Mat's Luck

[DuDZiK]

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Do you mean to say that Mat was meant to have the dagger by Ba'alzamon? Or that he simply knew that one of the three ta'varen he was after would be characterized by a dagger?

 

I would think the latter, remember when Rand first sees Ishy in a Dream, he sees three small statutes, a young man with a sword, a young man with a dagger, etc.

 

Yes... but that doesn't answer my question of whether Ba'alzamon meant Mat to have the dagger from Shadar Logoth, or simply knew that one of the three would have a dagger, the origin and nature of which being unknown to him.

[CUBAREY]

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Yes... but that doesn't answer my question

 

Okay, maybe my answer could have been clearer; he knew that one of the three would have a dagger.  He would of have to have had a very clear view of the future (know that there was a dagger in SL, that Mat would find it and keep it,or do what was necessary to see that Mat found and kept it, etc.) to assume that Ishemael intended Mat to have the dagger.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Yeah ... Ishy knew some freaky stuff in the first few books ... I thought for a while that he just had some cool Dark Prophecies that no one knew about ... but some bits don't fit that pattern.  For instance he associated the Horn with Mat in his subliminal instructions to Bors, way before Mat ever blew it?  But he seemed to have not know that Mat blew it, when he was talking to Rand at Falme ...

 

All of which makes me wonder ... I've discussed elsewhere the possibility that the ultimate side effect of using the True Power is that Shai'tan's will basically takes yours over, eventually.  If true, it could not only be a contributing factor to Ishamael's madness, but I wonder if it could also let Shai'tan take direct control of Ishamael from time to time, to make personal nudges that maybe even Ishy didn't know about.

 

We wouldn't see it now, in Moridin, because Shai'tan has Shaidar Haran to play with ... and we never did get any Ishamael POVs ...

 

Hmmph.

 

If it was done during the dreams in Baerlon, then the timing is perfect, of course.  They did nothing between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth except ride, so the luck wouldn't have really have had any way to manifest.

 

It still leaves me wondering ... what did Ishy or Shai'tan hope to gain?  And if a deal was struck, that Mat simply doesn't remember, why hasn't the Shadow called it due?

[BrainFireBob]

I figured it was the "friend" part of "an old friend, an old enemy" that Aginor and Balthamel tracked- if Fain saw Mat, he might have a mark on his forehead.

 

Tracking occured to me, as did the possibility that Mat has three things using him to see what goes on- Snakes, Foxes, and the Shadow (dream with the raven entering his eye).

[Tyrell]

Isn't the raven a Seanchan reference, specifically Seanchan royalty.

[DuDZiK]

Didn't Mat's luck only manifest itself after the dagger was destroyed in The Dragon Reborn?

[BrainFireBob]

He was abnormally lucky before that somewhat.

 

The question is whether or not the dagger "hid" or "suppressed" his luck- lucky to remain as much himself as he did, wasn't he?- or if the Healing then caused it.

[Pukah]

Around the same time that Mat got the dagger (and got lucky), Perrin started sensing wolves.  And Rand had just barely started channaling right before that.  May just be me, but I don't think that the wolf talk of Perrin's as anything to do with the dagger. I also don't think that Rand's channaling as anything to do with that either.  So is it really hard to believe that Mat's luck has nothing to do with the dagger? 

 

I believe that the three main male characters all started changing around the same time.  Evolving into the ta'varan, and getting their special powers.

[CUBAREY]

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Tracking occured to me, as did the possibility that Mat has three things using him to see what goes on- Snakes, Foxes, and the Shadow (dream with the raven entering his eye).

 

They were able to track Mat because of the evil eminating from the dagger. It was akin to their own evil at the same time opposite it.

 

The raven is also a scavanger and a creature of the DO, however, most readers believe that these Dream implies that Mat will loose an eye in the future.

[BrainFireBob]

Aginor stated that it was Mat.

 

The dagger's part of that, but it's not necessarily the limitation.

 

And *that* dream was a Ba'alzamon dream. Rand and Perrin woke before it entered their eye- Mat was shaken awake saying "My eye."

 

I'm putting forward it's possible he was made a Shadoweyes.

[professorskar]

I've actually heard that proposed as why Mat will be forced to lose an eye...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm putting forward it's possible he was made a Shadoweyes.

 

That leaves a number of unanswered questions ...

 

First off, the only human that we know of who has been made into something like a Shadoweyes is Padan Fain ... and I think you'd be the first to admit that there's pretty much no way that Mat's experience was anything like Fains ... so we're left with the first question; how could Ba'alzamon do it?

 

Second ... every Shadoweyes (both the animals normally used as well as Padan Fain) has to report for their knowledge to be used.  Did Ba'alzamon anticipate getting Mat to report?  If not ... why would he bother?

