ZOMG! TAIM IS A FORSAKEN!!!

[RobertAlexWillis]

RJ says:

 

First off, Dreadlords was the name given to men and women who could channel and sided with the Shadow in the Trolloc Wars. Yes, the women were called Dreadlords, too. They might have liked to call themselves "the Chosen," like the Forsaken, but feared to. The real Forsaken might not have appreciated it when they returned, as prophecies of the Shadow foretold would happen. Some of the Dreadlords had authority and responsibility equivalent to that of the Forsaken in the War of the Shadow, however. They ran the Shadow's side of the Trolloc Wars, though without the inherent ability to command the Myrddraal that the Forsaken possess, meaning they had to negotiate with them. Overall command at the beginning was in another's hands.

 

Forsaken was the name given to Aes Sedai who went over to the Shadow in the War of the Shadow at the end of the Age of Legends, though of course, they called themselves the Chosen, and despite the tales of the "current"Age, there were many more than a few of them. Since they occupied all sorts of levels, you might say that many were equivalent to some of the lesser Dreadlords, but it would be incorrect to call them so. At the time, they were all Forsaken—or Chosen—from the greatest to the least.

 

Some of those Forsaken the Dark One killed were every bit as high-ranking as the thirteen who were remembered, and who you might say constituted a large part of the Dark One's General Staff at the time of the sealing. With the Forsaken, where treachery and backstabbing were an acceptable way of getting ahead, the turnover in the upper ranks was fairly high, though Ishamael, Demandred, Lanfear, Graendal, Semirhage, and later Sammael, were always at the top end of the pyramid. They were very skilled at personal survival, politically and physically.

 

In large part the thirteen were remembered because they were trapped at Shayol Ghul, and so their names became part of that story, though it turned out that details of them, stories of them, survived wide-spread knowledge of the tale of the actual sealing itself. Just that they had been sealed away. Other Forsaken were left behind, so to speak, free but in a world that was rapidly sliding down the tube. The men eventually went mad and died from the same taint that killed off the other male Aes Sedai. They had no access to the Dark One's protective filters. The women died, too, though from age or in battle or from natural disasters created by insane male AesSedai or from diseases that could no longer be controlled because civilization itself had been destroyed and access to those who were skilled in Healing was all but gone. And soon after their deaths, their names were forgotten, except for what might possibly be discovered in some ancient manuscript fragment that survived the Breaking. A bleak story of people who deserved no better, and not worth telling in any detail.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152'>http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

So, in the Age of Legends, all Darkfriend channelers were called Forsaken by the Light, and Chosen by themselves.  In the Trolloc Wars, all Darkfriend channelers were called Dreadlords, because they were afraid to call themselves Forsaken, since that name had been applied, by that time, only to the 13 who were trapped in Shayol Ghul.

 

In modern terms, this might be the best way to understand becoming "Forsaken".  Again, from the author:

 

Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

If Taim has gotten the special Forsaken "Mark" (which is different than the one Alviarin got, see Jordan's comments on the same page) then he is indeed one of the Chosen in the same way that Demandred, Graendal, etc, are.  If not, then not.  It is my opinion that he is, but time will tell.

[Ura]

Maybe it's just my interpretation, but the DO (and his minions - forsaken etcetera) is known as the father of lies, if they were meant to be immortal, then why are they dying in the first place? maybe it's just their delusional state that they believed the DO (just as any darkfriend who follows and believes they will get whatever was promised to them).

Another thing I don't quite understand is the 'resurrection' thingamajig. Why do they come back as someone else, and not as they were? Is it a form of punishment? Also I don't think that the forsaken know of who got resurrected and who didn't. They may speculate or insinuate, and we know that DO doesnt explain what or why he does when he gives his orders...

[Leopoled Boothe]

Im crazy enough tothink Taim may still be Be'lal; although I agree it is far more likely that he is just himself and a Chosen or atleast high ranking dreadlord in his own right.

 

I like the Be'lal is Taim theory because many things about it make sense.  One major problem, however, is that Be'lal was a very skilled swordsman while Taim seems to have and aversion to swords as he feels that powerfull channels have no need for them and considered Rand's training of the Asha'man in swordsmanship to be a waste of time.  Seems unlikly that Be'lal would espouse such an attitute toward swords.

[Majsju]

Another thing I don't quite understand is the 'resurrection' thingamajig. Why do they come back as someone else, and not as they were? Is it a form of punishment? Also I don't think that the forsaken know of who got resurrected and who didn't. They may speculate or insinuate, and we know that DO doesnt explain what or why he does when he gives his orders...

 

Their original bodies are dead, what the DO does is placing their souls into living bodies.

