five questions that are either stupid or intriguing..

[divillysausages]

i've been thinking about these for a while now and figure that some answers would help my confused nature:

 

1: given that you don't have to actually touch an angreal/s'angreal to use it, is it possible to steal the use of someone's? ie: take graendal's ring. if she wasn't actually drawing through it at the time, could you highjack it and use it against her? will she feel the attempt? if so, what are the distance limitations to doing so

 

2: it's been said many times that it's impossible to fly using the power, but what's stopping rand etc from creating a platform out of air, stepping on it, and moving it similar to Skimming?

 

3: the choedan'kal need ter'angreal to safely draw the power through them, but given the fact that they're s'angreal, shouldn't they already have a buffer that stops you from drawing too much?

 

4: does travelling damage the pattern - speaking more about the male type that the female type. male channelers "drill a hole through the pattern" to form a gateway. does this damage it? also, in the brief description of dark one power travelling, its described as ripping the fabric of the pattern or something similar. what effects does this have?

 

5: what would happen if you balefired yourself?

[Paradoxic]

1. It probably has to be on your person. When we do see this action, the item is at least carried by whomever is using it. I do not believe you could hijack another person's angreal.

 

2. That would be flying. The fact is that you cannot lift yourself with the power... this includes lifting platforms you are on. My guess is that it has to do with relative motion and opposing forces (just like how you can't pull yourself up off the ground).

 

3. Not all s'angreal have the buffers, just look at the glass sword Callendor.

 

4. I'd say that it has no danger for the pattern. Dangers occur when threads that have been woven are deleted, such as with balefire. I don't believe there would be trouble from traveling.

 

5. Bad things.

[Luckers]

1. Potentially... indeed, isn't this what Moiraine did to Lanfear during their fight, and Rand did to Asmodean during theirs. That being said it seems pretty hard. Reasonably close physical contact with the angreal seems requied, in most cases the channeler touches the angreal directly, and in the most extreme with only a few layers of cloth between the two.

 

2. This is specifically impossible. Rand actually makes such a platform in Crown of Swords, and can only raise it so high... fourteen feet or something. He thinks to himself that even Asmodean couldn't explain it, though he did say that women can lift the platform higher then men, irrespective of strength.

 

3. Due to the specific nature of the Choedan Kal, and the strength they can draw, it seems that such a buffer was not possible. Indeed, the lack of the ability to buffer it properly seems to be something of a line that was hard to cross, and restricted the potential strengths of sa'angreal. It may even be the reason for the lack of such a buffer in Callandor. Additionally the ter'angreal were created with something called a resonance in mind, which was problamatic to the creation of such powerful sa'angreal.

 

4. The male method does not seem to damage the pattern. It might be akin to pocking your finger between two losely woven threads, it doesn't need them to be torn. As to TP travelling, given the scream of reality as it is torn, it is certainly implied that it causes damage to reality in some significant way. What the effects of that are, though, we can only guess.

 

5. Theoretically this would be paradoxical and impossible. Indeed, it may be that you are immune to your own balefire. Concider the fact that all channlers are actively touching the balefire thread at all times when they are balefiring. This may be the reason that controlling the balefire ter'angreal is so hard, it is not your balefire.

[Almearafan]

1: given that you don't have to actually touch an angreal/s'angreal to use it' date=' is it possible to steal the use of someone's? ie: take graendal's ring. if she wasn't actually drawing through it at the time, could you highjack it and use it against her? will she feel the attempt? if so, what are the distance limitations to doing so

 

2: it's been said many times that it's impossible to fly using the power, but what's stopping rand etc from creating a platform out of air, stepping on it, and moving it similar to Skimming?

 

3: the choedan'kal need ter'angreal to safely draw the power through them, but given the fact that they're s'angreal, shouldn't they already have a buffer that stops you from drawing too much?

 

4: does travelling damage the pattern - speaking more about the male type that the female type. male channelers "drill a hole through the pattern" to form a gateway. does this damage it? also, in the brief description of dark one power travelling, its described as ripping the fabric of the pattern or something similar. what effects does this have?

 

5: what would happen if you balefired yourself?[/quote']

 

Figured I would add my two cents:

 

1. I don't believe that it has to be on you to use it myself. I think that if someone is not drawing from it currently, you could draw through it at a distance. I would think you could reach out to it with the power to confirm location (within reason depending on the strength of the channeler) and once located draw through it. Good question for RJ though possibly, unless he's already answered it before.

