Is Egwene in training to be an adam escape artist?

[cloglord]

Egwene has spent 2 months as Damane. She's spent something like 40 days as Suldame of Moghedian.  She's learned to embrace crippling pain.  Would an adam still hold her?

 

I was re-reading TGH and the though occurred to me, while I wasd reading about egwene's attempts to channel her own collar off, that the types of pain infliction that make an attempt at escape or resist damane training would simply not work on Egwene any longer.  She has spent the last few weeks getting severely beaten several times a day, what's a little nausea while attempting to channel her collar loose?  What torture could a suldame inflict that Egwene would not resist?

 

Suddenly, it seems likely to me that the seanchan attack will find egwene collared next to Elaida, and it will be Egwene's resolve, her prior experience with the adam, (from both sides,) and her stubborness that will effect a victory over the Seanchan.

[akaliel]

It's possible, maybe, to power your way through the crippling pain and numbness and take off your own a'dam.  But I doubt it.  RJ seemed to want to ensure that the device was impossible for the damane to remove herself.  He seemed to go out of his way in fact, adding additional rules as required as the story went on, that prevented the damane from circumventing it.

 

I always figured that if it were possible, if there was a loophole, that the Aes Sedai who created it would have been able to escape her's, and as far as we know, she didn't.  Or if there was a trick with the OP, Moghedian would surely have discovered it I think.

 

I don't know, it might be possible.  I'd sure love to see it, I was always hoping when Egwene was collared that she'd puzzle it out.  Maybe Elayne or Avienda will figure it out, given their affinities with ter'angreal.

 

Personally, I doubt it, the story seemed to be pointing toward the Seanchan voluntarily dropping the custom.

[Lonely Wind]

Great theory I think you're on to something  it would be a great scene.

I also think its possible to do it by hand if you can take the pain, which she can.

[wvlr]

Cloglord,

 

I have had similar thoughts before, that I have posted before.    Some people have not agreed with me but no one has convinced me that it can not happen.

 

My thoughts were about the Aiel tecknique of "embracing the pain" that Egwene seems to be approaching.  With Perin's just handing a lot of Aiel Wise Ones to the Seanchan it and/or the collering of Ewgene just might backfire on them.  And it is not just the "embracing the pain" that might be used.    It is one's self mind control, especially for the Dreamwalkers.

 

When Ewgene hit her Suldam with the water bucket, then she could not use the water bucket any more because it was a "weapon".    She had to convince herself that it was not a weapon.  If you can convince yourself that a weapon (bucket) is not a weapon, then, with enough control, you should be able to convince yourself that the suldam WANTS you to channel the coller off - or something else that would free you or someone with you.   

[dmanmiller34]

That should be esay for her to do as well from her Dream Walker Training. In Telanrhiod you change reality to fit as you see it and it is. She should be able to apply the same focus of mind to the real world and remove her own adam.

[cloglord]

I'm confused. I am not suggesting that Egwene would be able to escape because of mental tricks or her expertise in TAR, although, I would not be upset were it a part of her escape.  In fact I don't think that she can endure the pain well enough to physically remove that Adam.  Simply, Egwene does not describe her attempts at physical removal as pain, but rather as debilatating cramps.  In that instance, I don't think it would matter if she could endure the pain, if she was unable to control her own movements.

 

However, we do know that it is possible to remove an adam using the OP.  Nynaeve did this in TGH by using a "whipcrack" of the OP.  Further, we know from Egwene's POV that it is possible to channel very small amounts of the OP while not linked, although it does cause debilitating nausea in proportion to the amount channeled.  Now, who do we know that has had recent experience deftly weaving very small amounts of the OP?  Right, Egwene.  Who is the only character we have seen that has spent a signifigant amount of time on both sides of an adam?  Right again, Egwene.  Seriously, how hard would it be for Egwene to whipcrack herself right back out of a collar if she's not actively in a link?  Who do we know that has been spending her freetime resisting her captors and undermining them from within, all the while recieving beatings that would have lesser women begging on their knees?  If it works for Elaida, why wouldn't it work for the Seanchan? 

 

I don't know if TAR would enter the equation at all.

[lou]

egwene also knows the "trick" of removing an adam, she may not need to remove her own first, if she is captive with elaida, she may opt to teach elaida the trick, or remove elaida's first (or whoever she may find herself captive with). didnt mat remove adam from the two captive aes sedai? is the power even neccessary?

[cloglord]

Egwene said that her attempt at removing her own adam by hand left her severly cramped up.  I don't think that she would be any more succesful at removing another woman's adam, as Seta and Renna seemed to be having a great deal of difficulty attempting the same thing at the end of TGH.  Of course they did not have the benefit of knowing how to channel....

[lou]

so the power is the key.it would be ironic to have egwene set free the very woman who has held her captive. i think that would be a lesson in humility that elaida needs to learn.

[cloglord]

Or it could make for a telling turning point in the developement from wide eyed novice to hard-decision making Amrylin for Egwene.  It would certainly cement her victory in the white tower struggle if Elaida were left captive in Seanchan hands.  But would Egwene be able to make such a cold blooded decision to unite her beloved tower?

[lou]

i dont believe egwene would leave anyone in the hands of the seanchan that way. she has already proven to be a hard decision maker. she declared war on elaida herself, of course that was to cement her own power as amrylin, but still....

i think to make the tower whole, she will need elaida to be put aside and tried, this cannot happen if elaida is left to the seanchan.

[Luckers]

Personally, i don't believe the person wearing the collar could channel significantly enough to escape--functioning from the fact that i suspect the sensation grows much worse than what Egwene experienced, and more than probably fast enough to the stage as to disrupt the ability to channel (which we know pain can do).

