Mazrim Taim...it's good to be bad *spoiler*

[cloglord]

To your definition cloglord. Myself, I was only speaking in terms of effects. Ishamael continues to be able to channel effectively, therefore I stated that he continues to channel normally, and what do you know... he does.

 

But that is not the case.  In the afore mentioned case of the prolouge to TEotW, Ishy specifically states that he has different capabilities with the TP than he does with the OP.  He simply can't do all of the same things interchangeably, he couldn't heal LTT with the OP, and I would suspect that he would not be able to facilitate the growth of living things with the TP.  I do not disagree that he was/is a force to be reckoned with, but the distinction between TP and OP is not insignifigant.  We are discussing to what extent Ishy was able to tutor someone in the use of the OP, and we simply don't know if he was able to channel the OP at all.

 

Now are you interested in what I actually think, or what you need me to be thinking in order that you not look like a complete twat? If so tell me.

 

Of course I am interested in what you think, I don't think that you are intested in the point that I am trying to make, in fact, unless I am misinterpreting you again when you said....

 

it may be important to you, it wasn't to me, and arguing that it was is silly

 

So what makes your point more important and less silly than mine?  And there really isn't any need for name calling, disagreeing with you doesn't make me look like any part of the female anatomy, and you implying that it does only reflects poorly on you.

 

Not in the way your trying to twist it to mean in your ongoing desperation to insist that i was arguing a point opposite yours.

 

I am not desperate to argue a point opposite yours, in fact I am not on the oppsoite side of this argument from you.  You made statements about the nature of Ishy's manifestations and his effective channeling ability that I am not certain are true, I tried to point out to you ways that it might not be true, and you seem to think that I'm picking a fight. 

 

You mean like, maybe, clarifying it all in the following post when you dramatically misread it... yes, I should have done that... oh wait.

 

Yes you did clarify it, and I responded....to your clarification.  You cited his physical manifestation and his ability to channel normally as reasons in support for the idea that he could have been Taim's teacher.  Later, you clarified this position by saying ....

 

Cloglord, i fear you've misunderstood me. I was not claiming that Ishamael simply wandered around like a normal human being. My comment, a direct response to the claim that Ishamael could not manifest physically, was that we know that he could--which we do between incidences in the prologue of tEotW, the fact that he manifested physically as Moerad with Hawkwing, the fact that he managed to contrain and force Jarna Milari into a ter'angreal and activate it, and so forth.

 

Through this we do know that in varying stages of his imprisonment Ishamael WAS able to manifest physically and channel normally. We even witness it. I never suggested there weren't varying levels of restrictions, merely that at the time of Taim's training we know that Ishamael was physical active, and able to channel

 

To which I replied.  At no point, after your clarification, did I misunderstand you, again, simply becasue I disagree does not make me stupid.  I am quite capable of reading, I read your response, and I responded in kind.  I disagree that Ishy's constriction of Jarna was nessicarily the produce of physical force or the OP, and I do not agree that he was certainly able to channel the OP in a manner that would allow him to be an effective tutor to Taim.

 

Let me be clear, I agree with you.  It is likely that Ishy could interact physically and that he could channel the OP.  The difference is that I am not sure of it, and IMO you should not be either, for the reasons that I gave.  By not adressing the possibility that Ishy was constrained at the time of Taim's tutoring, you make your argument weaker.  Simply claiming it is true does not make it so, you have to prove it, or at least make a convincing argument.

 

Edited for Typos

[timbucs2]

Taim is pretty much all the male forsaken's cabana boy, but now he appears to be getting delusions of granduer, which only feeds into the chaos thing. I think there will soon be a showdown between him and Logain which would be sweet.

[hurryupnwait]

I think I might have a piece of information to solve this ongoing and childish argument.  That is of course if we agree that Ishy was still partially bound before the culminating events at the end of EoTW.

 

My timing might be off on this, but I do believe that Ishy intended to teach Rand to use his gift.  If he could not touch the OP how could he teach him such a thing?

 

To head off the Taim could teach him argument do we really think he could be trusted with that job?  Oh hey Mazrim you used to be the top dog Dreadlord, but we want you to train someone we intend  to put over you.

