Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin

[cloglord]

I may have posted this before, or someone else might have beaten me to it, but in either case it has not been discussed here in rcent memory.

 

I am struck by the capitalisation or "Moridin" in the inscription on the Horn of Valere.  With the exception of when Mat is yelling at the Aes Sedai who are healing him in the Old Tounge, I do not recall an instance when a portion of the middle of a OT phrase is capitalized.  I am by no means an expert in OP grammar or sentence structure, but the use of Capitals would indicate to me the use of a proper noun, which would further lead me to believe that the term, "Moridin" instead of moridin meant that Ishmael will be no bar to its call.  He certainly was not when it was first blown at Falme. 

 

If I am correct in my assumption that it is the person and not the idea of death that is referenced, that of course begs the question of how/why Moridin will be present and how he would present a bar to the horn's blowing at TG.

[Luckers]

The simple issue is that people innevitably personify death. And I mean that in the universal sense; there has been in every culture, society and religion that I have ever studied some form of myth, story or belief involving death action as personal being.

 

Between the two states... that RJ was waxing poetic by refering to death as an entity that 'could not bar the call of the Horn', and that it was a reference to Moridin the man, i think it is the first... after all, Moridin barring the call of the Horn would be a success, not an innevitable effect that the Horn over came. It doesn't match the language.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Since the Horn was made before Ishamael was born, much less re-incarnated as Moridin, for the specific purpose of bringing dead people into the world temporarily, I think its safe to say that the word "moridin", capitalized or not, means precisely what it says: "death" in it's generic form, translated as "the grave".  

 

Obviously, if your idea is correct, the inscription is a prophecy, rather than simply decorative and descriptive.  A very vague prophecy at that.  

 

It is much more likely in my opinion that either:

 

1. In Old Tongue syntax, Moridin, as the central word in the sentence, was the only one that needed to be capitalized, or  

 

2. The Old Tongue analog for a capital "M" looked pretty, so they capitalized it in the inscription.

 

The fact that in the only prophecy we know about, "Moridin" is not translated as the word "Death" (Moridin in proper noun form), but as "the grave" (death in a generic form) leads me to believe that the engraving does not refer to Ishamael's reincarnated form.

 

It also seems like an unnecessary prophecy ... telling you what won't happen, in a very non-specific way.  Thats as useful as a prophecy that "Fat Grey Sheep are no Bar to my Call".

 

It would sure pander to Ishy's ego if the Horn did mention him particularly, though ...

 

It is an oddity.  But I think this is a case of reading too much into too little.

[cloglord]

It is much more likely in my opinion that either:

 

1. In Old Tongue syntax, Moridin, as the central word in the sentence, was the only one that needed to be capitalized, or 

 

2. The Old Tongue analog for a capital "M" looked pretty, so they capitalized it in the inscription.

 

Your first hypothesis does not seem to be supported by the phrase itself, as "Tia" is also capitalized. 

 

As for your second statement, it also does not seem to hold true.

 

Suravye ninto manshima taishite

Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Caballein misain ye

Inde muaghde Aes Sedai misain ye

 

All of these phrases buck that trend.

 

In fact the phrase in question is the only one that seems to buck the trends established by the other OT phrases found in the book.  The Author of the Compleat old Tongue comments on the oddity of this phrase.

 

{quote]Tia mi aven Moridin isainde vadin = The grave is no bar to my call.

    The phrase on the Horn of Valere. Probably literally "To my call,

    death isn't bar". "Tia" means "to", "mi" means "my", "aven"

    means "call", "moridin" means "death", "isainde" means "isn't",

    and "vadin" means "bar" or "barrier". Another interpretation of

    this stems from the fact that the above does not conform to the

    fairly standard predicate-verb-subject word order. Under that

    interpretation, this would probably literally be "To my call,

    barrier isn't call" changing the meaning of "Moridin" to "barrier"

    and "vadin" to "death". My personal opinion is that the

    capitalization of "Moridin" indicates that it means "death" as

    there is relatively little reason to capitalize "barrier". This

    is a sentence from _The_Eye_of_the_World_, so the nonstandard

    word can be justified.

 

Simply this phrase does not fit with ANY other phrases found in the books.  There does appear to be a standard use for capitalization, and this phrase doesn't fit.

 

Moridin barring the call of the Horn would be a success, not an innevitable effect that the Horn over came. It doesn't match the language.

