Dragon Reborn querie

[Artos]

In the DR, there is a scene where Rand attacks a merchant and her guards unprovoked. How does he figure they are dark friends? Whats the deal?

[Luckers]

In part its his dreams, in part its reckless, and in part it has to do with the Grey Man amongst them.

[Ahaz Flagg]

In part its his dreams, in part its reckless, and in part it has to do with the Grey Man amongst them.

 

Not that i am in a position to dispute you Luckers, but i am certian that teh grey man was not found until they were all dead.  Remember, he counted at the end and there was one extra man.

 

I was never certian based on what was written, but i think he was just flipping out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Not that i am in a position to dispute you Luckers, but i am certian that teh grey man was not found until they were all dead.  Remember, he counted at the end and there was one extra man.

 

Thats how we know it was a Grey Man.  Rand counted, but did not see him at first, because he was a Grey Man, and thats what Grey Men do.  But, because Rand is a channeler, he could feel the taint of said Grey Man, and so instinctively knew that the group was somehow linked to the Shadow.

 

So, being in a somewhat unstable frame of mind to start with (because of his dreams, and because he was feeling reckless), he attacked.

 

After a Grey Man is dead, there is no problem seeing its corpse, and so Rand counted it in the post-mortem count.

[elmis]

I always thought it was a group of Darkfriends, with the woman being an "uber-darkfriend", one so far gone that Aes Sedai, ect had a chance of sensing them up close - that's something that has been downplayed in the later books, but Moiraine said it in tEotW. I seem to recall that Rand thinks, "take the woman first, she's the most dangerous", or some such. But on the other hand, as RAW posts, it could be that he was on edge about the woman, any woman, due to dreams filled with Lanfear or whatnot.

 

You don't feel Grey Men, remember in TGH when the Siuan says to Agelmar that Grey Men got withing a few feet of her with Warders, guards and Aes Sedai all around?

 

Another such scene is from tFoH, when the Grey Men attack Rand in his suite, he spots them then, but I don't recall him feeling anything. They're very hard to spot, but not invisible, the Aiel guards (non-channelers) had also killed a few that didn't make it into the suite.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Also I think Rand was being hunted down at this point in the book, wasn't he? If I remember he was dealing with Darkhounds and all sorts so he possibly wasn't in the mood to be very trusting. I realize the his '6th sense' probably had more to do with things but the fact he was hunted probably made him act that bit quicker, especially against a woman.

[CrazyMike]

Ok, guys, I am certain of this  >:( anyone can see a Grey Man and everyone does see them,,, they are not cloaked or invisible ,,, BUT, when you see them you do not notice them,,, they are unimportant , not worthy of notice ect. kinda like the janitor at the mall changing waste paper containers or sweeping up or putting soap in a dispenser,,, or like any one single pedestrian on a crowded New York City Street ,,,, they blend in and appear to belong where they are and your mind skips over them , maybe there is some compulsion in the way they are made so that they appear everyday and ordinary and as tho they belong where they are in an everyday and ordinary way  ;D

[The Dragon Reborn]

Ok, guys, I am certain of this  >:( anyone can see a Grey Man and everyone does see them,,, they are not cloaked or invisible ,,, BUT, when you see them you do not notice them,,, they are unimportant , not worthy of notice ect. kinda like the janitor at the mall changing waste paper containers or sweeping up or putting soap in a dispenser,,, or like any one single pedestrian on a crowded New York City Street ,,,, they blend in and appear to belong where they are and your mind skips over them , maybe there is some compulsion in the way they are made so that they appear everyday and ordinary and as tho they belong where they are in an everyday and ordinary way  ;D

It's actually even more severe a reaction than that. I at least one case I remember from the books someone noticed a Grey Man and their eyes still tried to slide away from the man, not wanting to see him....

I'm gone off looking for the exact quote.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Lord of Chaos Ch. 28 Letters

"Rand had to look carefully to see the tall man in a gray coat that neither Maiden saw at all as he glided right past them, dark lifeless eyes fixed on Rand. Even concentrating, Rand found his own gaze wanting to slide past the Gray Man"

[Ahaz Flagg]

In that scene, he counted 11 soldiers and the women, after he sliced and diced than he noticed there were 13, one extra man.  we can assume it was grey man.  That does not mean the grey man was with them.

 

 

Later or mabe before, perrin smells somethig that is not right, and than he notices the 3 grey men.  

 

in the next book, a grey man gets into rands room after killing all the aiel guards.

 

What is an interesting note, is Lan gives Perrin a thumb up for noticing them.

 

Moraine discusses with the two river folks about grey men, and while i forget the words, Grey men can not be sensed like other shadow spawn.  Perrin has his wolf gift that allowed him to sense them.