 

 

As far as the whole we don't know if he could physically manifest/touch things.  To think not is just moronic.  Ishy advised Hawking for nearly half a century.  He also advised the stongest early contenders during the 100 years war.  Does anyone honestly believe that he accomplished all that without touching someone.  I am sure at affairs of state he would be expected to shake hands when meeting dignitaries (sp), or maybe even dance at various events.  You can spout this we don't know for sure crap, but when it comes down to it what do we really know for sure?  Some things we just take on faith, and trust because we have to.  The sun will come up, our cars won't blow up on the way to work, we won't be assaulted and murdered while we're out jogging, etc.

 

And yes Taim is going to be very important to the conclusion of this series.

It can be argued that Ishy intended to maybe teach him after he was freed from the Bore, but if could not channel Saidin bound how would he know for sure that he ever would.  I think the ability to channel the OP and the TP are linked.  If you can't touch the OP you can't touch the TP, you just don't have whatever is requisite to do so.

 

 

[cloglord]

I think I might have a piece of information to solve this ongoing and childish argument.

 

 

Well since you decided to weigh in and pass judgement, I might be tempted to point out that this argument was done almost 2 months ago.  That would seem to indicate that at the very least it was not ongoing, but that would be childish, so I won't. ::)

 

That is of course if we agree that Ishy was still partially bound before the culminating events at the end of EoTW.

 

We don't agree, and you'll have to convince me.

 

My timing might be off on this, but I do believe that Ishy intended to teach Rand to use his gift.  If he could not tought the OP how could he teach him such a thing.

 

Yes, he intended to teach Rand how to use his gift, after he was freed from his limited imprisonment.  Your timing is indeed off, since we were discussing Ishy's ability to teach the OP before being freed from his limited imprisonment.

 

To head of the Taim could teach him argument do we really think he could be trusted with that job?  Oh hey Mazrim you used to be the top dog Dreadlord, but we want you to train someone we intend  to put over you.

 

Umm, isn't that exactly what did happen?

 

As far as the whole we don't know if he could physically manifest/touch things.  To think not is just moronic.

 

Do you mean the moronic way that Graendal has avoided being touched for most of the past 2 years while dealing with the entire leadership of Arad Doman?  Or were you refering to a different type of idiocy?

 

It can be argued that Ishy intended to maybe teach him after he was freed from the Bore, but if could not channel Saidin bound how would he know for sure that he ever would.

 

You are right, how could he be certain?  Oh, I'll let you answer yourself from 3 sentences prior.

 

SOme things we just take on faith, and trust because we have to.

 

If we disagree, fine, but you better make sure your ducks are in a row before you start calling my points crap, childish, or moronic.

 

[hurryupnwait]

I do apologize if I offended by weighing in with my two cents on the before mentioned argument.  It was not my intention to really pick sides or insult anyone.  This posting had degenerated to insults back and forth.  I apologize for the moronic statement sometimes the incessant chants of "prove it," annoy me.  If my own points need cleaning up then let me do so.

 

It is reasonable to suppose that Ishy was still at least partially bound until we see Aginor, and his silent friend at the eye of the world.  Prior to that none of the Seals were broken.  Or at least none had been discovered broken.  According to the prove it mentality we cannot assume otherwise until presented with evidence.  We also know Ishy intended to teach the Dragon whoever he turned out to be.  He does not make the offer of teaching until after the EoTW because he did not know who to make it to.  I find it very difficult to believe he came up with that idea on the fly. He had 3000+ years to plan his subversion of the Dragon.  So why would he decide to make the offer of teaching if he did not know if he could come through on it.

 

I suppose it could be argued that he intended to begin that process after he was freed.  However, the seals were made of heartstone, Ishy would have no way of knowing when, where, how, or what the effects of the breaking of the seals would be or even if they would break.  Being from the previous Age he would know better than most the indestructible nature of heartstone.  He believes he will be freed, but I doubt he knows how.

 

Graendel uses a very high level of compulsion on everyone around her.  Ishy is much more subtle than that he likes pulling peoples strings without it looking like there even are strings.  Besides that Grandel's palace is an out of the way place where she issues her commands by messenger.  Do you honestly believe Hawkwing's palace led such an isolated existence?  The level of compulsion required to pull of such a feat would be enormous.  Without an angreal or sa'angreal to help I believe it would be impossible, but that of course leads us back to the can he touch the OP?  I doubt there are any power amplifying objects designed for the TP.

