Is one of these women a Darkfriend - The evidence keeps piling up

[aevogt]

Sheriam is black ajah!!!! for a fact !!! the episode with Halima in the tents proves it all!  it was pretty sad to see sheriam humbled. oh, i think she was stripped using the one power by Halima.

 

Dariam, we don't even know that that was Halima. Indeed Sheriam's own thoughts indicate it was a Sitter. Probably either Delana or Lelaine--with my bet on it being Lelaine, it fits her personality.

 

And either way it doesn't prove she's a darkfriend. I suspect the beater probably is, but not Sheriam.

 

I don't think Delana is strong enough to whip ass on Sheriam.  Didn't Delana stand beneath Suian before Suian was severed/healed and then above her after that.  The way it was described, Sheriam was more or less defenseless against her attacker and that says to me, Halima.  Lelaine is fairly strong for an AS but is she that strong?

 

 

[Darian]

Regarding who's beating Sheriam, I used to have Delana as my #1 suspect, but after KOD I am more inclined to look at Lelaine. Not because I think Lelaine would be black, but because she is maneuvering for power, as she pretty much admits herself.

but can Lelanie invert her weave or spirit shield herself so that Sheriam could not even sense the ability in her? I think its arangar or Halima.  Nynaeve and Elyane were both very careful in concealing what they have learned from the spider; and i doubt that any forsaken would teach lelanie how to mask your ability...

[Guest cw]

Regarding who's beating Sheriam, I used to have Delana as my #1 suspect, but after KOD I am more inclined to look at Lelaine. Not because I think Lelaine would be black, but because she is maneuvering for power, as she pretty much admits herself.

but can Lelanie invert her weave or spirit shield herself so that Sheriam could not even sense the ability in her? I think its arangar or Halima.  Nynaeve and Elyane were both very careful in concealing what they have learned from the spider; and i doubt that any forsaken would teach lelanie how to mask your ability...

 

The last light was failing as Sheriam approached her tiny tent, smaller even than Egwene's.  If she had not been Keeper, she would have had to share.  Ducking inside, she had only time to realize she was not alone when she was shielded and flung facedown on her cot.  Stunned, she tried to cry out, but a corner of one of her blankets wadded itself into her mouth.  Dress and shift burst away from her body like a pricked bubble.

 

A hand stroked her head.  "You were supposed to keep me informed, Sheriam.  That girl is up to something, and I want to know what."

 

It took a long time to convince her questioner that she had already told all she knew, that she would never hold back a word, not a whisper.  When she was left alone at last, it was to lie curled up and whimpering from her welts, bitterly wishing that she had never in her life spoken to a single sister in the Hall.

Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 16, Unexpected Absences, Page 345

 

Where is your justification for inverted weaves and masked channelling ability?  There isn't anything in the passage to suggest that Sheriam couldn't sense the ability to channel in her questioner or that she was unable to see the weaves that were used.

[lou]

lelaine is a sitter for the blue ajah, and has been for 40 years. this being sheriam's own ajah, why would it be a suprise that sheriam would not defend herself against her own sitter?  a sitter would not need to invert or reverse any weavings, sheriam already knows a sister can channel.one simple weave for privacy and any sister could beat sheriam til the cows come home without any interferance.

where did it say that sheriam couldnt sense the ability in the woman beating her?

[Guest cw]

All of which is why Lelaine is the most likely candidate for the person who was beating Sheraim.

[Darian]

Regarding who's beating Sheriam, I used to have Delana as my #1 suspect, but after KOD I am more inclined to look at Lelaine. Not because I think Lelaine would be black, but because she is maneuvering for power, as she pretty much admits herself.

but can Lelanie invert her weave or spirit shield herself so that Sheriam could not even sense the ability in her? I think its arangar or Halima.  Nynaeve and Elyane were both very careful in concealing what they have learned from the spider; and i doubt that any forsaken would teach lelanie how to mask your ability...

 

The last light was failing as Sheriam approached her tiny tent, smaller even than Egwene's.  If she had not been Keeper, she would have had to share.  Ducking inside, she had only time to realize she was not alone when she was shielded and flung facedown on her cot.  Stunned, she tried to cry out, but a corner of one of her blankets wadded itself into her mouth.  Dress and shift burst away from her body like a pricked bubble.

 

A hand stroked her head.  "You were supposed to keep me informed, Sheriam.  That girl is up to something, and I want to know what."

 

It took a long time to convince her questioner that she had already told all she knew, that she would never hold back a word, not a whisper.  When she was left alone at last, it was to lie curled up and whimpering from her welts, bitterly wishing that she had never in her life spoken to a single sister in the Hall.