 

2. I disagree with Paradoxic on this one to an extent. I agree that it's true that flying isn't possible for whatever reason, however; the idea of creating a platform out of the power, tying it off so it doesn't dissipate, and then moving it with the power while you're on it may be a possibility.

 

3. I agree with Paradoxic on this one quite definately.

 

4. I agree again on this one, however; I would love to hear an RJ explanation on this just for confirmation purposes.

 

5. I don't think that it's possible to balefire yourself. I think there is too much of a paradox in doing so. However if you want to discuss an example, think of the Rod Terangreal that allows someone to use balefire. Now imagin pointing it at your leg, and channeling through it. The beam of Balefire would go through your leg, but not your entire body. So I guess it's possible to Balefire a portion of yourself. But youre whole self would be impossible most likely.

 

Ok...that's it for my two cents...sorry I quoted all the questions...just wanted a reference point while typing.

[Almearafan]

2. This is specifically impossible. Rand actually makes such a platform in Crown of Swords' date=' and can only raise it so high... fourteen feet or something. He thinks to himself that even Asmodean couldn't explain it, though he did say that women can lift the platform higher then men, irrespective of strength.

[/quote']

 

I stand corrected on this one....Thanks Luckers.

[Luckers]

2. I disagree with Paradoxic on this one to an extent. I agree that it's true that flying isn't possible for whatever reason, however; the idea of creating a platform out of the power, tying it off so it doesn't dissipate, and then moving it with the power while you're on it may be a possibility.

 

Thats not possible either. The height such a platform can get above the ground has nothing to do, seemingly with strength or use in the power. Above a certain height it becomes insubstantial. Tying it off would not allow movement, incidently, unless that movement was a part of the tied of weave, in which case you again get the insubstantiality.

 

5. I don't think that it's possible to balefire yourself. I think there is too much of a paradox in doing so. However if you want to discuss an example, think of the Rod Terangreal that allows someone to use balefire. Now imagin pointing it at your leg, and channeling through it. The beam of Balefire would go through your leg, but not your entire body. So I guess it's possible to Balefire a portion of yourself. But youre whole self would be impossible most likely.

 

Jeane Caide balefired herself with the rod at the end of the Shadow Rising.

[Almearafan]

Jeane Caide balefired herself with the rod at the end of the Shadow Rising.

 

Ooooohhhhhh...I'm gonna have to reread that. I didn't realize. Very nice...thanks.

[Jedimuppet]

 

3: the choedan'kal need ter'angreal to safely draw the power through them' date=' but given the fact that they're s'angreal, shouldn't they already have a buffer that stops you from drawing too much?

[/quote']

 

I think the reason that the keys exist is not to prevent you from drawing too much, but to allow you to use them wherever you are, since they're too big to transport.

J

[Trib4l]

Jeane Caide balefired herself with the rod at the end of the Shadow Rising.

 

Ooooohhhhhh...I'm gonna have to reread that. I didn't realize. Very nice...thanks.

 

But she did it using the ter'angreal. I'd be curious to see if she could do it by herself, since the balefire she used was created by the rod and not by her.

[rd2000]

As for safely using the Choedan Kal. I believe it was buffered. The only effect from using it was exhaustion from using so much of the power. During the cleansing I don't remember them ever being in danger of burning themselves out using the access keys. They just wore out after hours of channelling massive amounts of saidar/saidin.

[dalic]

Question 2: That bridge of air in CoS Rand made from to board the Sea Folk vessel has always stuck in my mind. Is it only that you cannot use the Power directly on yourself? As in healing. Or is it you cannot use any type of channelling you do? Because Rand walked on his own bridge of air.

 

Also why couldn't two people fly together. They could lift each other or give each other continuous boosts of wind or some other such thing. And there is trust built in since there is assured mutual destruction if one fails.

[Leafburner]

The bridge of air was a solid construct if you like. It never moved and could have been tied off.

 

This is very different from being able to move yourself through the air.

[Luckers]

But she did it using the ter'angreal. I'd be curious to see if she could do it by herself, since the balefire she used was created by the rod and not by her.

 

Indeed, as i said in the rest of my post it seems unlikely. In fact given the evidence it seems you cannot balefire yourself with your own balefire--every channeler to date who has used balefire have touched their own stream with their hands to no ill effect. And it would be paradox for them to be able to in any case.

 

Ooooohhhhhh...I'm gonna have to reread that. I didn't realize. Very nice...thanks.

 

Yeah it was pretty cool when i realized what happened. Its never specifically shown, but later in the series one of the BA is thinking back on how Jeane Caide had never appeared after that battle, and by the direction of her thoughts she believed either Nynaeve or Elayne killed her, but since we know that didn't happen...