 

Now then moving on Taim.  He has not been put into a position to teach Rand, he has been placed into a situation perfect for him to build an army of new Dreadlords.  He is in position to watch and undermine the Dragon Reborn.  He does not consider himself subservient to anyone.  He is in a seat of power and authority.  He is not be asked to train a farmboy the Dark One intends to exalt above him.

 

I think that covers what I intended to say.  Sometimes my fingers typing cannot keep up with the thoughts racing through my head.  Too often after posting I read over and find much of what I had in mind was not properly communicated on paper, or electronic paper in this instance.

[cloglord]

I do apologize if I offended by weighing in with my two cents on the before mentioned argument.

 

None nessecary, all topics are of course open for discussion, I was irritated, and decided to take issue with the idea that this particular discussion was "on going."  I am usually suprised and pleased to see old topics resurface from the depths, and in my annoyance, did not convey that.

 

I apologize for the moronic statement

Apology accepted.

 

It is reasonable to suppose that Ishy was still at least partially bound until we see Aginor, and his silent friend at the eye of the world.  ...

 

It cetainly is.  However, that says nothing about his ability, inability, or possible limitations while bound.  It is possible that he is completely unhindered in his channeling of the OP, is limited in his channelling, or is  completely unable to channel the OP. "we cannot assume otherwise until presented with evidence."

 

I find it very difficult to believe he came up with that idea on the fly. He had 3000+ years to plan his subversion of the Dragon.  So why would he decide to make the offer of teaching if he did not know if he could come through on it.

 

Several things come to mind.  Option 1: He could channel the OP normally and fully knew that he could follow through.  Option 2:  He was limited in his abilities, yet knew that he could teach in at least a limited way. Perhaps he had even been becoming less limited over the course of the past 3,000 years, and knowing this predicted that he would eventually be able to fully teach him.  Option 3:  He was completely unable to channel the OP, but had deduced that the time of TG, when the DO(and presumably his forsaken,) would become unbound was near.  Making his offer true, but dependant on the timeframe for the failure of the seals.  Option 4:  He knew of a means to train/teach that we the reader are not privy to, presumably the same means by which the male dreadlords of the trolloc wars were trained.  Option 5:  He is unable to channel the OP, and he lied, never intending to teach anyone anything.  He is a lying liar who lies after all.

 

I suppose it could be argued that he intended to begin that process after he was freed.  However, the seals were made of heartstone, Ishy would have no way of knowing when, where, how, or what the effects of the breaking of the seals would be or even if they would break.  Being from the previous Age he would know better than most the indestructible nature of heartstone.  He believes he will be freed, but I doubt he knows how.

 

Again I can think of several ways that he could know where, when, or how.  Simply he has had the past 3,000 years to study the entirety of the collected foretellings about the rebirth of the dragon and the coming of TG. Or it could be that being the captive of a failing prison, he was able to experience the weakening firsthand, and judge its progression for himself.  Maybe being partially bound, allowed him some sort of communication with the DO himself, and his boss told him how close things were getting.  Simply, "we cannot assume otherwise until presented with evidence."  We know next to nothing about what Ishy knew.

 

Graendel uses a very high level of compulsion on everyone around her.  Ishy is much more subtle than that he likes pulling peoples strings without it looking like there even are strings.  Besides that Grandel's palace is an out of the way place where she issues her commands by messenger.  Do you honestly believe Hawkwing's palace led such an isolated existence?  The level of compulsion required to pull of such a feat would be enormous.  Without an angreal or sa'angreal to help I believe it would be impossible, but that of course leads us back to the can he touch the OP?  I doubt there are any power amplifying objects designed for the TP.

 

How many people do you think get to touch the president of the United States without his say so?  I'd wager to bet that George W. doesn't wield compulsion at all, and is equally unsuccesful at pulling strings.  All he would need is some big, burly, loyal bodyguards and a gruff demeanor. 

 

Now then moving on Taim.  He has not been put into a position to teach Rand, he has been placed into a situation perfect for him to build an army of new Dreadlords.  He is in position to watch and undermine the Dragon Reborn.  He does not consider himself subservient to anyone.  He is in a seat of power and authority.  He is not be asked to train a farmboy the Dark One intends to exalt above him.

