The Seals

[Limedust]

Hello All

 

I am curious about the seals.  We know they shouldn't be able to break--they are breaking, or at the least are very fragile.  The thing that I have wondered about, to some great dissatisfaction, is that Lews Therin wants to break them.    IN LoC, A New Arrival, pg 80, Lews Therin voice thunders up "break it break them all must break them" but also "break them and must strike quickly, must strike now."  The "strike now" is what gets me.  It seems to parallel the dark one's counter strike in some fashion--was that counter strike (the taint) directed at the seals?  Or is it simply that LT should break the seals, let the dark one free, and "strike quickly" before the Dark One can gather himself? This bothers me, and like other strange instances in the plot, I think its important; I cannot figure out why, however and it tickles my brain.

 

Thoughts?

[elmis]

My idea is that he wants to break it to get it all over. Never heard or seen someone more suicidal than Lews Therin. :)

[Vambram]

Somewhere within his madness, Lews Therin may have a plan on how to strike out against the Dark One with a devastatingly powerful enough attack that does real damage to the D.O. While it is true that Lews Therin is suicidal, I think that its also true that LTT believes that he and Rand al`Thor will have to die, sacrificing themselves in battle against the D.O. in such a way so that the D.O. is defeated, supernaturally grievously wounded so that he is greatly weakened, and his dark touch removed from the world for more than a few millenia. I believe that Rand al`Thor and LTT think that in order to remake and redo the seals on the Bore, that the old seals may have to be broken, first.

[Guest cw]

I agree that the remaining Seals need to be broken.  The Bore in the Dark One's prison needs to get closed up as if it had never been made.  Before that can be done, the patch that Lews Therin put on it in the Age of Legends needs to be completed cleared away.

[Tyrell]

I am of the oppinion that now the seals are becomming corrupted they are serving as an anchor for the Dark One in the world, giving him the chance to disrupt the fabric of reality as he has been seen to be dooing - he was freeish for over a century during the Age of Legends and the effects we are seeing as of KoD were never mentioned.

 

So yea, I agree, the seals will need to be broken before Rand can do anythng, since at the moment they are meerly giving him 3?4? anchors in the physical world, which is why Lews Therin wants to break them, and the shadow wants them kept safe - if they are left unbroken, by the time of TG the age lace will have unraveled.

[The Lost One]

I recall reading some really good discussion on this topic before, but I can't seem to find any links.  I am sure it was in this forum. 

[slayerA]

...if they are left unbroken, by the time of TG the age lace will have unraveled.

 

I think that is reach. So far there is no mention of the seals being connected to the age lace or being an anchor. The seals are just seals, like bars on a jail cell, the more the seals fall the more the dark one can effect the outside world.

 

My thoughts on the seals and DO, are different, but no more based on fact than your ideas. I think Rand has to break the seals to face the DO directly, in defeating the DO, Rand will break the wheel of time from circlar time into linear time to prevent the DO from ever coming back. 

[Tyrell]

I admit, I have built a tower of cards here.

 

Im not sure exactly what I wrote in my first post, but it was probably badly explained. My reasoning for my theory (sketchy as it is) was this :

 

1.Nynaeve & Elayne can feel one of the seals resonating evil in tFoH.

2.We've no reports of such dramatic world screwyness during The Collapse + The War of Power, despite the fact that the 2.a.Dark One was free to touch the world for around a century, while at the current time he's still partially "blocked" so why does he seem to be screwing with the fabric of reality now and not then?

3. Why, once the Bore was drille didn't he free himself, he had long enough.

4.What's changed in the DO's situation between the start of the Collapse / War of Power and the present day - Seals!

5.Lews Therin wants to break them, Rand'd be in alot less trouble if he listend to the man once in a while, and say, Idunno.. killed Taim as advised.

6. The Shadow seems to be taking steps to get the seals back, despite apparently handing one over to the Light.

6.a. Taim seemed somewhat upset when Rand was going to break the Seal he just handed over, more upset and horrified than he could easily act IMO.

 

HENCE

 

-The Seals have been corrupted by the Dark One

-Since they exist in the physical world, he' using them as an Anchor to give him access to it to do some damage to the fabric of reality, to make way for his great Day of Return

 

Baaaasically its a theory based on one or two small, fragile discs of Cuendillar, holding up a large castle. But hey, you never know.

[SqueeEGA]

I agree that the remaining Seals need to be broken.  The Bore in the Dark One's prison needs to get closed up as if it had never been made.  Before that can be done, the patch that Lews Therin put on it in the Age of Legends needs to be completed cleared away.

 

Rand has that inventor 'friend', Fel, in camelyn.  he sent Rand a note "Belief and order give strength.  Have to clear rubble before you can build.  will explain when see you next.  do not bring girl.  too pretty."  *Min is a babe isnt she?* 

 

I think that LT did a shoddy job sealing the bore.  what was done needs to be scraped, and Rand needs to start from scratch.