 

It does seem to fit at least some of the circumstances.  In a very specific way during TGH ishmael was attempting to prevent the horn's sounding, by sending it with the wondergirls across the Aryth ocean.  If it were as simple as using the horn for the forces of darkness, Ishmael had several months, while it was in Turak's possession, for Suroth or some other random DF to steal it and play Revelry, Taps or any other tune they wanted.

 

I also find the likelyhood that Moridin will be present at its second sounding to be indicative as well.  If Moridin was present at its first sounding, and its second sounding, then it seems to be at least a double entendre that "Moridin" means both "death" and the man himself.  Assuming that Moridin isn't hoping that the horn will be blown, and that he will be actively trying to stop it from being blown.  It doesn't have to be an either or proposition, given the nature of the horn it is clear that its power negates death, but if it has a deeper meaning as well, it could help explain the problems of syntax.  Presumably there would be no typos on the the Horn of Valere.

 

 

I found something else that I found interesting, the snippet of dragon prophecy from the WH prolouge.

 

The seals that hold back night shall weaken,

      and in the heart of winter shall winter's heart be born

      amid the wailing of lamentations and the gnashing of teeth,

      for winter's heart shall ride a black horse,

and the name of it is Death.

 

If you recall, Moridin resurfaces during the middle of winter of that year, and plays prominently in the books aroung this quote.  Note that the reference is to the personification of Death.

 

[zshadez]

It's not really a double entendre since at the time of the first blowing (in this age) he wasn't referred to as Moridin. If a prophecy as you're saying then there would have to be a personification of death present at each blowing.

 

"Some guy who will eventually decide it'd be kinda cool to refer to himself as death is no bar to my call" just doesn't have the right ring to it.

 

Also, death is often personified and capitalized in literature. This doesn't mean it's refering to the character now called Moridin. The phrase is as it has been. It's nothing vague or mysterious, it's simply saying it's call reaches the dead.

[cloglord]

It's not really a double entendre since at the time of the first blowing (in this age) he wasn't referred to as Moridin. If a prophecy as you're saying then there would have to be a personification of death present at each blowing.

 

Possibly, but we also know very little about how often the horn of valere has been blown.  We do know for sure that it has been blown only once in the last two ages, maybe it only gets blown at the end of the third age, and since we know that Moridin has been reborn thousands of time to fight at TG, it wouldn't be a stretch at all.  It wouldn't be some random guy calling himself death, it would be the same guy calling himself death attempting to stop the horn from being used for its intended purpose, once or twice for every turing of the wheel.  In fact, unless you assume that the pattern was created with a Horn of Valere in it to begin with, the Horn, like everything else will have to be destroyed and then remade.  What's to say that the Horn wasn't created in the age before the AoL, never blown, lost, hid, found, blown, hid, blown for TG, and then destroyed.  Maybe during the last turning of the Wheel the Horn of Valere read "Tia mi aven Buford isainde vadin"  Who knows?

 

Also, death is often personified and capitalized in literature. This doesn't mean it's refering to the character now called Moridin.

 

Yes, in literature it has often been personified, I believe that Luckers mentioned this in his earlier post.  My point was that in this specific literature, IE the WoT and the Old Tongue, it has not been, except here, and in another prophetic reference that also probably linked to the man who calls himself Moridin.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I guess if someone spoke the Old Tongue they could help out.  I personally could never really work out the logistics of how the language worked from the few phrases and names in the stories.

 

There isn't an English-to-Old-Tongue translation key is there?

[cloglord]

Here's a link to Aaron Bergman's Compleat Old Toungue guide.

 

http://www.drosi.de/wot/wt_tongu.htm

[zshadez]

The main problem is there really isn't anything to discuss or debate. It says what it says and nothing else is implied. Drive it in to the ground if you're really that desperate for soemthing to talk about, but it's really just a waste of time.

 

Even "Who killed Asmodean?" is a better question than "What can we read too much in to for no real reason?" :p

[Luckers]

Be careful zshadez. We don't put up with no realistic jibber-jabber here.

[lou]

well, that was rude. i hate unprovoked rudeness. if you dont care for the thread content, dont read or post. simple as that.

 

i can certainly see moridan in the "winter's heart" prophesy, but i am less certain that the horn prophesy was meant in any way connected to moridan. would you happen to know if moridan named himself or was given the name by the DO or SH (who gave the gars thier names)?

[cloglord]

The main problem is there really isn't anything to discuss or debate. It says what it says and nothing else is implied. Drive it in to the ground if you're really that desperate for soemthing to talk about, but it's really just a waste of time.