 

Again, "We cannot assume anything untill presented with evidence."  We know nothing about what Taim's orders were, or even if he was ordered.  However, we do know that Taim was prepared to teach Rand, and in fact did teach him some things, like the test for Saidin and how to ignore the elements.  As for where he has been placed, I don't think that can be considered the result of any plan, Taim was clearly expecting to be in a subservient role to Rand, and I don't think that any of the characters could hav epredicted that Rand would just leave Taim alone, giving him as much discretion, as he did.  Taim's power and influence seems largely accidental to me, or at the very least the product of Rand's inattention.

 

 

 

 

[hurryupnwait]

I find your logic impeccable.  You are right in many of the points debated there is no way to know one way or the other.  I suspect the one person who really knew the answers to these questions(RJ) has passed on and taken some if not all of those answers with him.

 

I must say cloglord this line of debate has been fun.  I'm not saying that to end it, just as an acknowledgement. 

[cloglord]

The whole point of the argument ealier was not to disagree with luckers, (or later with you,) but to point out that simply saying something in an authoritatve manner did not make it so.  As you pointed out only RJ could do that, and if he has not done it, it won't be done. 

 

Personally, I agree with the idea that Ishy could channel the OP at least in a limited sense, and it makes the most sense to me that Ishy would be able to manifest physically at least part of the time.  Unfortunately,(for me ;)) my belief does not make it true.  I took issue with Lucker's shooting himself in the foot by including his unsupported assumptions into an otherwise well crafted argument.

 

I personally believe that Taim was trained by Ishy, prior to TEotW, and that from there he has been passed back and forth amongst the male forsaken, until recently, he has started going out on his own.  That's my opinion, and I'll be happy to support it as best I can if anyone is interested in hearing why I think that way.

[hurryupnwait]

I would be very interested in hearing your reasoning clog.

[cloglord]

Here is the repost of my, "keep your eye on the bouncing Taim," post on the old boards.

 

Okay, as promised in the "I don't think Be'lal was meeting Ravhin" thread, here is the long awaited connect the dots between Be'lal, Demandred, Sammael, and Taim.

 

First lets talk about the similarities and rivalries among the above mentioned forsaken, (excluding Taim for the time being.)

 

Be'lal, Sammael, and Demandred all share the distinction of being generals under LTT in the war of power, all three, for reasons of their own went over to the shadow. All three were acclaimed as important generals, all hated LTT personally, and none of them got along with the others.

 

 

It has been mentioned in other theories, the beliefe that Demandred did not try and take over a throne of his own, becasue he was instead angling to become the overall military leader for the shadow. I don't think that this falls short of the mark, in fact, I believe that there was an overall military leader for the shadow chosen from almost the time when the Forsaken were released. I believe that leader to have been Be'lal. There has been quite alot of speculation about the clenched gauntlet w/lighting bolts sigil. It is most commonly referenced to Be'lal's coach in TDR, Sammael's throne in the forsaken meeting in TFoH, and lately in the epilouge to KoD's. What if this isn't a personal sigil, but is rather a mark of military rank? The mark of a general or more aptly the mark of THE general. This seems to be supported by the lesser ranks given to Taim's ashamen cronies. I don't remember who was who, but one was an attack leader, and had a clenched fist belt buckle, the other was a storm leader,(an allusion to the lightning bolts?) This would explain why Demandred and Be'lal would have been arguing in Perrin's TAR experience, and why it would take Ishmael's intervention to settle. If this is the case, then it would appear that Be'lal was chosen over Demandred, due to the use of the sigil in TDR. Upon Be'lal's death, the rank would then most likely go to either Sammael or Demandred. Since Sammael uses this sigil in his TAR meeting with Ravhin, Graendal, and Lanfear in TFoH, this certainly could mean that it was granted to Sammael, or that Sammael simply assumed the position inspite of Demandred, it could be that the two were both claiming it at this point. If there was some contention, as there likely would be without a clear Naeblis to intervene, it would explain the mutual dislike that Demandred and Sammael show for each other in their POV's. Personally, I think that the title of overall military commander is likely to be tied to how effectively one of these three generals can control the channeling forces of the Dark.