 

I disagree with the notion that rand will break the wheel after TG.  The wheel is like a loom...it is a loom.  it keeps tension on the pattern as it weaves.  if the wheel were to break then the tension would be gone and the pattern would unravel.  that sounds bad.

 

 

[Davian93]

****Since they exist in the physical world, he' using them as an Anchor to give him access to it to do some damage to the fabric of reality, to make way for his great Day of Return****

 

Interesting theory.  I don't know that I agree with it but it is an interesting intepretation of what has happened.  However you have to remember that if they seals were not in place, as corrupted as they are, then the DO would be able to affect the world and the Fabric just as easily by sticking his finger through the Bore and depending on how big it actually is his entire arm (Figuratively) through.  The fact that the DO can project his Superfade through is a disturbing indication of how much bigger the bore has become since tEotW.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Baaaasically its a theory based on one or two small, fragile discs of Cuendillar, holding up a large castle. But hey, you never know

UNQUOTE

 

whether this is on the right line or not i dont know, but the way i see it the seals are limiting the influence the Dark One has on the world. The weaker the seals, the greater the Dark Ones influence. I think they need to be broken fully, and all of them, for the Dark One to break free.

 

As for the afore mentioned part when Taim gave one of the Seals to the Light, he would have done that purely to throw Rand off. Handing over a seal would have elliminated any thoughts Rand may have had about Taim being a Darfriend (it just so happens that Rands cleverer than Taim first thought) and seeing as though the Seals are guna break anyway, why not give one to Rand? It would have given him a false sense of security

[ERICKSON]

My thought's are that LT and his hundred companions could not fully seal the bore. I believe it could either be the fact there were no women involved or the DO final lashout.

[Paviel]

My thoughts on the seals and DO, are different, but no more based on fact than your ideas. I think Rand has to break the seals to face the DO directly, in defeating the DO, Rand will break the wheel of time from circlar time into linear time to prevent the DO from ever coming back.

 

I have difficulty reconciling this with the fact that the books take place both in "an Age yet to come" and "an Age long past".

 

Could Rand really permanently eliminate the Dark One more than once?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Only time will tell on that one I think, but personally i doubt Rand will kill the Dark One.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

My thoughts on the seals and DO, are different, but no more based on fact than your ideas. I think Rand has to break the seals to face the DO directly, in defeating the DO, Rand will break the wheel of time from circlar time into linear time to prevent the DO from ever coming back

UNQUOTE

 

I like the sound of that. If Rand destroyed the Wheel of Time and prevented history from repeating itself, it would give the kind of finality that Ive been hoping for. The Prophecies say Rand will fight the Dark One in the Last Battle but there is too much in it now that says all this has happened before and will again (An Age long past, an Age yet to come, all Ishamaels ranting whether he was telling the truth or not, Herid Fels studies, etc) If Rand changed it from circular to linear I think that would work well for the final ending

[Vambram]

As a normal, real, person, I believe in linear time here in reality instead of circular time similar to what RJ has established in his WOT. However, in the world of the WOT, I think it is obvious that only something, or someone on the almighty level of divine power of the Creator is able to break the circular time of the Wheel and the Age Lace pattern, and thus establish linear time.

[Cepheus]

I dont think the circular time that the Wheel of Time represents contradicts linear time. Its more that in a linear perspective, history is repeating itself in a manner that fulfills the prophecies. At least up until now.

 

I hope, similar to some of the previous posters, that TG will represent a change in the spinning of the wheel, and thus that the ages that will come will differ from the ages that have passed. This might contradict the "an age long past or an age yet to come".. Still, if its all just gonna happen again, I think it will leave me desiring more.

[SqueeEGA]

I have mentioned this thought a number of times throughout the forums, but it needs to be said here apparently.

 

If the wheel were to be broken, then the tension on the pattern would disappear.  The whole pattern would unravel, sort of like balefireing out tones of the threads.  if the wheel breaks, time doesnt suddenly start going straight, it stops entirely.

 

I realize that "THE FATHER OF LIES" has said he would break the wheel and remake it in his own image and allow Nae'Blis to rule the world, but it is in the nature of TFoL to LIE.  whomever was nae'blis would no longer exist.  at that point i doubt that TFoL could bring him back, nor would he really want to.

[xander]

I think that if the seals are attacked in the dream world they can be broken.  They just have to be found in order for them to be attacked.  I think this is why all these meetings of forsaken are taking place there.

 

In one of the books Perrin goes into the dream world to save Faile, who fell victim to a trap which was set for Moraine.  She was trapped in the dreal world by a small hedgehog which was made of curlainder(spelling r hard).  Anyway, Perrin broke the thing in the dreamworld and it was broken in half in the real world when they came back. 

