Some Questions from a reread of Lord of chaos

[oosquaiaddict]

Ive been rerreading LOC and had a few questions came up.

 

1. Why does Rand keep inspecting the Saladean horses? I assume its part of Rands Sammael plan, but I dont get how doing this helps in that.

 

2. In Shadar Logoth Elder Haman says Rand can provide better protection than him, this seemed to have some meaning, and Rand was curious but dismissed it. Any ideas whats meant here? Is it just that Rand can channel?

 

3. Whats Demandred doing in Camelyn? He makes a gateway from the Lion throne Room after watching Elayne there.

 

4. What Slayer doing in Tar Valon? At least the TAR version? Egwene sees him I think right after the Aes Sedai are pulled into the nightmare with Trollocs. Is the nightmare Shreriam and co. get caught in his creation?

 

5. The Aiel men who channel go to fight the Dark One in the blight and are never seen again. Considering how badly outnumbered the Shadow are could these guys be forcibly turned and made dreadlords? I dont see why not.

 

6. Who attacked Demira? Verin takes advantage of the situation, but I dont think she has the attack carried out.

 

7. What happens between Nandera and Sulin on the way to Dumai Wells. Sulin beats Nandera, but now defers to her. I asked this before and got an answer about Shame Culture. I still dont really get it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

1. He wants Sammael (and everyone else) to think that he is focusing on the army in normal, physical terms, so that Sammael (and everyone else) won't anticipate his actual tactics using gateways.

 

  It didn't really work ... Sammael seemed ready, personally, when Rand came for him.

 

2. Yes, its pretty much that Rand can channel.

 

3. Um ... spying?  Caemlyn is Rand's territory at the time, and he has plenty of reason to spy on Rand.  Especially if, as I think, he was responsible for placing Taim with Rand (which had occurred only a very few chapters earlier ... perhaps he had just met Taim there to get a report).

 

4. She didn't see him in Tar Valon.  In the chapter you referenced, Egwene is not actually anywhere in Tel'aran'rhiod, she is in the "bubble space" where she finds peoples dreams, and reminiscing about who and what she has seen in various places in T'A'R.  She saw what she thought might be Lan (which you correctly identified as Slayer in his Isam form) somewhere in T'A'R.  We don't know exactly where.

 

  The nightmare that Sheriam and co. are pulled into is their own.

 

5. There are several theories that include that very possibility.  I personally think the Aiel men would be hard to capture at all ... they would embrace death first ... but certainly any who were captured could be turned.

 

6. Aiel.  Duh  ....

 

  Just kidding.  Here's a discussion on the subject.  Personally, I'm not sure.  http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/1_dark/1.4_whats-up-dark/1.4.07_demira.html

 

7. Since I tried to answer that before, and didn't succeed, I guess I'm not really the best person to do this one.

[Lune]

I've got one of my own too. Did they ever figure out who was spying on Nynaeve and Theodrin from the second floor window in Salidar? Personally I think it's Lelaine. By virtue of the fact that she always seems to know a bit more than she should, ie, figuring out about Faolain being a spy, etc.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Frankly, the list of possible suspects is long, and the evidence very scarce.  It could be anyone wanting to either spy on Nynaeve, or to spy on the same people Nynaeve was spying on (the Salidar Council of Six).  Alot of people potentially fall in that range.

 

Certainly Lelaine is on that list, although just how she would be spying on the Council from where she was is unknown ... certainly an eavesdropping weave would have been noticed.  And I'm not sure why she would be following Nynaeve around ... perhaps it was just a happenstance sighting.  Of course, Romanda would be just as likely ... or any number of people in the Hall, including Delana, who would certainly be interested in knowing how the Six were responding to Elaida's offer.

 

Its possible that Mesaana in disguise was paying a visit ... she would likely know something of Nynaeve's signifigance, and she would probably want to know what the Council was doing about Tarna's offer from Elaida.  But then, I'm assuming Mesaana had the brains to keep tabs on Salidar ... but not enough brains to see how things would actually go ... so I'm definitely not laying money on that one.

[Majsju]

My gut feeling said Tarna, she would have a reason to skulk Nynaeve since she tries to convince her and Elayne to return to the Tower, and might concider Nynaeve the easier to sway.

 

 

[Lune]

But Tarna just left the building :S I'm utterly confused actually where this 'second floor' is, I thought it meant the Little Tower.