 

Lets just call this hypothetical military position the General. In TDR, Be'lal has exhibited some degree of influence within the BA, he knows who is in charge of the BA, and has commandeered a platoon of them for his own uses. Further, from this cabal of BA, he likely is aware of the plan to free Taim, and is potentially in a place to set up his own male channeling force. He is in a position to command one of the great nations, and half of the dreadlords, the BA, and is set up to control the other half of the dreadlords. He is the strongest militarily of all the forsaken up to this point, and by virtue of this has been granted the title of General.

 

By these criteria, Sammael would need to attempt to control the male dreadlords to attempt to wrest this position from Be'lal. Since Be'lal is attempting to whip up Tear against Illian, Sammael is likely preparing a defense against Be'lal, and this could include trying to come up with some channelers of his own. Namely Taim.

 

So, before we go any further, we should try and figure out exactly what Taim is. Luckers has proposed a theory that Taim was trained by Ishmael, others claim he was trained by others, or perhaps turned against his will by the 13 BA & Fades trick. Regardless of which theory you chose, Taim is clearly a DF, and is very likely Forsaken trained. It could be he was trained by ishy before the others were release, it could be that he was trained by Be'lal, Demandred, or Sammael during the 250 or so days between when he declared himself the dragon reborn and his capture. It could be that he was trained by Sammael or Demandred during the 341 days between his capture and his arrival in Camelyn. It could even be that he was trained by Dashiva during the 44 days between when Osangar was released and when Rand chose him as one of his personal ashaman. However you explain it, Taim was obviously the first choice as a non-forsaken leader of male dreadlords, and as such would have been a valuable pawn in any number of schemes.

 

If Taim is so valuable, who is controlling him at any given time? Personally I believe that Taim was trained by Ishmael, and was under his control prior to his capture at the end of TGH. With Ishmaels wounding at Falme, and Taim's capture, Ishmael probably commanded Alviarin to rescue Taim, and left it at that for the time being, chosing to focus on Rand, and delegate these less important matters. Maybe he even delgated them to Be'lal. This would seem to be supported by the fact that Ishmael was watching Be'lal closely enough to appear moments after his death to confront Rand. I suspect that Ishmael did not expect to die shortly after Be'lal however, which left Taim's rescue soley in the hands of the BA, and left Taim as a free agent after his release. A free agent that could deliver a great deal of military power to either Demandred or Sammael.

 

There has also been quite a bit of speculation about Demandred's involvement with the borderlander's and his specific involvement with the forthcoming 'darkness' associated with Davram Bashere. This speculation is based on the fact that we have seen nothing concrete and signifigant resulting from Demandred's influence, and we have also seen no proven actor behind the movement of nearly half of the borderland military away from the blight. I happen to agree with this speculation, and would further speculate that if Demandred is directing the borderlanders, he was the one who orchestrated Bashere's attempted capture of Taim. There are two things that I would point to in support of this. Davram Bashere is one of the great general with a widely held reputation, yet he used the offer of truce, to attempt to betray Taim, this seems out of character to me, since these sorts of truce agreements have tended to be made with the oath that only a DF would break. I think that this uncharacteristic behavior is possibly an indicator that Bashere, is one of Demandred's 'proxies'. The second indicator of Bashere's shadyness, comes from the Cooper timeline. According to it, Bashere, who claimed to be following Taim, showed up in Camelyn 37 days before Taim. The question I have to ask is how a person follows another one to a destination 37 days ahead of their quarry. This make me think that Bashere was in fact sent to catch Taim, but was sent by Demandred, not Tenobia. He was sent with the instruction to bring Taim to be controlled, not gentled.

 

