Why the heroes are so young

[son omerc]

I was reading in the General Discussion section about other authors and series and a comment caught my eye and started me thinking on how ages play such an integral part in the series. Sirayn wrote, "Charion Series by Lois McMaster Bujold. The writing style is fresh and interesting, the characters fully drawn, and thank Christ for one book in which the hero is over thirty years old!".

 

This ties into, IMHO, the question of the too young Sitters in the Hall of the Tower and the rebel camp. Young people are the ones who rebel in an attempt to change society, and without change society would stagnate. Older people are much more apt to defend existing laws and customs, even when they don't totally agree with them because they have the experience to realize anarchy is worse than bad laws. Without the give and take between these opposing stances we wouldn't move forward without descending into anarchy.

 

Society rarely changes while the old guard remains in control, and RJ has set up a new guard that can step in and embrace the changes that will come now that saidin is clean and men can not be hunted like animals. Young heroes, and secondary characters, are an integral part of fantasy stories because only the young can change enough, in the space of the story, to encompass an end of a way of life. The change is why we read, to escape ordinary reality, and it would be hard to accept a 40 or 50 year old man, or woman, embracing the changes a 20 year old hero could. While it is nice to think that a hero my age could rise to the occasion, I find it easier to accept Rand at 20 GROWING into a leader that can face the DO, than say Tam at 50 accepting the same changes. I could see Tam leading the world's forces to TG, but not in a world where he must build those forces after conquering each country and separate people. Oh the story could be told but it would not be as believable.

 

I find the story of 3 young heroes growing into the leaders over time, each different and appealing to different segments of the world's societies, to be more believable in an epic saga such as this. Not just 3 if you add in Egwene, Lan, Nynaeve, Galad, Elayne, and so on. So while it would be fun to have a middle aged hero, I think it would detract too much from the story.[/img]

[Ilyena]

I totally agree. Younger heros can adapt to changes alot faster than middle-aged ones could. However some (like Moiraine and the other Aes Sedai, Lan, many Kings and Queens) are all older, yet are adapting to the change fairly well. I think it's also the youth factor. I mean, could you see Tam Al'thor going through everything Rand is at his age? Don't think so.

[Kadere]

Originally RJ planned to have Rand be in his 30s but found that he couldn't have the same amazement in his character at seeing the world outside Emond's Field as he could if Rand was 18.

 

I totally agree that it makes more sense to have them be younger. But it's nice to see a series which has middle aged characters, because even middle aged people are interesting.

[son omerc]

Lan has changed, but only slightly in comparison to Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, and Nynaeve. I really have to disagree on the Queens and Kings, I think they have shifted their attack when foiled, but in general they can never seem to look past immediate events to see that TG is coming. Morgase would still put a knife into Rand if she thought it would help Andor or keep him away from Elayne, never considering that in doing so she would doom Elayne and Andor to the Shadow.

 

Elayne, the new Queen of Andor, is young, the new King Darlin Sisnera of Tear is only middle aged unlike most of the High Lords who schemed against Rand, Tenobia is young, Tuon is young. Egwene replace Siuan, even though she was a young Amyrilin, but Egwene is young enough to accept men in general channeling. Most rulers have lost their thrones prior to Rand appearing on the scene, and where they have younger people have stepped in or been appointed. I don't know if we will see much of King Mattin Stepaneos of Illian in the final book, but I doubt he will not scheme to remove Rand from his throne and if that involves Rand's death I don't see him even blinking.

 

Now don't think I'm opposed to older characters, I think Thom, Lan, Gareth, Tam, and all the rest are great characters, I juist don't see them being the main characters in place of our younger heroes.

 

I heard originally RJ had Tam being the hero after his return from the Aiel War and Nynaeve being his Lady Love. I think I also heard that Rand was supposed to be older. I can't see the story working as well without young heroes, but that is just my opinion.

