Choedan Kal

[Saidar]

I'm reading The Great Hunt at the moment and I've got a question about Choedan Kal.

 

Verin says you have to be with two (male & female) channelers to controle Choedan Kal otherwise you'll turn to dust. Does that mean that Rand cannot use Choedan Kal alone? And why was Lanfear so scared when Rand came close to Choedan Kal? He doesn't even know how to channel properly so there wouldn't be any danger...

 

I also have a question about Cadsuane. We all know that the Aes Sedai die 'sooner' because of their Oaths but how come Cadsuane survived this long? Aren't Aes Sedai supposed to die after +/- 200 years?

[krelianzg]

Cadsuane is indeed nearing the end of a Oath-bound Aes Sedai's lifetime. If she retires into the Kin at some point she'll have a good 3-400 more years to look forward to though.

 

Verin is wrong about the Choedan Kal. They were designed to be used in tandem, but they're properly buffered and tuned sa'angreal. There's always the danger that the user would go mad with power and try to play God(which was Rand's reason for not using them until the Cleansing), but as we saw at Rhuidean, one half of the Choedan Kal can be used without posing a  direct danger to the channeler using it.

 

Verin's info comes from piecing together scraps of info left over from the AoL. Just because she can't lie doesn't mean that she can't believe something that's not true.

 

To her credit though, most AS and Asha'man are too weak to safely use the Choedan Kal and would probably kill themselves trying to, but that has nothing to do with whether they are used together or not. IIRC, Nynaeve represents the lower-end of the spectrum when it comes to who can safely use the CK, and at the time Verin spoke about the CK, no living sister came close to that strength.

 

As for why Lanfear was so scared, it was exactly because he was so in-experienced. At that point in his OP education, most of the weaves he was using were instinctual and he had no idea what they really were. Plus, at the time his idea of fighting was firing off Balefire like it was the Fourth of July, which coupled with the amount of the OP the CK would let him hold would have been very bad

[ignavus1223]

I thought Lanfear was scared because it looked like Rand would try to use the CK without the access ter'angreal.  Trying to channel that much OP through the CK statue directly would have killed Rand and likely Lanfear.

[krelianzg]

Oh wait, just realized you're talked about the scene with Selene when they're next to the dig site. Yeah, I think you're right about that. Trying to use the CK without an access key could burn out or kill everyone for miles around. The access ter'angreal acted as the buffers for the system, the Choedan Kal themselves didn't have built in protection.

[Baldar]

One theory floating around is that any angreal with a buffer, such as the long-lost little fat man statue, used in tandem with Callandor, would protect Rand from being burned out. The buffer built into the lesser item would cover the greater.

 

Channeler -> angreal -> Callandor

 

So, it could be possible, that trying to directly access the Choedan Kal through an angreal could work the same way.

 

In practice, however, that much of the OP flowing through a lesser angreal could very well destroy it rather quickly.

[ignavus1223]

One theory floating around is that any angreal with a buffer, such as the long-lost little fat man statue, used in tandem with Callandor, would protect Rand from being burned out. The buffer built into the lesser item would cover the greater.

 

Channeler -> angreal -> Callandor

 

So, it could be possible, that trying to directly access the Choedan Kal through an angreal could work the same way.

 

In practice, however, that much of the OP flowing through a lesser angreal could very well destroy it rather quickly.

 

That's an interesting theory.  Has anyone specifically used an angreal as a conduit to draw power through another angreal?  I always thought they've been used independently when Rand has used more than one angreal. 

[krelianzg]

Indeed, we have yet to see angreal and/or sa'angreal used in series. It seems like it should work though. You can draw from an angreal or sa'angreal through a link, which works on the same principle.

 

I suppose a buffer could offer some protection from the Choedan Kal, but the fat man would probably be totally slagged by the effort.

 

I don't see how a buffer would have solved the problem of magnifying the taint however. It's not an issue now, but when the taint was still around, Callandor would have amplified the taint before it was passed through any angreal you were attempting to buffer the flow with.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, Rand did use the fat little man angreal to shield Asmodean while they were both drawing through the male Choedan Kal in Rhuidean.  So, two can be used simultaneously.  However, his POV has him drawing through the angreal separately ... while this is certainly not proof that the "use the angreal buffer to protect from Callandor" wouldn't work, it is indicative.