This scenario would help me to understand another nagging question I've had, the mysterious change in behavior that Sammael exhibits in LoC. Around the same time that Taim is arriving in Camelyn and turing himself in for Rand's amnesty, Graendal is trying to manipulate Sammael into attacking and killing Rand. Graendal's POV seems to show that she is largely succesfull in pulling Sammael's strings, and accomplishing her manipulations. Yet at their next meeting, Graendal notices that all of the strings that normally motivated Sammael seemed as though they were cut. It is at this meeting that Sammael claims to have made a truce with Rand, and claims the title of Naeblis. This sudden change in Sammael's temperment can be explained by Taim as well. According to the cooper timeline 142 days elapsed between the time that Siuan recieves word of Taim's escape and his arrival in Camelyn. If Sammael managed to get to Taim first, it would explain the 37 day arrival delay, and could explain why Taim would lie about shaving his beard for the heat. If Sammael snagged Taim after his escape, and took him to Illian, it would be a rather severe change in temperature, severe enough to cause the man to shave his beard, until Sammael could train him to ignore the heat. This would explain the sudden change in Sammael's temperment as well. The Cooper timeline puts the first Sammy/Graendel meeting 3 days after Taim shows up in Camelyn, the second is 12 days later. If Sammy had captured and claimed Taim as his own, he would be taking a pretty big gamble sending him to Rand, it would likely make his tense, irritable, and prone to cursing, much as he was at that first meeting. If that gamble paid off by placing a powerful pawn close to rand, and making an allegiance with Rand, it would explain Sammael's claim of an alliance, and explain his sudden surety that Rand would not attack him, because by controlling Taim, he would be controlling the most dangerous part of Rand's military. It fits rather well, I think.

 

Of course Sammael's death occurs after Moridin's rebirth, but before his naming as Naeblis. NOtice the attention that Moridin pays to Sammael during this time. He notes, that he is unsure if Sammael is lying about being named Naeblis, he thinks that a claimed alliance between Rand and Sammael is surely dangerous and false, he shows up in Ebou Dar at the same times that Sammael is there attempting to claim the cache of angreal et al, and he is there in shadar logoth when Rand tries to kill Sammael. Clearly, Sammy is the big dog in a post Be'lal/post ishmael world, and Moridin is paying close attention to what the big dog is doing, presumably so that he can knock him off, and become the big dog again.

 

Once, Sammy is gone, Taim becomes a free agent again, right? It would appear that both Moridin and Demandred have been trying to influence him. Taim, Demandred, and Moridin all gave similar orders to the Ashaman that went to Far Madding after Rand, it would appear that as of KoD's that Moridin has claimed taim as his own, given the dominating colors of Taim's throne room. It is unclear to me, if the fist and lightning bolts on Taim's door indicate that he hase been given rank as a General, if Moridin has claimed that rank for himself, and if Moridin has granted the title to Demandred and placed Taim under him. I really couldn't say.

 

So, As Egeanin Tamarath would say, I have woven moonbeams and happenstance together to make a noose for myself, have at it.

[CUBAREY]

To Cloglord:

 

Davram Bashere is one of the great general with a widely held reputation, yet he used the offer of truce, to attempt to betray Taim, this seems out of character to me, since these sorts of truce agreements have tended to be made with the oath that only a DF would break. I think that this uncharacteristic behavior is possibly an indicator that Bashere, is one of Demandred's 'proxies'

 

 

The actual description of the attempt to capture of Taim under the flag of truce in Chapter 2 of The Lord of Chaos reads:

 

" I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives." The mockery was gone; he was just relating what happened, now. "They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants?  All they really want to do know is serve and obey; they won't they won't be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers."

 

First, its clear from the passage that Bashere was not present at the event, and Taim gives no indication that he believes that Bashere had put them up to breaking the truce. Second notice that what Taim did to the truce breakers sounds a lot like a really powerful compulsion weave that totally destroyed their free will. 

 

Thus, the incident does not support the theory that Bashere is a Darkfriend (while there are other incidents that indicate that he might be, I am uncertain at this point). Second, the punishment meted out by Taim (it looks like compulsion but it may not be the description is admittedly sketchy) at least suggests that Taim may have already have been trained.

 

Second your point about Taim shaving his beard being evidence that he was in Illian being trained by Sammael is a little weak. First Taim could of come up with it. Second its a pretty minor trick (its a mind control exercise not an actual weave) why would Sammael wait until after Taim shaved his beard to teach him the trick The Choosen are admittedly petty but why wait until Taim cuts his beard. Moreover, Bashere at first does not recognize Taim without the beard.  If even Bashere has trouble recognizing Taim then cutting his beard might be a pretty easy way for Taim to disguise himself; he was supposedly running from an army.