[Luckers]

I heard the one about Tam, but not that Rand was ever meant to be older. The reason that most of the heroes are young is that the coming of age story, with all the learning about who you are and all that is much more dramatically interesting then the story of an older person who already knows themselves. That and the acrhetype of the wise magic users helping the young hereo (Moiraine etc)

 

I disagree about the too young sitter conspiracy, for the White Tower has the same thing, only there the young sitters number and are distrubuted oposite the old sisters in the rebels. I think they were chosen so they could be easily shunted aside with no ruffled feather in the even that the tower was peacfully reunited... the two halls could simply mesh back into one. I suspect it was done by the original Ajah Heads... the only ones with the power to influence the vote like that in both groups... and indeed Pevara and the BA hunters notice that the Ajah Heads are up to something.

[son omerc]

But no matter what the Ajah heads in the Tower have planned, they have set things up nicely to replace the older Sitters with younger Sitters numberwise. I think it will come down to a vote, A or B, amoung the Sisters of each Ajah. A being 100 plus and B being 40-60 years old. It gives RJ a way to remove the majority of older Sitters and leave Sitters who can embrace change, ie men channelers and an 18 year old Amyrilin Seat. The Ajah scheme makes good sense for the present, but it leaves RJ an opening to pull off a later plot shocker like he is so fond of.

[Luckers]

Actually its the oposite that seems to be occuring... the young sitters were placed there directly by the command of the ajah heads so they can be removed in turn. Do you really see Romanda or Lelaine, or Pevara or any of the BA Hunters for that matter being booted from the hall?

[son omerc]

But it will not necesarily be a choice that Lelaine or Romanda make. They will be in a run off with a younger Sitter from the WT with the reunited Sisters voting for one or the other. Those WT sisters are now seeing Egwene as a strong viable alternative to Elaida. That recognition will go a long way towards showing them that the old guard is not always best. Already in the rebel camp we see the younger Sitters showing a surprising, at least to the older Sitters who thought they held them in their pocket, amount of backbone on certain issues.

 

If Romanda or Lelaine are omnipotent why can't they keep their child Amyrilin on a shorter leash? Egwene should be in their pocket also, that was their plan from the start, yet she has out played them in a game they have played for a far longer time. While they have quite a bit of power in their respective Ajahs they cannot guarantee enough support to keep their seats especially when they have to compete against a reunited Ajah, half which see them as rebels.

 

Pevara is a red, she has no competition in the rebel Hall. Just as the blue Sitters will face none. I don't think every Sitter will be replaced, just enough to set the WT on a firm course behind Egwene. As to the Ajah Heads setting up puppets, the puppets are almost, if not as powerful, as the Ajah Heads once they are Sitters. There have been instances of the entire Hall being removed by the Sisters in open revolt against the Hall and Amyrilin. Do you think it cannot happen again? There are elected Sitters already there and I for one wouldn't be surprised to see a real shake up in the Hall when the WT is reunited once more

[Luckers]

Romanda and Lelaine are not omnipotent, but they are politicians, and i simply don't see them being replaced by the new kids on the block, who by their own actions have displayed their inneffectuality. No, the too young sitter conspiracy was about placing young sitters in the hall so that later when the two halls were recombined those youngsters could be displaced without ruffling feathers.

[Ashandarei]

Romanda and Lelaine are not omnipotent' date=' but they are politicians, and i simply don't see them being replaced by the new kids on the block, who by their own actions have displayed their inneffectuality. No, the too young sitter conspiracy was about placing young sitters in the hall so that later when the two halls were recombined those youngsters could be displaced without ruffling feathers.[/quote']

 

Ditto.

[Jellybelly]

Son o' merc and others are painting a picture of "old is bad and young is good" that I really cannot see has got any support in the books.

 

The fact is that the young protagonists are making way in the world because they are maturing and acting in a manner that is in a sense beyond their years (at least in current terms). However, keep in mind that in the 1700s, you were very much expected to be an adult at 15.

[Guest Egwene]

I agree with Luckers that a story where the heroes are older would lack the part of developement into the person. If you think about books with older heroes, the story centers more on the results of their actions rather than their struggle in becoming the person they need to be to act the way they do. Having said that, they often revert to flashbacks and memories to show a part of that process. (And in a reversion of the 'the archetype of the wise magic users helping the young hero', you get the young trainee helping the older hero.)