 

Third ... assuming, for a moment, that the second question doesn't exist, and that Ba'alzamon did have a way to get information out of Mat's head without having him consent or report ... why hasn't he made better use of it?  He's put the hit out on Mat ... but apparently doesn't know where he is.  Surely if he could access that knowledge, he could arrange something a little better.

 

(There is a potential answer to the third question in Mat's ter'angreal ... it wards his dreams ... but there was a pretty long period before he got it, in which Ba'alzamon didn't seem to know much more about Mat than he did about anyone else ... and even if the third question is answered, the first and second remain.)

[trakand_01]

Well if Mat is a shadoweyes (which i dont personally believe but hey ho i could be wrong) then the DO has had a pretty good show  ;) ;D :-* :P. Bit like a free subscription to randland-playboytv

[Kura]

I'm putting forward it's possible he was made a Shadoweyes.

 

That leaves a number of unanswered questions ...

 

First off, the only human that we know of who has been made into something like a Shadoweyes is Padan Fain ... and I think you'd be the first to admit that there's pretty much no way that Mat's experience was anything like Fains ... so we're left with the first question; how could Ba'alzamon do it?

 

Second ... every Shadoweyes (both the animals normally used as well as Padan Fain) has to report for their knowledge to be used.  Did Ba'alzamon anticipate getting Mat to report?  If not ... why would he bother?

 

Third ... assuming, for a moment, that the second question doesn't exist, and that Ba'alzamon did have a way to get information out of Mat's head without having him consent or report ... why hasn't he made better use of it?  He's put the hit out on Mat ... but apparently doesn't know where he is.  Surely if he could access that knowledge, he could arrange something a little better.

 

(There is a potential answer to the third question in Mat's ter'angreal ... it wards his dreams ... but there was a pretty long period before he got it, in which Ba'alzamon didn't seem to know much more about Mat than he did about anyone else ... and even if the third question is answered, the first and second remain.)

 

Well, I have a potential answer to the questions, based on the threat that mogy, I think, gave to Nynaeve. In T'A'R, it is possible to have people take a certain form, and characteristics that they don't exhibit in the waking world. I beleived Mogy threatened Ny with transforming her into a horse when she was in T'A'R? Anyone got quotes, i'm at school.

 

Anyways, that could be how he had been tapping Mat. Mat reports when he is in T'A'R, which he hasn't been in a good long while. Ishy bent mat to his will in T'A'R somehow, probably by mat accepting some sort of deal, which would explain the reasoning of giving him his increased luck, and later (I think; not sure when the raven and "My Eye!" was said, he became shadow eyes. Its spotchy, but I can't think of any better way of connecting them.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In T'A'R, it is possible to have people take a certain form, and characteristics that they don't exhibit in the waking world

 

But they don't keep those characteristics when they are out of Tel'aran'rhiod.  If Ishamael could have made that sort of change, and gotten that sort of report, why did he have to wait for Padan Fain to make a trip to Shayol Ghul every year in person?

 

Also ... does Ishamael just wipe Mat's memory every time?  If he was regularly being snatched into T'A'R, changed into something else, and giving information to Ba'alzamon ... wouldn't he know?  Or at least feel ... something?

 

But after the dream in Baerlon, his dreaming continues to follow the pattern of Rand's (Perrin gets his protection first, of course).

 

I'm afraid I'm advocating here, again, for the simple answer.  Mat got his eye pecked in the dream, which was in Ba'alzamon's wierd psuedo-T'A'R.

[BrainFireBob]

I'd say first the dagger (because the Shadow and the SL taint don't work together)- then Mat's avoidance of responsibility and Rand would've worked in the Pattern's favor. Mat never knew what was going on- he was dragged along for the ride by how own willful decision toward ignorance. Maybe Mat in the back recalls- or from the Portal Stone worlds- and that's part of why he avoids Rand.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'd say first the dagger (because the Shadow and the SL taint don't work together)- then Mat's avoidance of responsibility and Rand would've worked in the Pattern's favor.

 

Ba'alzamon demonstrably got into Mat's dreams both when he was near Rand, and after Mat picked up the dagger ... so I'm afraid I don't buy that at all.

 

Maybe Mat in the back recalls- or from the Portal Stone worlds- and that's part of why he avoids Rand.

 

You know ... Mat never really avoids Rand.  The only time that he leaves Rand (without Rand sending him away) is when Verin took him to the Tower to get Healed.  Then he went straight back to Rand (albeit unknowingly) and stayed with him until he was sent away.  He wanted to leave (at least on a conscious level) but never did ... and Mat thinks and says a lot of things on a conscious level that he doesn't really mean at all.