 

Ordinarily I would be an @ssho!e and say something I probably shouldn't, but this morning I downloaded the collected RJ commentary that was posted on these boards earlier today.  I found something that RJ said in a letter to Carolyn Fusinato to be pertinent to my interactions here, and I think that they adequately express my thoughts about most of the loony things that I put up here for discussion, I'll quote him here.

 

Don't worry too greatly about how much of what you said there that you actually believe. The purpose of the sort of discourse you engaged in is not so much to express belief as to explore ideas and possibilities. you say, if this, then mmaybe that, and if both things, then ths other should follow. None of that is saying that you necessarily believe in any of the points, though it can lead to belief in various things. It is a good way to reason out what you do belive in. Much better than simply taking someone else's word for it.

 

So ZshadeZ, if you want to discuss this, great.  If not, that's fine too.  If you want to have a debate about the uselessness of debate, go ahead and start a thread, and I'll be happy to argue with you.

[lou]

i like that quote a great deal. debate is good, ideas are good, imagination is good. you dont have to agree with everyone all the time, unless you are a sheep to follow where you are lead.

 

back to the moridan and the horn prophesy. i had wondered if moridan had named himself, and if he did, perhaps he did so in an effort to manipulate prophesy?

[zshadez]

I wasn't meaning to troll, only scoff. Any theory needs a good scoffing every now and then. :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

If you recall, Moridin resurfaces during the middle of winter of that year, and plays prominently in the books aroung this quote.  Note that the reference is to the personification of Death.

 

That was from Winter's Heart.  Moridin re-appeared two books and several months earlier, in A Crown of Swords.  Sorry ... don't see it.

 

I just don't see any purpose in putting a prophecy about what is not going to happen, in a place where no one would understand it anyway.  I mean, none of the people who have seen to Horn or can use it know who Moridin is, and even Rand who has seen him and has some idea that he is bad doesn't know his name is Moridin.

 

I just can't see any way in which this would be useful.

 

 

[cloglord]

That was from Winter's Heart.  Moridin re-appeared two books and several months earlier, in A Crown of Swords.  Sorry ... don't see it.

 

 

The fancloth watcher makes his first on-screen appearance spying on Sammy and Graendel in Chapter 20 in ACoS.  This is 2 days after Dumai's wells, according to Stephen Cooper's timeline.  This is the 14th of Taisham or Swovan Night.  It is also 14 days after the end of the year, the shortest day according to the Randland calendar, and 2 days after High Chasaline.  Sounds like the middle of winter to me....

 

I just don't see any purpose in putting a prophecy about what is not going to happen, in a place where no one would understand it anyway.  I mean, none of the people who have seen to Horn or can use it know who Moridin is, and even Rand who has seen him and has some idea that he is bad doesn't know his name is Moridin.

 

Who says that it has to be pertinent to anyone?  What if it was just RJ slipping us, the reader, a clue?  Why does prophecy have to be useful to the characters in order to be prophecy?  All it takes is a good look at Elaida's foretellings to see that they haven't done her much good.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Who says that it has to be pertinent to anyone?  What if it was just RJ slipping us, the reader, a clue?

 

Because RJ consistently said that the things that people did in the books, they did for a reason in the books.  If they kept a secret, they had a reason, it wasn't just to fool the reader.  If they followed someone, or tried to kill someone, or ... recorded a prophecy ... they did it for a reason.  A reason internal to that world.

 

All it takes is a good look at Elaida's foretellings to see that they haven't done her much good.

 

Ah, but they could have, if she was willing to use her head.  Those Foretellings talk about something that IS happening, not something that isn't.

 

This prophecy wouldn't be useful at all, even if they DID know exactly who Moridin is.

 

And now, a lighthearted play to demonstrate my point:

 

 

 

Scene: Shayol Ghul, the Light is getting their butt kicked solidly, and the boys stop for a conference.

 

Mat: Hey guys, we're in deep trouble.  I think I should blow the Horn!

 

Perrin: I don't know, didn't it have a warning label?

 

Rand: Well, it says something about that guy Moridin.  You know, ex-Ba'alzamon, used to be in all our heads?

 

Mat: (muttering) Yeah, I'm glad its just yours now, fruitcake.

 

Rand: Very funny.  At least I didn't have to get married to get ... (ducks as Min's boot flies over his head)

 

Perrin: (rolls his eyes ... after making sure Faile isn't around) Anywho, what does it say?

 

Rand: It says Moridin can't stop it from working ....