[Majsju]

After Tarna leaves, Nynaeve sticks around for a while eavesdroping. When caught in the act by Theodrin, they walk together for some short time before start talking. There is enough time for Tarna to enter another building, and start looking around.

[Sab]

This is my only disagreement with Robert's reply: (or I have misunderstood what you meant?)

 

Um ... spying?  Caemlyn is Rand's territory at the time, and he has plenty of reason to spy on Rand.  Especially if, as I think, he was responsible for placing Taim with Rand (which had occurred only a very few chapters earlier ... perhaps he had just met Taim there to get a report).

 

Had Taim been a darkfriend as soon as he went to Rand, there is no way he would of given Rand the seal to the Dark Ones Prison.  Think most likely he went to Rand for protection like he said and just couldn't stand being in Rand's shadow, after all he feels he is the one doing all the work and why should Rand be getting the glory. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Had Taim been a darkfriend as soon as he went to Rand, there is no way he would of given Rand the seal to the Dark Ones Prison.  Think most likely he went to Rand for protection like he said and just couldn't stand being in Rand's shadow, after all he feels he is the one doing all the work and why should Rand be getting the glory.

 

While that is a good point, it may exactly the point Taim wanted to make to Rand.  The Seals are breaking on their own ... eventually the Dark One will get out no matter who holds them.  So, its not a huge sacrifice for the Shadow to give one up.

 

But doing so made it much more likely that Rand would trust and accept him.  Because, Rand would think to himself, "If Taim was a darkfriend when he came to me, there is no way he would have given me a Seal to the Dark Ones Prison."

[Majsju]

The DOs plans constantly change. Take Rand as the prime example, he lives, he dies, it doesn't matter, he lives again etc.

 

We don't see the seals become a great issue until KOD, so it is far from impossible the plans about them were quite different in LOC. Like, "give one to Rand and gain his trust."

[mothersmilkinacup]

1. He wants Sammael (and everyone else) to think that he is focusing on the army in normal, physical terms, so that Sammael (and everyone else) won't anticipate his actual tactics using gateways.

 

  It didn't really work ... Sammael seemed ready, personally, when Rand came for him.

 

RAW - I think that it did work and then Mat blew it all...

 

As you probably recall Rand wanted either Mat or Perrin to be with the army gathering to attack Illian - to help sell his subterfuge.  He initially had Mat traveling with the Band to meet up with the army and lead it as part of the ruse.  Then he changed his mind and wanted Mat to go to Salidar and bring Elayne to Andor.  That led to Mat going with Nyneave and Elayne to Ebou Dar.

 

In Chapter 14 of ACOS (White Plumes) he followed the dark friend that tried to previously kill him and Rand in TEOTW from the Silver Circuit to a palace where she met with Carridin.  Carradin saw Mat in the street and told Sammael.

 

This was Sammael’s response (pg 287/8 HC):

 

‘ “Here?” Oddly, for a moment Sammael seemed taken aback.  He murmured something under his breath, and the blood drained from Carridin’s face at one caught word.

 

“Great Lord, you know I would never betray-“

 

“You?  Fool!  You haven’t the stomach.  Are you certain it was Cauthon you saw?” ‘

 

This tells me that Sammael thought that Mat was with the army readying to attack Illian and he likely thought this would be the main attack; after Mat appeared in Ebou Dar he realized that he had been bamboozled and made plans accordingly, which is why he was ready for Rand.

 

I know it’s a fine point, but I just realized this during my last re-read and got excited, so now I have an opportunity to share…

 

[lou]

i had thought the inspection of the troops was for more practical reasons: give the men a rallying point which is rand. it was bashere's idea. rand fails in this and failed to do so at the black tower, and you know how that ended up.

[Sab]

Good point, but what reason would Rand of had to suspect Taim as a darkfriend in the first place?  I just can't see the Forsaekn letting on of the seals out of their possession, I can see them trying to shatter it as soon as they knew where it was.  I think Taim truely had hoped Rand would accept his partnership idea and that the seal would finalize the deal.  Most likely Osan'gar approached him and converted him, then in his disguise hid in the black tower.  If you look back with the other forsaken and dealing with the people in the white tower, Seancha, etc.. they always are hiding there in a disguise and never approach the person except in a disguise covering their appearence.