 

Frankly, Callandor's lack of a buffer isn't terribly dangerous now ... it just means that the channeler has to pay attention like when they are normally channeling.  After all, you don't have a buffer when you channel without any kind of angreal.  What made Callandor extra dangerous before was that it its lack of a buffer also somehow enhanced the taint's effect on the wielder.  Now that the taint is cleansed, its relatively safe to use, if you're careful, even for a man alone.

 

As to the "why wasn't it scrapped" theory ... it wasn't scrapped because it is immensely powerful, even in AoL terms.  You don't scrap useful tools just because they're dangerous ... you're just extra careful when using them.

[krelianzg]

Actually, Rand did use the fat little man angreal to shield Asmodean while they were both drawing through the male Choedan Kal in Rhuidean.  So, two can be used simultaneously. 

 

Precisely. In parallel, not in series. 8)

[hurryupnwait]

He did not use the power from that angreal to shield Asmodean, that little amount of power through the angreal would not be enough to accomplish that feat.  He used that extra bit of power to cut off Asmodean from the Dark One.  The shock of that is how Rand overcame him. 

[Baldar]

Actually, Rand did use the fat little man angreal to shield Asmodean while they were both drawing through the male Choedan Kal in Rhuidean.  So, two can be used simultaneously.  However, his POV has him drawing through the angreal separately ... while this is certainly not proof that the "use the angreal buffer to protect from Callandor" wouldn't work, it is indicative.

 

It just hasn't been tried in the books, drawing on angreal and sa'angreal in series, there just haven't been that many around for anyone to have studied the effects that thoroughly. IMO, it should work just fine.

 

I suppose a buffer could offer some protection from the Choedan Kal, but the fat man would probably be totally slagged by the effort.

 

It could possibly work for a short period of time, but yeah, it would get fried rather quickly.

 

I suppose I'm just trying to find a way for the female Choedan Kal to be used in TG, either by Nynaeve or someone else. Unless they can repair the key in Tanchico or find another, there has to be a way to access the main statue. If this theory holds true, perhaps they could use the flute sa'angreal in the WT. I'm sure it could handle more of the OP than just about any other item out there.

[RobertAlexWillis]

He did not use the power from that angreal to shield Asmodean, that little amount of power through the angreal would not be enough to accomplish that feat.  He used that extra bit of power to cut off Asmodean from the Dark One.  The shock of that is how Rand overcame him.

 

Correct.  My mistake.  The point remains ... we've seen them used in parallel, not in series.  And when Rand wanted to use two of them, he didn't use them in series, he used them in parallel, which was my point, krelianzg.  We've seen two used simultaneously ... and it wasn't in series.

 

Without seeing it tried, there's no way to predict what would happen ... it is my personal opinion that it doesn't work that way, but thats certainly not proof.

[Kura]

I suppose I'm just trying to find a way for the female Choedan Kal to be used in TG, either by Nynaeve or someone else. Unless they can repair the key in Tanchico or find another, there has to be a way to access the main statue. If this theory holds true, perhaps they could use the flute sa'angreal in the WT. I'm sure it could handle more of the OP than just about any other item out there.

 

First, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it more akin to a wand? A bit fuzzy on that, but I'm almost positive the actual female CK was obliterated, ending the time of Illusions on Trellmaking, yadadada.

 

 

[Baldar]

Well, I'll be damned. Now I remember, the one in Tremalking melted and everyone on the island pulled a Jim Jones.

[Tyrell]

The female one is toast indeed.

 

As for callandor, just use it in a circle, isn't it specifically stated that being in a link/circle protects you by not allowing the controler of the link to draw more than you can handle?

[Ko´bal]

You´re right about the CK Tyrell!

 

About Callandor I seem to remember that the only thing a circle protected against was the agressiveness of the male channeler when in contact with the sword. If the link is controled by a woman it´s safer. When a man uses it on his own he gets more agressive. I think that Cadsuane tells Rand that in Cairhien and that´s when he desides to use CK for the cleansing.

 

You could be right about there being a stopper against drawing in too much power when in circle. It sounds reasonable.