Siuan's peculiar reaction...or lack thereof

[bjclinton]

Im rereading the series, and in TSR when Siuan is being taken by Elaida and her followers her Warder is killed and she doesnt even notice....no reaction.

 

Seems to be a pretty large contradiction from what we know of the border / aes sedai bond, where she should have felt his death as surely as it was her own.

 

any one else notice this?

[Moiraine_Damodred]

I actually just noticed that rereading TSR today and was wondering the same thing....

[CUBAREY]

She later explains it as her being shocked at the immediate events surrounding her capture.  It sounded a bit weak to me but I think RJ realized the problem and tried to explain it away.

[Cybertrolloc]

He also elaborated on that scene later. What's the MRP on tSR?

[BrainFireBob]

She was stilled shortly after he died, and the shock of the events going on shielded her prior.

 

She did suffer the reaction when her stilling was reversed by Nynaeve- this is stated in the text.

[Luckers]

RJ said that Alric did not die immediately from his wound, which means the sensation would not have been as bluntly obvious as the severing of the bond.

 

That being said, i too think RJ was trying to explain away an oversight.

[Tyrell]

Could be trying to not give away the fact that Danelle is Mesaana; Mesaana could easily have done something especially nasty to Alric that would have killed him slowly / not given Suian warning.

 

Although on the whole I agreee, it does seem to be somewhat of a mistake.

[Luckers]

No, Alric was stabbed. Besides, from Semirhage we know the forsaken know nothing of the bond, or its nature. And seemingly there is no way to shield the bond unless you are actually the bondee.

[Tyrell]

Didn't know the first point, forgot about the second ;)

 

*bows to superior knowledge*

[RobertAlexWillis]

Just as verification ...

 

For Roland Arien, a lot of people have asked questions about Alric’s death.  I should have made matters plainer.  As I envisioned it, Alric, having sensed Siuan’s extreme shock, came running to her and arrived just in time to be stabbed just before Siuan was taken into the anteroom.  She should have sensed the knife going in, but that was masked by her shock.  When she sees him lying there, he is dying, though not yet dead.  As I said, I should have made it plainer.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=27

[cloglord]

Okay, first off how weird is it that three of us are re-reading the same book, at the same spot, at the same time, must be taveren.

 

I had heard the bits about not noticing Alric's death before, but two other things stuck out to me about this passage.  One, Suian is suprised to find herself shielded.  Umm, how does that happen, did someone peek in through the keyhole, shield her, and then everyone storms in, or did she just happen not to notice that someone in the room was holding Saidar?  Second, Suian flat out lies here.  In my printing, she tells Elaida that there has never been a rebellion within the tower.  Unless, now that she's been unbound by the oaths, she has been lying to Egwene, there have been a number of rebellions within the tower.  So what's up with that?

[DuDZiK]

She later explains it as her being shocked at the immediate events surrounding her capture.  It sounded a bit weak to me but I think RJ realized the problem and tried to explain it away.

 

I don't think this is the case at all.

 

I think it has something to do with being stilled. The bond is something of the Power, and without the Power you probably wouldn't be able to feel the effects.

 

At any rate, when the one Asha'Man in Winter's Heart heals those Aes Sedai that Rand stilled, their reaction is the same: only then did they start weaping uncontrollably for their dead Warders.

[Tyrell]

Mmm thanks for that quote RAW, I always assumed they killed him on the way in.

 

Cloglord, yea I find these remarks alittle strange too. Possibly she believes that she has done nothing wrong so that they are rebelling as oppossed to the examples Suian tells Egwene about which were Amyrlin's / Halls being deposed by the tower as a whole for being woefully incompetent?

[BrainFireBob]

A coup and a rebellion aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

Elaida was sponsoring armed rebellion, with soldiers. That may in fact have been new- to bring in military forces.

[bjclinton]

She later explains it as her being shocked at the immediate events surrounding her capture.  It sounded a bit weak to me but I think RJ realized the problem and tried to explain it away.

 

I don't think this is the case at all.

 

I think it has something to do with being stilled. The bond is something of the Power, and without the Power you probably wouldn't be able to feel the effects.

 

At any rate, when the one Asha'Man in Winter's Heart heals those Aes Sedai that Rand stilled, their reaction is the same: only then did they start weaping uncontrollably for their dead Warders.

 

No, as I suspected, as many people stated above, RJ wasn't clear enough in the course of events while describing this scene. Small mistake that he seemed to have later addressed and fixed.