 

Thus, while I do not reject your overall conclusions about Bashere and Taim I do not think that these two examples support your argument

[cloglord]

The actual description of the attempt to capture of Taim under the flag of truce in Chapter 2 of The Lord of Chaos reads:

 

" I hear you hid what happened to Musar and Hachari and their wives." The mockery was gone; he was just relating what happened, now. "They shouldn't have tried to kill me under a parley flag. I trust you found them good places as servants?  All they really want to do know is serve and obey; they won't they won't be happy otherwise. I could have killed them. They all four drew daggers."

 

First, its clear from the passage that Bashere was not present at the event, and Taim gives no indication that he believes that Bashere had put them up to breaking the truce. Second notice that what Taim did to the truce breakers sounds a lot like a really powerful compulsion weave that totally destroyed their free will. 

 

While it is clear that Bashere was not present at the meeting where Musar and Hachari met their fates, it is not at all clear from the passage that you cite that he was not in the area, nor does anything in that passage indicate that Bashere did not put them up to it.  To my mind, if Bashere, was close enough to assume responsibility for their care, it indicates that he was in the area, and if he felt compelled to care for trucebreakers, I would submit it was because he felt some culpability for their actions. 

 

Thus, the incident does not support the theory that Bashere is a Darkfriend (while there are other incidents that indicate that he might be, I am uncertain at this point).

 

I'm not trying to make the claim that Bashere is a darkfriend, I'm suggesting that Bashere is being used as a proxy of Demanadred's, much like Morgase was a puppet of Ravhin.  However, it could very well be the case that Bashere is a DF and that Demandred was using him in that capacity.

 

Second, the punishment meted out by Taim (it looks like compulsion but it may not be the description is admittedly sketchy) at least suggests that Taim may have already have been trained.

 

Agreed.  As I said before, I think that Taim was first trained by Ishy, and after Ishy's death in TDR, Demandred tried to use Bashere to snatch him up for himself.  I think that Sammy might have gotten to him first, explaining, the continued anomosity between him and Dem, the sudden shift in Sammy's demeanor, and his claim of a "truce."

 

Second your point about Taim shaving his beard being evidence that he was in Illian being trained by Sammael is a little weak. First Taim could of come up with it. Second its a pretty minor trick (its a mind control exercise not an actual weave) why would Sammael wait until after Taim shaved his beard to teach him the trick The Choosen are admittedly petty but why wait until Taim cuts his beard. Moreover, Bashere at first does not recognize Taim without the beard.  If even Bashere has trouble recognizing Taim then cutting his beard might be a pretty easy way for Taim to disguise himself; he was supposedly running from an army.

 

I don't think it is weak, I think that I did a poor job of explaining it.  Taim himself claim's that he cut his beard because of the heat.  He does so, after already being caught, and while shielded and held at swordpoint.  What possible reason would he have to lie about why he cut his beard?  If he cut it to avoid notice, why not just say that?  If he didn't lie about why he cut his beard, then why does he seem to already know about how to avoid the heat?  As for why Sammy wouldn't have taught him before he cut his beard, several reason come to mind.  The afore mentioned vindictiveness of the forsaken, is one, but there are others as well.  We suspect that Taim's escape was orchestrated with help from BA sisters, yet we never see those sisters, where did they take him, how long did it take to get there?  If the BA was truely involved, how likely is it that they helped him escape, and then just let him go?  It would take weeks to get to Andor, (or illian for that matter,) from the black hills, plenty of time to get tired of his beard, before he finally ended up at Sammy's house.  In either case I find the fact that Taim claimed to have cut his beard because of the heat, while knowing the means to ignore it, to be suspect.

[Tyrell]

I'm just wondering why Ishy would need to actually channel the One Power to be able to teach someone to?

 

Ishy has experience of channeling the One Power and isn't that really what's needed? I mean, ability to channel or not he can still lecture a man about the flame and the void / the oneness and all that and verbally instruct him / impart his wisdom and all that y'know.

 

Asmodean couldn't do much better but he tought Rand to touch the source at will and stuff. Just enough teaching to touch the source at will would get our young dragon well on the way.

[cloglord]

I agree, there is quite a bit that Ishy could teach irregardless, however, if it were to be done quickly, or with any depth of instruction, the less hindered he was, the better.

[Tyrell]

Agreed, I was just nit-picking somewhat ;)

[Majsju]

In order to use TO, you must be able to use OP. Why would this requirement go away for Ishy just because he uses TP extremely much?