 

As for safely using the Choedan Kal. I believe it was buffered. The only effect from using it was exhaustion from using so much of the power. During the cleansing I don't remember them ever being in danger of burning themselves out using the access keys. They just wore out after hours of channelling massive amounts of saidar/saidin.

 

It wasn't--Verin believed it was, during tGH she said as much, but as RJ said, Aes Sedai frequently state their assumptions as proof. This was disproven, first by Lanfear and Rand, and then later by the Forsaken in conversation, and through something he said, it would appear that Rand also was aware of it by then.

 

Also why couldn't two people fly together. They could lift each other or give each other continuous boosts of wind or some other such thing. And there is trust built in since there is assured mutual destruction if one fails.

 

It seems to be that the height above ground is what defines this rule, not the height above the neareast stable platform. Theoretically though it should be possible to hover along at a certain height above the ground.

[A Nightmares Nightmare]

2. This is specifically impossible. Rand actually makes such a platform in Crown of Swords' date=' and can only raise it so high... fourteen feet or something. He thinks to himself that even Asmodean couldn't explain it, though he did say that women can lift the platform higher then men, irrespective of strength.

[/quote']

 

Rand didnt make a platform that was raised. He made an immovable bridge that would not have spanned the length if the boat was a few feet farther.

 

It seems to be that the height above ground is what defines this rule' date=' not the height above the neareast stable platform. Theoretically though it should be possible to hover along at a certain height above the ground.

[/quote']

When Egwene was raise to Amyrlin Seat for the rebels, the Sitters lifted her on a platform... I can't remember how high.

Maybe it was because the Sitters were linked. But shouldnt you be able to link with someone and raise a group of linked people that were raising you.

[Inara]

when you are linked, you are not seperate entities, you are guided by one person, how is it then possible for the lifting to be reciprocal?

[rd2000]

Please tell me where the books state the access keys to the Choeden Kal were not buffered. As far as my knowledge goes, only Callandor did not have the protective buffer that all other sa-angreal have.

[Luckers]

Rand didnt make a platform that was raised. He made an immovable bridge that would not have spanned the length if the boat was a few feet farther.

 

Actually he made a rising ramp, that he couldn't get to equal height with the side of the boat, which is why he then thought about the height restriction on lifting something with the power.

 

When Egwene was raise to Amyrlin Seat for the rebels, the Sitters lifted her on a platform... I can't remember how high.

Maybe it was because the Sitters were linked. But shouldnt you be able to link with someone and raise a group of linked people that were raising you.

 

Raising yourself, or your linked group, is perfectly possible, to a certain height. This has been said several times. That height limit is higher for women then men, and we do not know how that is affected by being in a link, but given gateways it seems possible that that may extend the height limit. Additionaly a male/female link will likely be able to lift higher still.

 

Please tell me where the books state the access keys to the Choeden Kal were not buffered. As far as my knowledge goes, only Callandor did not have the protective buffer that all other sa-angreal have.

 

The Access Keys are buffered, the Choedan Kal themselves are not, using them can kill you by making you draw too much. Indeed, it seems that this is one of the main reasons for the construction of the Access Keys. Lanfear implies as much, as do the group of Forsaken in the Forsaken Coffee Hour in WH, and Rand's use of the Choedan Kal in tGH came very close to killing him, the only thing that stopped it was the fact that he let go. Indeed, the effect and the description of how he acted when using the Choedan Kal without an access key, almost directly matches the way he acted when using the unbuffered Callandor.

[Wolfsbane]

"Rand's use of the Choedan Kal in tGH came very close to killing him, the only thing that stopped it was the fact that he let go."

-Luckers

 

I agree with a majority of what you have said, but not that. It was merely saidin he could feel within the Massive sa'angreal, not the power and how it would sweep him away. If it was possible to access the sa'angreal just by being.. what? 100 feet away, if not more? Wouldn't the Forsaken have thought of that? If I was Demandred or Sammael or Rahvin, I would have rode into Cairhein and cozied up nice and close to that statue.. and, oh I don't know.. Nuke about half of Randland. For the hell of it.

That is why the Choedan Kal were created, to permit access to the sa'angreal (access keys?? Anyone?), not just cell-phones on a family plan but global phones with no other connection.. I think I lost myself with that analogy. Meh.

Does this make sense though? If Rand was actually using the BIG sa'angreal in tGH, wouldn't that call down ever Mydraal, male channeler and just about everything else our little hero wouldn't have been able to deal with?

Rand detected resonating saidin within, that's all.