 

Your answer would have addressed why, after, she didn't feel the seperation from her Warder, but that's not what i was asking. I was wondering why she didn't actually FEEL him die....feel the knife go into his back, feel what he felt as he died a very painful death. I still find it hard to believe that her "shock" was enough to cover up a painful stabbing death, but again.....a small oversight by RJ. He's allowed  ;)

 

Its really funny that we're all rereading at the same time- Ta'veren for sure! Thanks for the responses and quotes guys

[cloglord]

A coup and a rebellion aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

Elaida was sponsoring armed rebellion, with soldiers. That may in fact have been new- to bring in military forces.

 

Siuan didn't know at that time that there were any soldiers.  If i'm not mistaken later Siuan uses the term "secret rebellions" to describe the uprisings of the past.  I'm pretty sure that's the case, but someone like RAW, Luckers or Maj could probably cite those passages from memory.  I'll do it myself if I get the time. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

There were rebellions ... but not publicly known rebellions in the sense of openly deposing the Amyrlin.  Some Amyrlins were made puppets, but the only ones actually deposed (openly before the public, which Siuan knew from Elaida's statements that this would be) were deposed in a way that Siuan, at least, would not view as rebellion.  I'm sure that Tetsuan and Bonwhin viewed it as such, however.

 

The context is the key, here.  What Elaida was leading was viewed by Siuan as an open rebellion.  What Siuan was sharing with Egwene was the history of secret rebellions.

[cloglord]

The context is the key, here.  What Elaida was leading was viewed by Siuan as an open rebellion.  What Siuan was sharing with Egwene was the history of secret rebellions.

 

This might explain it, but I don't buy it.  This seems like some mighty fine hairsplitting for a woman who RJ says was in such shock that she didn't even notice Alric getting killed on the other side of the door.

 

We still haven't even touched on the fact that apperently Siuan didn't notice someone shielding her.  Seems like a pretty obvious thing to me, even if she was shielded by someone in the other room, she would have had to at least seen the flows right?

 

Of course the three apparent discrepancies could be explained by sloppy writing, but the three together, in one place?  RJ must have been mighty distracted at the time, if that's the case....I can barely think of one or two mistakes off the top of my head, and certainly never 3 in one place.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

The context is the key, here.  What Elaida was leading was viewed by Siuan as an open rebellion.  What Siuan was sharing with Egwene was the history of secret rebellions.

 

Minor point, but, all rebellions were hidden by the White Tower (none were publicly known to have taken place) thus the distinction between open and hidden rebellions would not be a distinction that Siuan would  stress when confronted with Elaia's coup.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We still haven't even touched on the fact that apperently Siuan didn't notice someone shielding her.  Seems like a pretty obvious thing to me, even if she was shielded by someone in the other room, she would have had to at least seen the flows right?

 

That is, to me, the biggest discrepancy in the passage.

 

This might explain it, but I don't buy it.  This seems like some mighty fine hairsplitting for a woman who RJ says was in such shock that she didn't even notice Alric getting killed on the other side of the door.

 

Well ... I didn't really think of it as hairsplitting ... her shock would play into it.  She knew that Elaida was her enemy ... but she didn't expect Elaida to act this openly.  Because there had never been a rebellion carried out in this open fashion.

 

OK ... I guess it is hairsplitting  ;D ... but Aes Sedai do that instinctively.  Siuan as much as anyone.  And she would have been searching mentally for any way to take down the confidence of Elaida and her coterie.

 

Minor point, but, all rebellions were hidden by the White Tower (none were publicly known to have taken place) thus the distinction between open and hidden rebellions would not be a distinction that Siuan would  stress when confronted with Elaia's coup.

 

Actually, thats the only context in which it would make a difference ...

[cloglord]

Okay, so here's my thought on not noticing that she had been shielded.  What if none of the aes sedai saw the need to shield her?  What if they were confident enough in their numbers,( more than a dozen,) and that Siuan would be bound by the 3 oaths not to try and fight her way free, that they had not gotten around to shielding her yet?  What if one of their number was not so trusting, one who had knowledge of inverting weaves?  What if that one was Messanna?  THe leading suspect, Danelle, is present at this encounter, and if we assume that Messanna has taken a direct hand in Suian's overthrow, it wouldn't be out of line to assume that she would be present, if at all possible.  Is this a clue, that Messanna was at Suian's overthrow?  Is this a clue that Messanna is Danelle?