[Darth_Andrea]

I think that if the seals are attacked in the dream world they can be broken.  They just have to be found in order for them to be attacked.  I think this is why all these meetings of forsaken are taking place there.

 

In one of the books Perrin goes into the dream world to save Faile, who fell victim to a trap which was set for Moraine.  She was trapped in the dreal world by a small hedgehog which was made of curlainder(spelling r hard).  Anyway, Perrin broke the thing in the dreamworld and it was broken in half in the real world when they came back. 

 

 

The Hedgehog was carved of wood and not a form of Heartstone, (I just went through that book this past week) and as far as attacking the seals in the world of dreams. they could break them there but they would just reform, for 2 reasons, 1 we have seen things related to the power broken and reformed there (The Shadow Riseing) when Egwene was in the panarch's palace looking for the back Ajah. She found that half of the female Choden Kal and it shattered and reformed. And the second reason is that the power isn't connected to the reflections of real world items there. (Stated in The Shadow Riseing and Fires Of Heaven) Nyneave was afraid of going near Callendor in the heart of the stone when meeting Egwene and the wise ones beacuse of Rands traps, But in Egwenes's PoV it's stated specificaly that they aren't there. Now the weaves that Egwene felt in TDR that were originaly protecting Callendor were something different and I assume designed to be relfected there to prevent a Forsaken from haveing it even a dream version of it. Apparently a Angreal and the like can work in the world of dreams as they do in the wakeing world.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]         

[BrainFireBob]

Little point of information, a version of cyclic time- which Jordan would be aware of, being a physicist- is one of the three proposed "ends" of the universe. 1) It expands, we all freeze with zero energy. 2) Entropy becomes infinite (complicate), eventual "heat death" of the universe. 3) Gravitational attraction becomes greater then the propulsion outward from the Big Bang, leading to a collapse back to an unstable point singularity- then a second Big Bang.

[Dhaos]

I think anyone expecting a "final" ending out of AMOL is going to be disappointed.  We've heard that some questions are going to remain unanswered- some threads never really tied up.  We also know from the Prophecies that the Last Battle isn't actually the "last" battle- "The battle done, but the world not done with battle."

 

Then there's the philosophical angle.  Cycles are persistent throughout the book.  There's the rise and fall of empires.  The death and rebirth of individual souls.  The Tower-of-Babel-esque rise of man to knowledge (Age of Legends) and fall to Dark Ages (The Breaking).  Saidin and Saidar opposing each other, but working together.  RJ emphasizes these concepts.  It would play strongly against the established motif if RJ decided that all of these cycles would suddenly break.

 

But ignoring all of that- lets say the Wheel does break.  Wouldn't that be...bad?  Without the Wheel, what weaves the threads of reality?  BOTH sides stopped using Balefire during the War of the Power because they were afraid of unravelling the Pattern- wouldn't breaking the Wheel do that in one shot??

 

Finally, the "In an Age yet to come, an Age long since past..." bit at the start of every book really seems to put a nail in the linear time theory.  "There is no beginning or ending to the turning of the Wheel of Time."  I can understand how that might not be the sort of closure that everyone finds comforting...but come on.  The series is called the Wheel of Time- the idea that all of this might happen again shouldn't surprise you.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I think Rand has to break the seal to confront the Dark One before the wheel completely unravels, if only because he has somewhere solid to stand while he fights the dark one. The seal are weakening because of the Dark One, his touch corrupts things. And he count get out with they bored the hole because it was too small, about the best he could do was push a finger through and try to get anough people to break him out on the wheel. As for not knowing if anything like this happened in the AoL, lets face it, it may have happened hundreds of times, and history forgot it.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

But ignoring all of that- lets say the Wheel does break.  Wouldn't that be...bad?  Without the Wheel, what weaves the threads of reality?

UNQUOTE

 

There is no physical Wheel of Time in the series, it is just a symbol of time. "Breaking the Wheel" is a metaphor. And even if it was real in the series surely it is the Wheel that keeps bringing the Dark One out of his prison. Effectively, if there was no Wheel, so to speak, the Dark One would never break free, these "Last Battles" would stop happening, the world would stop being Broken and the Dragon would stop being Reborn.

[BrainFireBob]

No.

 

The Wheel has no control over the DO. It has nothing to do with the DO. The DO wants in, because he wants to destroy the Wheel. Destroying the Wheel means the universe ceases to exist. The Wheel, using power it's endowed with by the Creator- perhaps he's diffused throughout the Pattern, we don't know- keeps the DO out, and eventually, being a smart deity with endless time and knowledge, he starts trying to work his way back in. Then the Wheel needs to force him out again. The DO, and the Wheel's interactions with him, are completely outside of the cyclical aspects of time. They're an episode that occurs "as needed."