Ugh.

At least it's May.. back to work..

 

Wolfs

[Luckers]

No, Rand drew saidin threw the choedan kal in that incident, he just could not channel it. This is due to the lack of the buffer, and is the reason for the access keys. The fact that it cannot be controlled without an access key is the reason Demandred or the others havn't simply gone to Cairhein and used it. The ill-effects rand suffered are more then reason. It nearly killed him, because of the lack of the buffer. Thats why the access keys were created in the first place, to allow the safe use of the choedan kal. It is possible to access the Choedan Kal, within a hundred feet, but it will kill you to try an channel, indeed thats my point.

 

Incidently, you've mistaken what the choedan kal are. The massive sa'angreal has the name Choedan kal, the access ter'angrel are not the choedan kal, but allow access to them.

[Wolfsbane]

My Old Tongue is a little rusty, so you will have to forgive my slight by refering to the keys as the CK.

 

I did miss the part where the Choedan Kal were discussed by the Forsaken, as wikipedia mentions, but as both yours and wik's descriptions go, I will concede the point as well. Now, wikipedia also mentions that a woman statue very much like the access ter'angreal was found in Tanchico, and I remember it vaguely as well.. So would that explain why RJ had to destroy the female statue so there wouldn't be two in the story? Or are we still stuck to one statue, the male side, left?

Also, has Rand's reluctance to use the ter'angreal at any other time been simply: he doesn't want that much power; LTT will fight him for it; the attention of the male channelers; or...?

 

wolfs

[Jedimuppet]

No' date=' Rand drew saidin threw the choedan kal in that incident, he just could not channel it. This is due to the lack of the buffer, and is the reason for the access keys. The fact that it cannot be controlled without an access key is the reason Demandred or the others havn't simply gone to Cairhein and used it. The ill-effects rand suffered are more then reason. It nearly killed him, because of the lack of the buffer. Thats why the access keys were created in the first place, to allow the safe use of the choedan kal. It is possible to access the Choedan Kal, within a hundred feet, but it will kill you to try an channel, indeed thats my point.

 

Incidently, you've mistaken what the choedan kal are. The massive sa'angreal has the name Choedan kal, the access ter'angrel are not the choedan kal, but allow access to them.[/quote']

 

The access keys were actually created so that the CK could be used anywhere in the world, since the actual item was too large to transport. It may be that they do provide a buffer, but I recall the BWB specifically mentioning the fact that the keys were made so that it could be used anywhere.

J

[Blade]

No, wolfsbane, it wasn't a statue that was found in tanchico, it was another broken female access key. There were multiple access keys to the choedan kal.

[Luckers]

Mmm. Lanfear mentions the access key in tenchico, and Egwene finds it in TAR. It was broken, and in any case it doesn't matter as the female Choedan Kal itself on tremalking was destroyed in the Cleansing.

 

Jedi, that was one of the reasons they were made. It also mentions the resonance in the BWB, and in the books themselves the fact that the Choedan Kal cannot be used in person without it killing them is put forward by both Rand's experiences, and conversations of the Forsaken. The only person to say against this was Verin, but as RJ said Aes Sedai often state their opinion as fact, and since Verin has never had access to the Choedan Kal, and had no way of knowing of the Access Keys, she would assume that to be the case.

[Jedimuppet]

Mmm. Lanfear mentions the access key in tenchico' date=' and Egwene finds it in TAR. It was broken, and in any case it doesn't matter as the female Choedan Kal itself on tremalking was destroyed in the Cleansing.

 

Jedi, that was one of the reasons they were made. It also mentions the resonance in the BWB, and in the books themselves the fact that the Choedan Kal cannot be used in person without it killing them is put forward by both Rand's experiences, and conversations of the Forsaken. The only person to say against this was Verin, but as RJ said Aes Sedai often state their opinion as fact, and since Verin has never had access to the Choedan Kal, and had no way of knowing of the Access Keys, she would assume that to be the case.[/quote']

 

As I said, I wasn't contradicting that point, only adding in what I thought was the major reason they were made. Had they keys not been made, an effort would have been made to fix the "buffering" problem. It wasn't necessary to, though, because of the keys having that functionality.

J

[divillysausages]

yeah, i remember the bwb also saying that the keys were created because it would have been too hard to move the statues to wherever they were needed. being s'angreal, you have to assume that you can channel through them without the keys, whether or not they have the buffer.

 

on a slightly related point, did cadsuane say that there was no buffer on callandor or that the buffer was flawed, resulting in a greater seepage of the taint into the channeler?