 

Mat: So, um .... this changes my plan ... how?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I must admit, however, that upon further reflection your point about Moridin reappearing in the middle of the calendar winter is completely correct.  I had always interpreted that bit of poetry a little bit differently, but you are absolutely correct that Moridin's first appearance on-screen is just after mid-winter on the calendar, and that would be consistent with his "re-birth" occurring at mid-winter.  There's also a nice bit of symbolism there, since that day is the day with the least light (in the northern half of the world, anyway ...)

 

The case for "Death" meaning "Moridin" in the poetic prophecy from Winter's Heart is far stronger than the case for the Horn's inscription referring to Moridin.  The first sentence suggests that the "birth" of "winter's heart" comes as a result of the weakening of "the seals that hold back night".  Certainly the Dark One's ability to transmigrate Ishamael is one result of the seals weakening.

 

So, I could buy that.  There is alot more to that case than simply an out of place capital letter.

 

I still don't see the Horn thing.  The Winter's Heart prophecy is still talking about something that did happen, not something that didn't or wouldn't.

[cloglord]

LIghthearted play acting aside, and it was funny BTW, I think that it could be an indicator that Moridin/Ishmael/Ba'alazamon would be present at all of the soundings of the horn.  It might be similar to the need for the dragon banner, or any number of other possible pre-requisites for the Horn to be used properly.  I mean does it make any more sense that the Dragon Banner has to be present than for Moridin to be?

 

I'm not saying that I am a firm believer that a capitial "M" stands for Moridin, I'm merely trying to figure out why RJ used a capital M and why the syntax of this OT phrase is different than the syntax rules for others.  I think that there must be a reason for the difference, I'm just trying to figure out what that is.

[zshadez]

I don't think it says anywhere that the Dragon banner has to be there for every sounding. It had to be there for the one we've seen, yes, but that doesn't indicate all the others. At the time the pattern was forcing Rand into declaring himself, that could have been one of the ways it did that and not a normal rule of sounding.

[cloglord]

I don't think it says anywhere that the Dragon banner has to be there for every sounding.

 

Where did I say that?  My point was that it was a prerequisite, once, who knows what other's there might be?

[RobertAlexWillis]

It might be similar to the need for the dragon banner, or any number of other possible pre-requisites for the Horn to be used properly.  I mean does it make any more sense that the Dragon Banner has to be present than for Moridin to be?

 

Well, I had an extensive exmplanation somewhere else about the Dragon Banner at Falme ... it was a necessity for the Pattern's weave at that moment, not a necessity for the use of the Horn.

 

This really is the crux of the matter to me.  Yes, I suppose it is possible that Moridin might be in some way involved in or around the Horn's sounding at the Last Battle.  Certainly he'll be opposed to it in principle if it is in Mat Cauthon's hands.  But the makers of the Horn didn't go around engraving specific requirements of future single uses of the Horn.  They engraved a description that applies to every use, whatever use may have been made of it in the Age before Ishamael was born, and whatever use may be made in future Ages when Moridin is not around.  The sentence describes what the Horn does, all the time, every time.  I just don't see why another explanation is needed.

 

The engraving is a decorative one.  Grammatical rules for capitalization aside (since we don't really have any reliable Old Tongue Basic Grammar Book), superfluous capitals get thrown into decorative art titles all the time.  There just isn't any need for it to mean anything else; it wouldn't be useful information.

[lou]

i thought the use of the dragon banner was in fulfillment of a dragon prophesy, not neccessarily a horn prophesy. the banner, the horn and the dragon in the sky was the prophesy concerning the banner itself (the ancient symbol of AS), proclaiming rand the one true dragon. this really has nothing more to do with the horn.

the only person who is looking for the horn since the sounding is fain, and he has not even mentioned the horn in several books. the forsaken dont seem concerned at all about it, doesnt that seem odd?

[CUBAREY]

You forget that the Do gave Ishy the reincarnated name of Moridin.  Unless you belive that the DO wanted to forefill a prophecy incicating his failure you must assume that Moridin in inscription refers not to the person but death itself.

[cloglord]

You forget that the Do gave Ishy the reincarnated name of Moridin.

 

How could I forget something that we don't know happened?  We don't know how Ishy got the new name of Moridin, we didn't see him get a new name, and Ishy had a habit of giving himself new names.

 

But, if I am wrong, who else has an idea why Moridin is capitalized?  Why doesn't this phrase fit the other OT phrases in the books?