[lou]

rand had no reason to suspect taim of anything. it was instinct and the rabid voice in his head that said taim was not to be trusted.

[RobertAlexWillis]

This tells me that Sammael thought that Mat was with the army readying to attack Illian and he likely thought this would be the main attack; after Mat appeared in Ebou Dar he realized that he had been bamboozled and made plans accordingly, which is why he was ready for Rand.

 

I know it’s a fine point, but I just realized this during my last re-read and got excited, so now I have an opportunity to share…

 

That is entirely possible.  Rand did indeed want either Mat or Perrin in charge of that army so that Sammael would suspect it as being the main threat.

 

Whatever the reason, it ended up not working terribly well.

 

Good point, but what reason would Rand of had to suspect Taim as a darkfriend in the first place?

 

For all the reasons many readers (including myself) suspect him of having been trained by the Forsaken.  Channeling for over a decade without going mad, knowing a realatively great variety of weaves, etc.  Those questions never went through Rand's mind, because Taim did something right at the start that Rand thought that no Darkriend would ever do.  He suspects Taim, in general terms, of being out for himself, but he doesn't ever suspect him of being a Darkfriend.  Which is how he can rationalize letting Taim have so much freedom at the Black Tower, even though Taim gives so many indications of being disloyal.

[cloglord]

1. Why does Rand keep inspecting the Saladean horses? I assume its part of Rands Sammael plan, but I dont get how doing this helps in that.

 

Do you remember that Rand placed some stones on the ground before those exersizes?  I always took it to mean that the Saldeans were practicing how fast they could move through a gateway.  Since this was a part of the attack on Illian, I still think that's what they were doing.

 

6. Who attacked Demira? Verin takes advantage of the situation, but I dont think she has the attack carried out.

 

Luckers has a pretty good theory on why he thinks that Taim is behind the attack on Demira.  I don't remember all the pertinent points though.

[Luckers]

Quote

1. Why does Rand keep inspecting the Saladean horses? I assume its part of Rands Sammael plan, but I dont get how doing this helps in that.

 

Do you remember that Rand placed some stones on the ground before those exersizes?  I always took it to mean that the Saldeans were practicing how fast they could move through a gateway.  Since this was a part of the attack on Illian, I still think that's what they were doing.

 

I thought so too Cloglord.

 

4. She didn't see him in Tar Valon.  In the chapter you referenced, Egwene is not actually anywhere in Tel'aran'rhiod, she is in the "bubble space" where she finds peoples dreams, and reminiscing about who and what she has seen in various places in T'A'R.  She saw what she thought might be Lan (which you correctly identified as Slayer in his Isam form) somewhere in T'A'R.  We don't know exactly where.

 

  The nightmare that Sheriam and co. are pulled into is their own.

 

I dunno... we are warned countless times about transient dreamers leaving nightmares in TAR that can become very very dangerous. I personally doubt that it was the product of any active dreamers--though certainly once the Aes Sedai accepted it as reality and started squeeling it became stronger and focused on them.

 

 

 

6. Who attacked Demira? Verin takes advantage of the situation, but I dont think she has the attack carried out.

 

My belief is Taim. Here's my reasoning quoted from another thread, (in response to the suggestion that the attackers actually were Aiel, just so you understand the context.

 

It seems unlikely they were actually Aiel. They were short, had dark eyes, referred to Aes Sedai as witches and Rand as the Dragon reborn. Even darkfriend Aiel trying to do that wouldn't have acted in such a manner.

 

My guess is that they were Asha'man sent by Taim to elevate the conflict between Rand and the Aes Sedai.

 

Concider.

 

Local.

 

The culprit had to be someone in position near Caemlyn to have organised a large scale opperation including people to follow Demira, warn her warder, clear the alley and so forth--even with the possibility of travelling, the whole scenario screams of people familiar with the landscape--More over this action needed to be organised very quickly.

 

Manpower

 

Whoever was behind it needed men who have no issue with knowingly attacking an Aes Sedai, and more importantly with attacking her openly and in a way that allowed them to tell her a message before she passed out. Then they needed access to men who knew their way around weapons, and specifically how to wound people without killing them. And, frankly, they needed men who can channel, but more on that in a second.

 

Motive and Method.

 

Their motive seems to have been forcing a schism between Rand and the Salidar embassy, however the speed at which it occured precludes the Tower. That leaves the Forsaken and Taim, at least to my mind.