[Tyrell]

I was going to suggest that myself Cloglord, but I got distracted by Morrowind heh. Yeah Mesaana with an inverted / reversed shield seems like the only thing that fits, I mean Suian wasn't exactly paying attention, but surely she'd notice some shield weaves shooting at her.

 

I'd also point out that Suian couldn't break the shield, and while I don't know the strengths of all the Aes Sedai involved, IIRC Eladia is the only one around who is on Suian's level (aside from Mesaana of course who would be stronger) and she clearly wasn't holding the power till after Shian feels that she is shielded. I'm assuming Suian would be trying pretty damn hard to break that shield, given the circumstances.

[bjclinton]

We have seen a lot of examples during the series of women that could channel suddenly finding themselves in a very bad situation and then almost frantically reaching out to the true source, hoping against hope that they had not been shielded...fearful that they maybe had been, given their situation. We saw this in the stone of tear in TDR, we see this a few times in TSR (this scene in question is one example, another is earlier in the book with Nynaeve who is competant enough to see and feel the flows), so logic says that you can be blocked without even realizing it....not exactly sure how, but either RJ has had several oversights with the small details in those particular situations  or its as simple as catching someone unaware.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Certainly, assuming Danelle is Mesaana (which I believe to be the case), she is capable of making such a shield.

 

What I'm not so sure I buy is Elaida and the others not thinking that a shield is necessary ... or that Siuan wouldn't notice that her shield was inverted (or at least, not a normal one, since she doesn't really know what inverting is).  Siuan stood higher, in herself, than any of them, even laying aside her status as Amyrlin.  They weren't going to risk her even taking down one or two of them ... and besides, how would several women "overwhelm" her?  By shielding her.

 

It does seem more likely that they just caught her by surprise.

 

Or it did, until I re-read it just now ...

 

Now I'm just confused.

 

She didn't see the light of saidar around anyone, and they were all in front of her.  That would seem to indicate that the shield was indeed an inverted weave, wielded by someone who could conceal the fact that they are channeling.  Mesaana is the only one who is likely to be able to do that, of course.

 

But ... wouldn't the other Sitters have noticed?  They can see and sense saidar, too.  Are they all Black?  We know Elaida isn't ... and it seems very unlikely that Joline and Shemerin are ... so, wouldn't they say something?  If not then, maybe later?

 

Its just ... strange.  It seems like Siuan's shock extended to missing the blatantly obvious ... which stretches credulity ... or that no one noticed that Siuan was somehow shielded in a way that, as far as the Tower knows, is impossible ... which also stretches my credulity pretty far.

 

That whole scene just seems ... rushed.

 

Eladia is the only one around who is on Suian's level (aside from Mesaana of course who would be stronger) and she clearly wasn't holding the power till after Shian feels that she is shielded. I'm assuming Suian would be trying pretty damn hard to break that shield, given the circumstances.

 

The others with her were all Sitters, so they had to stand relatively high within themselves ... and a much weaker channeler can hold a shield, once it is made.  Any one of them could probably have done it.  So, strength is not really an issue, so much as not noticing the big blade of spirit about to cut you off from the source ...

 

If the Sitters had moved someone around behind her, it might make sense.  You can't see through the back of your head, and the feel of channeling is all around in the Tower.  But of course, in the narrative, we don't see any tactical maneuvering like that.

[cloglord]

We have seen a lot of examples during the series of women that could channel suddenly finding themselves in a very bad situation and then almost frantically reaching out to the true source, hoping against hope that they had not been shielded...fearful that they maybe had been, given their situation. We saw this in the stone of tear in TDR, we see this a few times in TSR (this scene in question is one example, another is earlier in the book with Nynaeve who is competant enough to see and feel the flows), so logic says that you can be blocked without even realizing it....not exactly sure how, but either RJ has had several oversights with the small details in those particular situations  or its as simple as catching someone unaware.

 

Just going from memory, the examples you give are of relatively untrained channelers, under stress.  It wasn't until the beggining of TSR that the girls began to be able to tell another channeler by feel.  I'm not sure that there is a good comparison here.

 

That whole scene just seems ... rushed.

 

Agreed, I find myself trying to find any excuse for the way it reads, but I keep coming back to that same idea, maybe RJ rushed it here, and a LOT fell through the cracks.