 

Admittedly in favour of the idea, for the past one thousand years most damane have had no formal training, and therefore are in no position to reason out weaves to open the a'dam, yet still, the consolodiation ended only two hundered years ago... along the way there must have been fully trained channelers collared... many of them. And if Nynaeve, with barely four months training under her belt could figure the method out, then surely someone in the generations during the conquest must have managed it.

[cloglord]

Personally, i don't believe the person wearing the collar could channel significantly enough to escape--functioning from the fact that i suspect the sensation grows much worse than what Egwene experienced, and more than probably fast enough to the stage as to disrupt the ability to channel (which we know pain can do).

 

Possibly, but we also know that Egwene can endure much greater levels of pain than most, excluding Aiel who have apparently been embracing pain for their whole lives.  Further, as you have pointed out elsewhere, there are examples of people who continue to channel through extreme pain.  In fact the void achieved while channeling seemed to assist in this.

 

yet still, the consolodiation ended only two hundered years ago... along the way there must have been fully trained channelers collared... many of them. And if Nynaeve, with barely four months training under her belt could figure the method out, then surely someone in the generations during the conquest must have managed it.

 

Yes there might have been, but we know nothing about the circumstances of the consolidation.  It could be that the Seanchan were much more careful about leaving newly collared Damane alone at that time. As for Nynaeve figuring it out after 4 months of training, she also figured out how to heal stilling after less than a year of actual training.  Maybe opening an adam with the OP is a trick that should be added to the list, like traveling, and inversion.  Taking it one step further, even if someone over the generations learned the trick, that someone was most likely killed or recaptured, just because we haven't heard of anyone doing it doesn't mean that it is impossible.  It might just be that it has happened so rarely that isn't mentioned.

 

The point is, we don't know enough about the past history of collaring or the specifics of Suldame/damane connections to know if it has been done before or how easily it would be done.  All we know is that it is possible, as per nyn's example, and that Egwene has the best chance to pull it off because of her specific experieinces.

[VampireGoat]

Possibly, but we also know that Egwene can endure much greater levels of pain than most, excluding Aiel who have apparently been embracing pain for their whole lives.

 

how much pain egwene takes doesnt matter. While others may have demonstrated channeling under pain, Egwene hasn't. Embracing pain, taking it and not snapping under the pressure is one thing. The idea of embracing pain is really a method to resist torture as far as I know. Egwene is experienced in taking lots of pain but not acting through it. Unfortunately what you are describing is more a total ignoring of pain, like its not there. Something Egwene doesn't do.

 

That and I think the idea is that a'dams just dont come off without help from a 3rd party.

 

That said I swear I remeber mat showing a windfinder how to remove a collar herself so she could free herself at the time of 'the great escape' mat plans when he escapes the seanchan. More then likely he just left it unlocked and she took it off later

 

 

[The Dragon Reborn]

The way I think about it: Moghedien was leashed and she couldn't escape. She was able to escape from Nynaeve's shield however, for which you need to able to endure pain to able to do...

Until I see someone escape from the thing I reckon you ain't able to no matter how much pain you can endure. I seem to remember Egwene's muscle cramping horrible the second she even considered taking it off physically. If you put more effort into it I reckon your muscles would simply cramp you into a ball to stop you.

[cloglord]

how much pain egwene takes doesnt matter. While others may have demonstrated channeling under pain, Egwene hasn't. Embracing pain, taking it and not snapping under the pressure is one thing. The idea of embracing pain is really a method to resist torture as far as I know. Egwene is experienced in taking lots of pain but not acting through it. Unfortunately what you are describing is more a total ignoring of pain, like its not there. Something Egwene doesn't do.

 

You are correct that she is not been terribly successful at acting through it, but she has become much better.  If you recall she was weeping hysterically during her first beating, but by the end she is contemplating singing, or at least humming while under the strap.  The point being she is getting better, and she is doing so very quickly.

 

That said I swear I remeber mat showing a windfinder how to remove a collar herself so she could free herself at the time of 'the great escape' mat plans when he escapes the seanchan. More then likely he just left it unlocked and she took it off later

 

Yes Mat showed that windfinder how it was done, after he removed the collar from her. She did not have to remove her own collar.

 

The way I think about it: Moghedien was leashed and she couldn't escape. She was able to escape from Nynaeve's shield however, for which you need to able to endure pain to able to do...

 

There is one very important difference between these two instances.  Egwene was left alone for periods of time, Moghedian was usually linked with one of the girls.  Secondly, Moghedian was a giant coward, fear of discovery at an escape attempt could explain her unwillingness to try.

 

I seem to remember Egwene's muscle cramping horrible the second she even considered taking it off physically. If you put more effort into it I reckon your muscles would simply cramp you into a ball to stop you.

 

Which is why i discarded the idea of being able to physically removing the adam.  She would only be able to do it, were she able to channel dextrously enough, while enduring the pain of channeling while collared, to channel the collar off of herself.

 

[The Lost One]

I like this idea and I hope we see it happen.  However, I have one question?

 

I thought they had to be able to see the weaves in order to channel?  I don't think she would be able to see where to channel the flow on the collar - I am assuming she would channel at the place it unsnaps or whatever? 

[cloglord]

I don't think that you alway shave to be able to see the thing in order to channel.  In that case, healing wouldn't work except for superficial wounds.  Similarly delving something allows a person to look inside of something.  I think that if Egwene were to us the OP to delve the collar then I would think that she would be able to channel the collar open like Nynaeve did in TGH.