 

Now whilst there is no evidence against the Forsaken, this does not seem to me to match any of their M.O.s. Meanwhile Taim has used such blunt tactics several times... including the Gray Man he killed in order to 'save' Rand, the attack on Rand in PoD by Kisman and the others, and finally though this is unsubstantiated, the attack on the manor in KoD.

 

Additionally he has access to men trained in weapons (Rand ensured that), the infrastructure to enact such a plan, men who have little reason to fear making such an attack on an Aes Sedai.

 

Motive, method and methodology all match him, but there is more, though it is INCREDIBLY circumstantial. Specifically two things struck me as i read that scene that i think points to Taim.

 

Firstly.

 

Turning away from the gate, [Demira's] eyes chanced to meet those of a tall, lean-faced fellow in a carter's vest who was gazing at her much too admiringly. When their eyes met, he winked!

 

She was not going to put with that all the way back to the inn....

 

...She slipped into the narrow shaded gap between a cutler's shop and a tavern.

 

 

Why is this curious? The alley she slipped into was the alley the trapped was layed in. Why would the trap have been layed in an alley she had no reason to enter? Indeed, she would not have entered except for that chance in encounter, yet her attackers were fully confident that she would. Confident to the point that they had someone waiting to tell the other Aes Sedai she had without any sort of way of substantiating that she had, and had she not such a warning would have made the Aes Sedai more alert, forbidding such a plan from being enacted in the future.

 

They KNEW she would take that alley, despite having no possible reason to think so. Why?

 

Because they did have a reason to think so. The meeting of that mans eye, the wink, it all sounds similar to the basic self-discovered methods of compulsion heard time and again amongst wilders. What we have is an idiosyncratic gesture that resulted in someone doing something they weren't going to do prior to that, something that coincidently another person desperately needed them to do.

 

And who commands male channelers?

 

The second thing of interest is this.

 

Frantically [Demira] reached for saidar, but something else pierced her side, and she was down in the dust. That remembered face was thrust into hers, black eyes mocking, growling something she ignored while she tried to reach saidar, tried to... Darkness closed in.

 

 

Now yes, we have seen injured channelers fail to reach the Source--but then again, we've seen some channel from the very edge of death, or amidst debilitating pain. So the question i ask is, could it have been a shield? After all what type of person would attack an Aes Sedai in a culture that makes out that Aes Sedai could essentially channel from the grave to kill you and everyone you love if you so much as glanced at them wrongly...

 

And beyond that, they intentionally wounded her so that she would remain aware so they could deliver their message. Not even the whitecloaks are that stupid, and yet these men do their deed with not only confidence, but contempt.

 

Frankly the combination make it seem more than certain that it is Taim. He has the motive, the means, the temprement....

 

Hope that helped.

[DonDew]

  On question#1(I still can't do the quote thing)I agree that it was training for Illian. But I also think that something is under that well described white stone, either the Choeden Kal or the Seals that Rand has.(whatever Dobraine's and Dumira(?) Basere's attackers were after)

[reyler]

On that theory about Demira's attack, I like all of it except the part where they shield her. Granted that the assailants' complete failure to bear any racial characteristics of Aiel should have at least partially spoiled the facade, channeling at her in any recognisable way (and I do think she would have recognised a shielding) would completely blow the whole thing. Cadin'sor or not, men channeling, especially in the Caemlyn area, by that point would immediately bring to mind the Asha'man. Plus, after Rand's warning to Taim that the sensation of anyone other than himself channeling saidin in Caemlyn would mean Taim's head, I don't think he'd risk it quite that far.

 

On the whole, though, a likely theory. The only other person who would make sense would be Fain and whatever of his mindwiped Whitecloak flunkies he had left at that point. The "witches" comment does sort of lend credence to that one, though.

[Luckers]

There would be no noteable display of channeling--the first weave, compulsion, and the second weave of the shield would not show itself to witnesses, and as for Demira herself, the stab wound itself combined with the fact that she would not sense the shield other than in the inability to reach the source explain for a lack of effect.

 

As for Rand sensing the shield, the attack took place outside the New City, and it is unlikely that Rand would have been able to sense the weave (even close, men sense very little when other men channeling). Beyond that, it would be easy to invert the shield beforehand to prevent the sensation of active.