[cloglord]

Not nessecarily.  Yes in order to have tha bility to channel the OP you have to have the ability to channel.  HOwever, that does no tmean that if some other force prevented you from channelling one you would be unable to channel the other.  We simply don't know.  If ishy was shielded he might still be able to channel the TP.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry to stifle the conversation.

 

Week 8 Question: When a person that can channel is shielded, where is the shield placed? Is it placed around the whole body of the person or around the head of the channeler where they sense saidin/saidar? If you are shielded from the One Power, are you also shielded from the True Power? What happens if someone in a circle is shielded? Can a Warder feel that his Aes Sedai is shielded?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A shield exists both as a barrier around the entire person and as a single point along with everything in between. . (In a way, this is like the Bore, which does not actually exist as Shayol Ghul. The Bore exists everywhere, but Shayol Ghul is the place where it can best be detected. Which is not to say that there is any connection between the Bore and a shield. Both simply exist in different states simultaneously.) Someone who is shielded and trying to get past the shield can "feel" their way along its inner "surface" hunting for weaknesses, such as the points that indicate where the shield is being maintained or has been tied off. Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power. It isn't possible to shield one person out of a circle since, in effect, the circle has become a single person for the purpose of channeling. You would have to shield the entire circle, which would require either a circle of your own or a pretty hefty sa'angreal. A Warder cannot feel that his Aes Sedai has been shielded, though he would be aware of any agitation on her part. But this would tell him no more than that she was agitated.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

[Majsju]

And what would that force be, the DO shielding people so they are completely dependant on TP, and thus more likely to be loyal?

 

And when would this force kick in? From the hints given in the books it seems quite possible to use TP if there's great need, and then go back to OP. There are even hints that Ishy might be using OP at least during parts of the battle in Tear.

 

While there is not even the shadow of a hint that using TP should make it impossible to use OP.

[cloglord]

Sorry to stifle the conversation.

 

No worries, I'm pretty used to it by now, and interejecting with hard quotable facts has always been a talent of yours.

 

Apparently, I was wrong, and considering that Ishmael, channeled the TP at LTT as early as the beggining of the breaking, he apparently has been able to channel the OP as well.  Thanks RAW for providing the support for Lucker's unsupported statement from over a month ago.

 

And when would this force kick in? From the hints given in the books it seems quite possible to use TP if there's great need, and then go back to OP. There are even hints that Ishy might be using OP at least during parts of the battle in Tear.

 

I think that you might be arguing something here that I am not, I was trying to make the point that we did not know the limitations that ishy was subjected to during his partial capture in the bore.  The instances that you give are from after that, and are uncontested.  The argument dealt specifically with imprisoned Ishy, an argument that I now conceed.

[Majsju]

I think that you might be arguing something here that I am not, I was trying to make the point that we did not know the limitations that ishy was subjected to during his partial capture in the bore.  The instances that you give are from after that, and are uncontested.  The argument dealt specifically with imprisoned Ishy, an argument that I now conceed.

 

I was mostly reacting to the discussion whether or not Ishy could use OP still be floating around, especially since there is a far stronger obstacle for Ishy being Taims tutor, as stated by several people.

 

And just because Ishy did not teach Taim, doesn't mean he didn't teach someone else... ;D

[cloglord]

since there is a far stronger obstacle for Ishy being Taims tutor, as stated by several people.

 

Forgive my momentary braindeadness, what is the bigger obstacle?

[lou]

i dont really see the actions under parley as being particularly devious. taim had been ravaging saldea, and perhaps the armies generals (including bashere) gave a kill in sight order. likewise, taim's reaction was justified by these men drawing daggers on him under a truce. what is interesting is his choice of weave he used on the men.

[Majsju]

since there is a far stronger obstacle for Ishy being Taims tutor, as stated by several people.

 

Forgive my momentary braindeadness, what is the bigger obstacle?

 

Bad choice of word perhaps. Other priorities. IF Ishy was out and about in the world when Taim started to channel enough for the shadow to get reports about it, the shadow knew that the Dragon had been reborn, and pretty much everything we've seen regarding Ishy points at finding the Dragon Reborn is very much top of the list for him. Training some pesky minion? Pfft, delegate that to some of the other forsaken once they wakes up.