Crossroads of Twilight Chapter 16, Unexpected Absences, Page 345

 

Where is your justification for inverted weaves and masked channelling ability?  There isn't anything in the passage to suggest that Sheriam couldn't sense the ability to channel in her questioner or that she was unable to see the weaves that were used.

we'll i was working from my memory...i really didnt know which book it was specifically in...but either way this must prove that Sheriam is black ajah...because that attack seems to be wielded like a weapon..

[Majsju]

we'll i was working from my memory...i really didnt know which book it was specifically in...but either way this must prove that Sheriam is black ajah...because that attack seems to be wielded like a weapon..

 

First of all, Sheriam is the one being beaten, not the one doing the beating. If both of them had been BA, why the heck go through the problems with beating her?

 

Second, using Saidar to beat someone does not fit with the oath against using the OP as a weapon. We've seen this done quite a few times throughout the books. Just take Rand when he was kidnapped in LOC.

[aevogt]

"A hand stroked her head"

 

Who does this sound like?  Halima is the fondler. 

 

"Dress and shift burst away from her body like a pricked bubble"

 

However, who knows the weave that does this to clothing.  Semihrage, who we know is in Ebou Dar.  or is she?  Could she be keeping tabs on Egwene in an attempt to undermine whatever schemes Mesanna has going?  Semihrage could Travel right into Sheriam's tent, but she wouldn't leave welts, though, would she?  Maybe.

 

The clothing trick seems to be an AoL type thing so that could also point to Halima, except for the differences in the descriptions of the weaves from Female (Semihrage - which we've seen) to Male (Halima - which we haven't seen, nor any evidence she/he/whatever knows that weave)

 

 

 

[Majsju]

Ripping the clothes off someone seems like something anyone with the slightest ability in Air would be able to figure out.

[aevogt]

Yet, we've only ever seen it done twice.  After all the times the shadow has captured the light, just twice.  It is exactly the kind of circumspect clue RJ throws in. 

 

Although, Sheriam does mention the "sitter" clue and she'd be wondering more things to herself if it were Halima.

As I think about it, if it was Halima, Sheriam would have thought something about not seeing any flows, or something like how this lowly sitters secretary could channel with such power.  The narrative just says she's shielded.  Not, "she was shielded by nothing she could see or feel" which is how it probably would have read, if it was Halima.

 

So I'm going to reverse myself, admit Maj is probably correct on this one, and go with Lelaine as the attacker.

 

Unless Sheriam really is a DF.  Which I doubt.  I think.

 

(I still think Leanne might be!)

 

[Majsju]

Yet, we've only ever seen it done twice.  After all the times the shadow has captured the light, just twice.  It is exactly the kind of circumspect clue RJ throws in. 

 

And how many times have we seen a channeler undress a captive normally?

[Tyrell]

When Semirhage disintergrates Cabriana's clothes, she thinks that none of the so-called Aes Sedai would have the skill to pull it off such delicate weaving or some such, IIRC.

[Majsju]

When Semirhage disintergrates Cabriana's clothes, she thinks that none of the so-called Aes Sedai would have the skill to pull it off such delicate weaving or some such, IIRC.

 

How weird, that part must have fallen out from my copy...

 

On the other hand, I would not take what any character think they knows as evidence for anything. A common theme in the books is that everyone think they know more than they actually do, and parts of what they do know is dead wrong every now and then.

[wvlr]

Disintergrating someones clothes and stripping the clothes from them I would consider to be entirely different tasks.

 

I would not count what Semi did as the same as was done to Sheriam.

 

You can remove someones clothes by ripping them off with your hand or Air but to burn then off with a ciragette lighter or using Fire (or some other disintergrating weave) it would be much more difficult.

[aevogt]

When Semirhage disintergrates Cabriana's clothes, she thinks that none of the so-called Aes Sedai would have the skill to pull it off such delicate weaving or some such, IIRC.

 

Which, if we put those two things together, may mean something...I don't know.  I think it is just the kind of thing RJ would do.

 

Still.. it's pretty thin.  Just like every other stinking clue to evry stinking mystery in this thing.

[Tyrell]

When Semirhage disintergrates Cabriana's clothes, she thinks that none of the so-called Aes Sedai would have the skill to pull it off such delicate weaving or some such, IIRC.

 

How weird, that part must have fallen out from my copy...

 

On the other hand, I would not take what any character think they knows as evidence for anything. A common theme in the books is that everyone think they know more than they actually do, and parts of what they do know is dead wrong every now and then.

