Big White Book (i could be totally wrong)and it contains many types of information that would look filler if added in the regular books. Such as information of other lands in the WOT, history and motives of the forsaken etc.

[Guest Dreadlord]

My brother has one that tells alot about the Forsaken-their old names, personalities etc but it isnt big or white

[Majsju]

It came in at least two versions. The first was a hardcover, the BWB, with all the information, maps, flags and some really awful illustrations. After that, a paperback was released (Small Black Book), with text only.

[Luckers]

Out here in Ausland the hardcover was big and blue, and the paperback was small and blue.

 

The BWB (also occaisionally called the Guide) is a book called The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, and its by Teresa Patterson in collusion with Robert Jordan. It's basically a compendium of information covering history--it has information about the Age of Legends, the Forsaken, the Power, the War of the Shadow, the Breaking, The Ten Nations, the Forming of the Tower, Hawking's rise and the War of the Second Dragon, The War of the Hundred Years and finally covers information on all the modern nations. It's very helpful.

 

And dreadlord you are correct--circles above thirteen require at least one man per set of thirteen women--i.e. a circle of 16 needs 1 man, but a circle of 26 needs 2. Apparently though, the closer the gender mix (14 women and 12 men in a 26 circle) the more effective and powerful that circle is.

 

There are other issues. For instance a mixed gender circle is automatically stronger than a female only circle of the same number and individual strength. And there are other number issues that dictate control--i cant remember them all off the top of my head, but its things like, if its a single male/female circle the male must have lead of the circle, or something.

[algspkr]

I believe that in a mixxed gender circle a women can only lead if it has thirteen or fewer women, but it must have at least two.

[Paviel]

And there are other number issues that dictate control--i cant remember them all off the top of my head, but its things like, if its a single male/female circle the male must have lead of the circle, or something.

 

That makes sense in light of what Cadsuane told Rand about Callandor: A man can safely use it only if he's linked to two female channelers, one of them controlling the flows.

 

Anyway, I have a question: Can men outnumber women in a circle? For example, can two men link with one woman?

[Tyrell]

IIRC There must always be atleast 1 more woman than man.

[Luckers]

Yeah, except in one woman - two men, or two women - two men circles.

 

[aevogt]

Think of it like a couples dinner date.  The women all head for the washroom in a pack and men go it alone.

[Davian93]

Also if its a mixed pair of 1 man/1 woman the man must lead (Sammael thinks this when talking to Graendal on an occasion.  I believe an even circle of 4 must also be led by a man.

 

And dreadlord you are correct--circles above thirteen require at least one man per set of thirteen women--i.e. a circle of 16 needs 1 man, but a circle of 26 needs 2. Apparently though, the closer the gender mix (14 women and 12 men in a 26 circle) the more effective and powerful that circle is.

 

Yup.  That is stated in the BWB, that if there are two circles of 72, the one with the closest ratio would be stronger.