 

There is no conclusive evidence that the twelve people rand killed were Freinds of the Dark.

[Darth_Andrea]

I honestly think it's more to do with the fact that they had their souls removed. Living things without souls don't register in the mind.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[RobertAlexWillis]

You don't feel Grey Men, remember in TGH when the Siuan says to Agelmar that Grey Men got withing a few feet of her with Warders, guards and Aes Sedai all around?

 

Channelers can feel Gray Men ... but it is more difficult, and only the most sensitive can feel them before they get close enough.  To Quote, from LoC ch 28:

 

The door opened gently and he looked up, but saw nothing and returned to the letter, wondering whether he had dug out everything that was in it.  Reading, he rubbed his nose.  Lews Therin and his talk of death.  Rand could not rid himself of that feel of filth.

 

(What actually just happened there is the Gray Man entered the room.  Notice that although Rand did not "see" him, even when the door opened for no reason, he still had a "feel of filth".  Because he was preoccupied at the moment, he wrote it off as Lews Therin.  This is evidenced by what happens, five line down.  To quote again:)

 

Suddenly everything came clear in his head.  The door has opened.  He was smelling filth, not just feeling it, but it was not really a smell.  Dropping the letter, he pushed Aviendha away ...

 

skipping extraneous description

 

Rand had to look carefully to see the tall man in a gray coat that neither Maiden saw at all as he glided by them, dark lifeless eyes fixed on Rand.  Even concentrating, Rand found his gaze wanting to slide past the Gray Man.

 

He then goes on to wrap the Gray Man up with Air, and Taim kills it, etc etc.

 

So, what did we learn, boys and girls?

 

Rand can feel the presence of Gray Men.  However, Aviendha didn't seem to notice anything.  The taint of one kind of Shadowspawn can be more or less difficult to detect than the taint of others.  Trollocs and Myrddraal are relatively easy to detect.  Gray Men are much more difficult.

 

According to Moiraine, a channeler's sensitivity to Shadowspawn depends on his or her strength in the Power.  Since Rand is pretty much as strong as they come, his sensitivity is very high.  However, Aviendha is stronger than basically everyone in the Tower, and she apparently felt nothing.  So, it makes perfect sense that none of the Aes Sedai at Fal Dara felt the Gray Man that Ingtar let in during TGH, but Rand could feel the Gray Man with the group in TDR.

 

This also explains why Moiraine could not sense the Gray Men in TDR ch 42.  They can only be sensed by the very strongest, and Moiraine is not strong enough.

 

Back to the original incident in question; there is, indeed, no conclusive evidence in the books that the 11 men and female merchant with the Gray Man were Darkfriends.  Rand simply reached that conclusion because of the taint he felt near their group.  He probably didn't even know what it was that he felt at the time, just that it was wrong, and that it was coming from their vicinity.  Even when he could feel the Gray Man, he still had a hard time seeing him, until he was dead.

 

However, according to Encyclopaedia WOT, Jordan has confirmed that the female merchant, at least, was a Darkfriend.

[Luckers]

Indeed, whilst Rand did not directly notice the Grey Man, he was reacting to his presense even though he focused that reaction on the only people he could see, the only thing he could possibly understand to be dangerous nearby (recall Rand had no knowledge of what Grey Men are at that stage).

[bjclinton]

Grey Men cannot be detected easily by channellers. In fact, both Moiraine and Lan were very surprised (if you remember) that Perrin was able to sense the Grey man in the Inn that they were staying at when it was after Perrin....yet they could not. I'm pretty sure it was in the beginning of TDR. Perrin was able to smell the evil and wrongness of them in a way that even Aes Sedai and Warders could not detect them. I also seem to remember that the reason that they could not detect him was because he was somehow warded by someone (most likely Sammael, because they were in Illian) so that they were not able to detect him.

 

Also, I remember the scene that this post is about very well, because I recently finished reading TDR and he was not aware that there was a grey man until after the fact. He was surprised to find the extra person there after he counted the corpses and said something like "hmm...one more than I thought- it looks like you put yourself in w/ the wrong company tonight my friend" and he chalked it up to the fact that there was someone with them that he didnt expect.

 

Based on his reactions throughout his journey, he was attacked nearly every night by groups of darkfriends that were hunting him down. We see this both from his POV as he is planning for the group in question and also from Egwene's POV when he almost attacks her in TAR because they're coming after him in both the waking world as well as in TAR. We also see it from Perrin's POV in the Wolf Dream when Rand almost blasts him with a Fireball....Rand, fortunately or unfortuantely, was killing anyone that came near him. He was paranoid, desperate and hunted. In this particular case (as was probably the case in all of those situations) he rightly did away w/ the groups of darkfriends.