 

I think the most obvious case of this, illustrating the point most clearly, is when Rand enters the crystal pillars ter'angreal at Rhuidean.  Mat is shouting "I'm not coming in after you" but thinking "If he's not out in a hour, I'm going in after him".

 

As for what he saw in the Portal Stone worlds on the way to Falme ... that could have been almost anything, and have little or no bearing on the real world at all.  I don't really see how that could be considered evidence of a real connection between him and Ba'alzamon.

 

All of which leaves question one unanswered ... how could Ba'alzamon do that to Mat, against his will, just through a dream or two?  He had to take Padan Fain, a willing Darkfriend, all the way to Shayol Ghul in person to make similar changes in him ... and had to take him back there to get his reports.  Sure, Ba'alzmon has some funky dream powers, but that doesn't mean he can just do anything.

 

The colloquial phrase "the Dark One's own luck" doesn't mean "luck from the Dark One", it means "incredibly good luck".  When people say that Mat has "the Dark One's own luck", they're not accusing him of being a Darkfriend.  Mat undeniably has "incredibly good luck", so Jordan's statement is quite true, without having to mean that Mat got his luck from the Dark One.  As mad as Mat wants to get about it, he does have "incredibly good luck".

[BrainFireBob]

Mat personally avoided Rand- afraid to be too close. He associated with him directly as little as possible.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Mat personally avoided Rand- afraid to be too close.

 

In a purely token fashion.  He moved to the other side of the camp. OOOOOooooo.  ::)

 

The fact is, he always ended up right there next to Rand, until Rand sent him away in Lord of Chaos ... and he only really tried to leave once, right at the end of TFoH.  And he felt bad about it.  Rand practically had to push him out the door when he came to the tent to say "goodbye".

 

Classic case of "say one thing, do something totally different".  Mat does that an awful lot, you know ...

 

And even if he did want to leave, deep down ... do we really have to manufacture a reason?  The one he gives holds up pretty well.  "Rand is probably going to go insane and kill everyone around him".  Do we really need more than that?

 

All the things you bring up can not only be explained by other, verified facts, but are more simply explained by those other things.

 

-sigh- And at the risk of seeming like I'm banging the same drum again and again ... how did Ba'alzamon make the change?  Why should we believe that Mat touching an image of himself and getting his dream eye pecked out (maybe) is enough for Ba'alzamon to change him into a Shadoweyes, when a much more elaborate procedure was necessary for a willing Darkfriend?  We have a verified example to compare with here ... lets not ignore it.

[Paviel]

Why should we believe that Mat touching an image of himself and getting his dream eye pecked out (maybe) is enough for Ba'alzamon to change him into a Shadoweyes, when a much more elaborate procedure was necessary for a willing Darkfriend?  We have a verified example to compare with here ... lets not ignore it.

 

Are you referring to the 13-AS-13-Fade procedure that can turn anybody into a Darkfriend? If so, may I presume that you mean "an unwilling Darkfriend"? I don't quite understand what you mean by "a willing Darkfriend"...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Are you referring to the 13-AS-13-Fade procedure that can turn anybody into a Darkfriend? If so, may I presume that you mean "an unwilling Darkfriend"? I don't quite understand what you mean by "a willing Darkfriend"...

 

No, because Mat's not a channeler, so he's completely immune to that.  I'm talking about "a willing Darkfriend" like Padan Fain, who was intentionally cooperating with Ba'alzamon at the time, as opposed to "someone other than a willing Darkfriend", like Mat, who was not.

[professorskar]

Are you referring to the 13-AS-13-Fade procedure that can turn anybody into a Darkfriend? If so, may I presume that you mean "an unwilling Darkfriend"? I don't quite understand what you mean by "a willing Darkfriend"...

 

No, because Mat's not a channeler, so he's completely immune to that.  I'm talking about "a willing Darkfriend" like Padan Fain, who was intentionally cooperating with Ba'alzamon at the time, as opposed to "someone other than a willing Darkfriend", like Mat, who was not.

 

And to clarify on what you meant, RAW, the elaborate process being that Fain had to be taken physically to Shayol Ghul to be turned into the hound, and had to report there again, physically, as well.

[BrainFireBob]

Yet someone did give Mat extra luck, according to RJ, and that's the one window where he could have been "altered" and had it have been under most of our radars- our alternatives are: Side effects from other processes.

 

We are told several times that things possible in dreams aren't possible in the waking world. *shrug* Shortly, we don't have enough information to judge. I'm looking for the Graendal analog- the least *unlikely*. Which means weighing them all.

[trakand_01]

Can someone remind me the AS who separated Mat from the dagger / healed him?

[Majsju]

Can someone remind me the AS who separated Mat from the dagger / healed him?

 

It was  full circle.