 

On the whole, though, a likely theory. The only other person who would make sense would be Fain and whatever of his mindwiped Whitecloak flunkies he had left at that point. The "witches" comment does sort of lend credence to that one, though.

 

Others than whitecloaks use the phrase 'witches', so i have no problem seeing it being used by Taim's rabid followers, especially given their arrogance and their feel;ings about Aes Sedai.

 

Beyond that, though, Fain does not have the power of compulsion in the manner witnessed, and the leading attacker 'the one with the leering eyes' (the compeller) does not match descriptions of Fain. Also, it doesn't really fit his MO. When Kisman and the other two come between him and Rand he simply kills them. He doesn't want confrontation between Rand and another, and whoever attacked Demira did.

[oosquaiaddict]

Thanks for all the answers. Most of it got cleared up nicely.. I definitely agree with Taim being the one to put the hit on Demira. That makes a lot of sense.

1. Why does Rand keep inspecting the Saladean horses? I assume its part of Rands Sammael plan, but I dont get how doing this helps in that.

 

I should have mentioned the white stones as well. While I agree that they are practicing for the attack on Illian, what I dont get is why Bashere is insistent that Rand attend these rides/processions/drills/parades? I dont see what it adds to Rands plan. If anything wouldnt he want to keep quiet the fact that hes spending time with the Saldeans when he could have just as easily spent time with any of the other various military groups under his control?

 

RAW: About the Nandera/Sulin thing I got what you were saying about how it relates to shame, its just that I coulndt understand why Sulin felt the shame if she has fulfilled her Toh(for talking to the Gaishain as Far Dareis Mai). Why is Nandera not behaving as if it never happened? And after the fight, how on earth is Sulin the one to experience shame? I live in India, and see the idea of societal shame quite a bit, but I just cant get the dynamics of whats happening here.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

About the Nandera/Sulin thing I got what you were saying about how it relates to shame, its just that I coulndt understand why Sulin felt the shame if she has fulfilled her Toh(for talking to the Gaishain as Far Dareis Mai). Why is Nandera not behaving as if it never happened? And after the fight, how on earth is Sulin the one to experience shame? I live in India, and see the idea of societal shame quite a bit, but I just cant get the dynamics of whats happening here.

 

As I understand it, Sulin's choice to fulfill her toh by becoming a servant was viewed by Nandera as childishly over-proud, in its nature and perhaps in its length.  There is also the fact that Sulin failed in her duty to protect Rand al'Thor ... at least in part because she chose to meet one toh in a way that blocked her other toh (as a servant, she could not influence or protect Rand like she could as a Maiden).  That is why when the time came to lead the Maidens after Rand, Nandera did not relinquish leadership ... it was pointing out to Sulin that such leadership and responsibility isn't something that could be put aside and then resumed without consequence. 

 

Sulin kept trying to assert her claim, but Nandera would not acquiesce.  While Nandera did not point Sulin's pride out openly (this is rude, and would have shamed Nandera) she kept leadership of the Maidens, and this was shaming to Sulin.  However, the only way Sulin could regain her position was by challenging Nandera to physical combat ... which in the situation was just another evidence of childish pride (since that was neither the time nor the place for such a conflict, nor, ultimately, the right method to address the shame of loss of leadership).  Thus, even though she won the fight, her choice to fight at all only demonstrated that Nandera was correct (that Sulin was overly proud), and therefore shamed Sulin even more.

 

While the Aiel are proud individually, there is great societal pressure (enforced through ji-e-toh) to not be overly proud, or overly boastful.  Jordan gave us a hint about this in LoC ch 28 when Sulin first appears in her servant's dress.  Nandera comments on the extreme nature of Sulin's choice, and Jalani counters with an even more extreme example.  Nandera then says, "You boast like a Shaido, girl."  The next sentence reads: "Had Jalani been older, the three calculated insults might have caused trouble, but instead she squeezed her eyes shut to hide the sight of those who had seen her shamed."

 

It is indicative that there were three insults in Nandera's statement.  One, comparing Jalani to an enemy, the Shaido.  Two, calling her "girl".  But the third, which was, of course, actually the first, and the most important in this context, was that she was boasting.  This is revealing because its precisely the reason that Nandera disapproves of Sulin's choice to meet her toh (thus sparking the conversation in which this clue is given), and it is the center of their later conflict.

 

Perhaps I am completely wrong.  But thats how I understand it.