 

A lot get portraied in both roles... think of Pug and Thomas in the riftwar saga, Fitz in the books by Robin Hobb, Belgareth and Polgara again heroes you meet both as youngsters and as elders. By being witness to the developement of their character, we form a much closer bond with them.

 

It all depends on how the characters are developed as to whether it is believable that they have gained the respect of their contemporarys as leaders despite being young. Rand has gone through the mill and on top of that has the thoughts of Lews to mature him rapidely. Egwene has managed to be an apprentice in the tower, with the Wise Ones and so to speak the Seanchean (and gone through a mill or two in the process), Elayne has been born to her leadership and been trained for it from infancy, Mat has the knowledge gained as a result of his visit with the Finns. Perrin has the help of 'wolf' instincts and a wife that is teaching him what she knows about being a ruler, Nyn by finally excepting her ability to channel is adding to the power already bestowed on her as wisdom.... all in all, each has matured far beyond their peers. As is demonstrated when they are reunited with some of the Eamondsfielders later in the story.

Not to forget that traveling and seeing something of the world other than your own backyard often gives people the edge over those that don't have those adventures.

 

And I can't leave this without making a reference to the worst book I ever read. The hero is a thirty something that acts like a spoiled kid. However, he than matures overnight and is respected without there being any visible cause of why that should be. More on just how bad this book was in the thread about 'recommended authors and series'

[son omerc]

The story wouldn't work without the main characters evolving into the best possible, maybe excepting Rand and he still has to learn laughter and tears, leaders they can be. Rand, Mat, and Perrin could have refused to leave hearth and home and the story would have ended in a trollock led massacre. So we can pretty much agree that this story is the absolute best case scenario, we saw some of the other scenarios that could have been when Rand used the portal stone to travel to Tomain Head, and in relation to the real world it is unlikely that any hero, or other character, could continually make the best possible choices with little or no information beforehand. So to debate whether it is possible for the main characters to grow like they have is useless. The real question is whether you think RJ has provided enough stimuli to bring about the changes we have seen. My opinion is yes, and providing this stimuli is one reason the story has evolved into 11 books from the original 3-6 RJ envisioned. We can all point out stories in which the hero gains wisdom/bearing/gravitas or whatever without any real explanation. Sometimes this wand waving gain of skill so detracts as to ruin the entire story. I don't believe I've seen much of this in RJ's masterpiece, Rand's channeling in the early stories, without teaching, sometimes bothered me but I've come to realize that in the early story when push came to shove LTT lent an unacknowledged hand.

[Stevenator]

their not too young - not compared to what GRRM is trying to make us believe.

[Sirayn]

I got quoted! I am great.

 

Being a cynic, I'm inclined to believe that the profusion of teenage protagonists is a deliberate play for the target audience which for fantasy is commonly in the 12-21 readership demographic -- the teenage dollar, if you will. There's a perception, whether true or not, that teenagers (and their lovely dollars) are more likely to read about, sympathise with and support teenage characters. It's also tradition: all these teenage heroes are a nod toward Luke Skywalker and the future King Arthur.

 

People have raised interesting points which I hadn't previously considered. Teenage characters do potentially allow room for more growth; the poster who pointed out that Rand, Mat and Perrin have developed far more than Lan was correct I think. They can also more believably make the kind of mistakes you need to further the storyline. Teenagers are supposed to be more fallible, more immature and thus more likely to fall into the arms of the gorgeous-but-secretly-evil princess, learn from the handsome-but-secretly-evil mentor, or put on the magic-but-secretly-evil ring.

 

Side note: young, possibly immature teenage characters are also in a better position to be taken under the wing of not-necessarily-secretly-evil mentors, who can then engage in massive amounts of plot exposition purportedly for the benefit of the teenage protagonist in question, but which actually tells the reader everything the writer couldn't communicate more elegantly via show-don't-tell. ;)

[Jellybelly]

Well, most of them aren't teenagers, so I do not think your analysis is accurate. The ta'veren are in their early twenties, around 20 at the time of TEotW, which makes them approximately 22 at the time of KoD. I do not know about you guys, but I do NOT consider a twenty-to-twenty-two year old a teenager. Nynaeve probably is around 24-25 at the time of TEotW. Min is a few years older than Rand, which could make her around 25 at the time of KoD. The only teenage characters among the central figures AT THE START of the series is Egwene and Elayne, and they are roughly twenty now. Not too sure about Aviendha, but I think there is mention of her being slightly younger than Rand.