And with the possible exception of Cyndane, I'm quite sure at least most forsaken have figured out who's who. A new body does not mean they have changed their personalities.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE Is that not essentially the definition of a Forsaken?

UNQUOTE

 

no, the chosen are immortal. i dont think taim is otherwise it would have been revealed

[Tyrell]

Nothing yet has shown that the "chosen" are immortal in the traditional sense.

[BKVMC]

Im crazy enough tothink Taim may still be Be'lal; although I agree it is far more likely that he is just himself and a Chosen or atleast high ranking dreadlord in his own right.

 

I like the Be'lal is Taim theory because many things about it make sense.  One major problem, however, is that Be'lal was a very skilled swordsman while Taim seems to have and aversion to swords as he feels that powerfull channels have no need for them and considered Rand's training of the Asha'man in swordsmanship to be a waste of time.  Seems unlikly that Be'lal would espouse such an attitute toward swords.

 

Be'lal is  dead  he was balefired by moiraine.

 

IMO taim is the black tower equivalent  of alviarin

[blitzkrieg]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Taim is not a dark friend....yet, maybe.  It just seems waaaayyy too obvious.  Unless the 13/13 circle happened.  I just think his mind is a little off due to the taint.

 

 

Oh, I'm new here so I'm trying to translate all of the abbr.  one that I'm stuck on is IIRC...can someone let this newb know what that means.  It's probably something really obvious but hey what can I do. :-\

[Gentled Ben]

If I recall correctly, IIRC stands for..."If I recall correctly."  :P

 

Im crazy enough tothink Taim may still be Be'lal; although I agree it is far more likely that he is just himself and a Chosen or atleast high ranking dreadlord in his own right.

 

I like the Be'lal is Taim theory because many things about it make sense.  One major problem, however, is that Be'lal was a very skilled swordsman while Taim seems to have and aversion to swords as he feels that powerfull channels have no need for them and considered Rand's training of the Asha'man in swordsmanship to be a waste of time.  Seems unlikly that Be'lal would espouse such an attitute toward swords.

 

Be'lal is  dead  he was balefired by moiraine.

 

IMO taim is the black tower equivalent  of alviarin

 

BKVMC, did you read the whole thread, or just the post you replied to? You see, your point about Be'lal having been balefired was already made by others and countered as well, in this very thread...

[BKVMC]

yes but it was posted again on page 3 >

[Luckers]

yes but it was posted again on page 3 >

 

I believe Ben was referring to the fact that RJ has commented that if very small amounts of balefire were used then the Dark One can indeed recycle a person--which is the basis for the claim that it is possible that Be'lal might have been recycled even though he was balefired.

 

All of this was said, which thus makes your subsequent dismissal a little confusing.

 

Myself, I think it extremely unlikely. Moiraine may not be Forsaken level strength, but she is very far from being weak, and i really dont see her qualifying for the 'small amounts' clause in the balefire issue.

 

Aside from which Be'lal and Taim are utterly different in terms of personality and methodology. Be'lal was subtle, enjoyed physical activity and prised knowledge of swordsmanship. Taim is blunt, physically innactive and disdains swords and all they entail.

[BKVMC]

ah thanks for clearing that up for me i  just got off work:) i read small amounts of balefire to mean like when rand send the fine filaments  into the dragknar ( sp) iirc  be'lal  when balefired went rather quickly.

[Luckers]

Your probably right--i dont buy the Be'lal argument myself.

[stoneface]

Taim does have a lot of AoL attitudes, which really help make him a mystery.  After his capture by AS, Taim was rescued (or exchanged captors) in a BA plot (there are enough clues in the messages about his "escape" to be pretty certain).  Lots of BA around, so the 13/13 deal to turn him to the Dark makes sense.  However, Davram Basheare did not recognize Taim; was the "I shaved" just a red herring or a valid clue?  We don't meet Mazrim Taim until he seeks out Rand, so we don't know if Taim is really Taim (in body, mind, original position about the Light and the DO).  The Flinn deal in WH is the best (or the only solid) textual clue to rule out Demandred.

 

I appreciate those who pointed out the differences in character of Taim and Bel'al; that's a textual clue that gets us beyond the "balefire or small balefire" arguments.

 

Considering that RJ called the Asmo mystery "obvious" and it is still being debated, I expect that Taim will be wrapped up in late 2009 in Book 12.

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

Sorry, BKVMC, I didn't see where you were coming from until now.  :)

I don't think that Be'lal is Taim either, although I'm entertained by the ingenuity of the theory. I think that the differences in their methods and personalities are a greater reason to disbelieve that theory than Moiraine's strength in the power though, as we really don't have a gauge as to what constituted small amounts of balefire in RJ's eyes.