 

Here's what it says in my copy :

 

Now for the woman's clothing. <snip> Delicately she wielded Fire and Wind, slicing away dress and shift and every scrap right down to the patient's shows. Drawing everything out in front of the woman in one compressed bundle, she channeled again, Fire and Earth, and a fine dust rained down onto the stone floor.

 

The woman's blue eyes bulged. Semirhage doubted she could duplicate those simple feats even if she had been able to follow them.

 

Emphasis mine.

[Guest cw]

That quote doesn't really mean anything.  There is no context to indicate why the woman's eyes bulged.  Was it fear, outrage, shock?  Could have been any of them.  Or none of them.  All it shows is the typical Forsaken contempt for 3rd Agers.  Considering how many times the Forsaken have underestimated their opposition...

[aevogt]

Also, Cabriana is negligible as far a strength goes.  Could have been directly at her as not strong.

 

 

[Majsju]

Quote from: LoC, Threads Woven of Shadow

Now for the woman's clothing. <snip> Delicately she wielded Fire and Wind, slicing away dress and shift and every scrap right down to the patient's shows. Drawing everything out in front of the woman in one compressed bundle, she channeled again, Fire and Earth, and a fine dust rained down onto the stone floor.

 

The woman's blue eyes bulged. Semirhage doubted she could duplicate those simple feats even if she had been able to follow them.

 

 

Emphasis mine.

 

How weird, my copy stops after 'bulged'. Maybe it's worth money!

 

But to echo my previous post, it does not mean anything.

[Tyrell]

Really Maj? I guess it was edited in later; mine's a UK paperback printed in 2006, I believe that gives 12 years since the original publishing of LoC for the extra sentence to show up.

[Guest cw]

It must be a printing flaw.  I bought my copy of Lord of Chaos when it was first released and the pasage is there, so it was not edited in later.  Either way, the presense of lack there of of that one sentence doesn't change anything.  Like I said early, coming from the perspective of an arrogant and condescening Forsaken, it doesn't provide a valid context for Cabriana's reaction.

[xander]

I hate to say it but I think Suian may be the darkfriend, as unlikely as it sounds.  In book three Suian sends Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne out after the Black Ajah.  No one knew this except for these three and Suian.  Gaebril (forsaken) knew they were sent and was calling for their heads from Comar (his lackey). 

 

So if only four knew then one of those four must be a darkfriend and I think we can rule out Nynaeve, Eqwene, and Elayne because Lord Gaebril wanted all three killed.

 

Just an unlikely thought.

[aevogt]

"It did not seem to occur to them (Salidar Aes Sedai) that being stilled might have broken all ties to the Three Oaths."

 

-The Fires of Heaven, The Practice of Diffidence

 

Since she thinks to herself that she had been, up until she was stilled, bound by the three oaths against lying, she could not have been a Dark Friend prior to TSR. 

[xander]

Not necessarily.  We still don't have a clear picture of exactly how oaths are broken to become a darkfriend.  Since all the sisters are sworn in on the oath rod before becoming Black Ajah, it seems possible (at least to me) that you become a darkfriend while still bound to the three oaths.    The breaking of the oaths comes later after the choice is made to become a darkfriend.  If that wasn't the case then there would be no Black Ajah.  They would one and all still be bound by the three oaths and incapable of leaving.    Being bound by the three oaths didn't prevent this for anyone else so why should it prevent Suian?  At some point every one of these women made a choice to break their oaths and follow the dark.  This choice had to be made while they were still bound by the three oaths.  So, in my line of thinking Suian could be bound by the three oaths and still be a darkfriend. 

 

MODIFICATION: And I think you can be a darkfriend and not lie, at least not lie straight out.  She seems very adept at misleading anyone on any point.  She would have had to lie after she sent Elayne and the other two out on their mission.  Even if faining ignorance on what was going on. 

Moraine goes by different names in different locations.  If she tells someone an alias, she lied.  So telling a lie is a very fine line here.  I'm not sure where that line is exactly but I think she would make a great choice for a huge surprise darkfriend.  There has to be one highly placed and she is the only one with the knowledge that has gotten out in this case.

 

 

[Majsju]

Moraine goes by different names in different locations.  If she tells someone an alias, she lied.  So telling a lie is a very fine line here.  I'm not sure where that line is exactly but I think she would make a great choice for a huge suprise darkfriend.

 

Pay attention to what Moiraine says whenever she uses an alias, "You can call me...". She never says "My name is...". This is not a lie by any means.