 

Anyway, add to this the fact that they live in a late-middle age society, where people were expected to be reasonably mature and grown-up around 15. These guys aren't kids.

[Luckers]

Actually the ta'veren are around 18 at the time of the begining of the eye of the world. It hadn't yet been 20 years since the Aiel War despite the generalisation. Egwene was 16, and Nynaeve was 26, though she had slowed already. By KoD the lads are 20, Ny is 28 and Egs is 18.

[Jellybelly]

Well, New Spring takes place between late 978 and early 979. Rand was born late in the year 978, which would make him nineteen going on twenty at the start of TEotW, which starts late in the spring of 998. (Unless I am COMPLETELY miscalculating. Numbers were never what I did best)

 

Egwene was born in 981, which makes her seventeen at the beginning of the tale and nineteen at KoD. Nynaeve was born in 973, which makes her twenty-five in TEotW.

 

I think my point stands none the less.

[Inara]

the beginning sequence of tEotW explicitly states that rand and egwene are only just now coming of age in the eyes of their elders. this is one of the plot points i have so much trouble with as i agree with jellybelly that medieval adulthood begins at about 15 for men and 13-15 for women.

their ages allows us to accept their immaturities and their burdens, as well as to relate to their PoVs.

[Kadere]

I think that all of your problems are that you keep comparing this to Medival life. This is not, in any way Medival life. This is Randland. Where peaches will kill you. In this land, in this culture, you are not viewed as an adult untill you are about 17 or 18, as Rand and his friends are.

 

Don't mistake this as being ASoIaF, it's not trying to be.

[Jellybelly]

Who's having problems? Rand isn't 18 was all I was saying. My second post in this topic was to defend my stance on the ages of the main characters, where my main point was that they are not teenagers (which is a word that has some bad associations). Alright, Rand is nineteen and four months, not twenty, but he's certainly more twenty than eighteen, to phrase it like that. Same goes for Egwene, she's not sixteen, but seventeen and then some (and everyone knows girls mature faster than boys; some things are constant in all worlds).

 

In addition, Kadere, I partly agree with you about what you said about coming into maturity. As long as you restrict that to the Two Rivers. I do not think we have any other reference points when it comes to this, but I also think it is reasonable to believe that boys become men faster in the Borderlands, and in those countries they may retain more of a "real world midieval" outlook on such things. I think the Two Rivers is sheltered to such a degree that people are considered children longer. The informal age of majority could be a totally different one in Andor proper. See where I am coming from?

[Kadere]

yeah, I wasn't picking on you. People had posted saying that in a Medival time you were expected to be an adult by 14, so Rand and his friends were being childish. All I was saying was that this is not Medival times, and the culture is very different.

[Jellybelly]

I don't mean to come across as argumentative here, but I don't know. People were expected to be grown up at sixteen-seventeen as little as a hundred years ago, you know. That is around 1900. And I referred to Randland as being reminiscent of the seventeen-hundreds, at least in some aspects. Even though Randland is unique in some ways, it mirrors the real world. People being kids up to twenty is quite a new phenomenon. It all depends on whether the home community can sustain you, I guess. You grow up fast if father says he's fed you long enough and you should get a job on a ship or in town.

[Kadere]

sure, but Rand, Mat, and Perrin live in a sheltered community that they never journey from. Their jobs are secure. They live with their parents. They're not EXPECTED to be all that independent. I'm sure in the boarderlands they would be much more mature by their age, but for a close-nit community I don't think their that unbelievable for their age.

[Jellybelly]

Hehe. We actually agree on everything, so I there is probably no need to continue this much further.

 

What I reacted against was this sentiment that they are children, which they are clearly not. If they weren't ta'veren, they would probably be married with their own farms etc. within a year or so. Except for Mat, who would have run off to Baerlon to adventure before settling back.