Mazrim Taim...it's good to be bad *spoiler*

[Luckers]

Strange I never considered that Taim could be raised Forsaken. Never occurred to me.

 

It occured to me first of all following the attack on the Manor in Tear. It made no sense to me that any of the Forsaken would have launched that attack--they had just experienced the channeling force around Rand, and had no reason to think that he would not used Callandor or the Choedan Kal on the Trollocs. From their perspective all that it did was throw away one hundred thousand Trollocs, and draw Rand's attention back north. I concidered that it might have been Graendal--that the attack might have been bait in a powerplay against the Shadow using Rand as a weapon or something, but it just didn't make any sense, no matter how you looked at it.

 

Then I noticed that Logain had gone out of his way to state that Taim had been trying to find out where Rand was three days before. Now he didn't learn it from Logain, yet Logain had thirty men and fifty Aes Sedai (who, remember, had specifically stated their intention to use the schism between Logain and Taim to bring down the Black Tower) who also knew where Rand was, or at the very least where their bondmate had been. The timing would have been perfect to send a Trolloc assault through the Ways.

 

The more I thought about it, the more sense it made. It fits Taim's MO of blunt throwaway attacks on the chance of success, as well as the way he disguises that he himself was behind the assault. Taim has a history of assuming Forsaken memorabelia, so appearing as Sammael makes sense (note that his use of the lightning sigil that Sammael favoured in the Epilogue of KoD).

 

Yet, for it to have been Taim, he would have needed the Chosen Mark. Yet we had been given the method of that too. Shaidar Haren could give them, and at that stage was specifically moving to set up a balance to the Forsaken's hegemony of authortiy.

 

Thats when it all slid into place. The 'Let the Lord of Chaos rule' comment merely made it certain.

 

I don't think Taim was a child when recruited though, if it was Ishy that did the training. Remember Ishy could only get free from The Seal in cycles and when he did it is normally followed as by war  of some sort. Or some kind of worldly disturbance, Aiel War perhaps...

 

When I said that I thought Taim had been recruited at a 'young age' i was speaking of him being around seventeen or eighteen. And it had to be Ishy--we know it was one of the Forsaken, the mannerisms Taim manifests are too much a thing of the Age of Legends, and he was the only one free.

 

And Ishamael was freed and held on forty year cycles. Not all of his free periods were marked by cataclysmic wars--he only did that when he thought society was growing too sophisticated or united. He was last freed around fifteen years ago, a few years after the Aiel War (which was Rand's dad's doing, not the Shadows). We only know little of his actions, except that he stopped the Vileness and killed Alviarin's predessesor (Jarna Milari?) for having killed Tamra Ospenya. My guess is that he also began other projects around that time including beginning to build up channelers in preperation of Tarmon Gai'don (I believe he would have been recruiting male and female channelers both. I have no doubt he would be more than aware of the number of female channelers that were going unnoticed by the Aes Sedai).

 

So he finds Taim around ten or so years prior to the beginning of the books (Taim will likely not have been the only man trained--im guessing he trained at least twenty or so over the course of ten years, and then set them the task of training others). Taim trains for a year or two, then goes out and begins training others--he mentions the men he's trained to Rand, though he says they went mad, which is doubtful--then about a year before the books begin, when he's around twenty-five or twenty-six, he gets set the task of becoming a false dragon to forment chaos.

 

 

[SqueeEGA]

Is there any evidence of Taim being Ta'Veren?  I was wondering if he was Anti-Rand.  *PodcasterBen may love this idea*  When TG is approaching the pattern makes a call to The Dragon and weaves him in; this time as rand.  What if the counterstroke that tainted saidin also tainted the wheel.  Half of what drives it has the DOs taint on it, seems fair enough to me.  If the taint had an effect on the wheel, then maybe it would spit out somthing to counteract The Dragon. 

 

What if Taim had a voice in his head, but a sane one unaffected by the taint?  It could have taught him...just as a counter theory to Ishy.  Taught him balefire, so he could kill Asmodean.  *snicker*  Come on people, Davram Basheer just mentioned to Rand, not 2 pages before Asmo dies, that he had chased Taim into Andor, and that he was sure Taim was somewhere in Andor.  Ok, enough of that!  Obviously taught him the test. 

 

This is so wild that he most obviously had to have been born with the filter, now.

 

This could also account for his arrogance and bluntness.  Having the knowledge probably since birth...in a way.  Being a human soul, tainted. 

 

Haha, ive found the motive.  RJ stated that the answer to who should be obvious by the time we read it, at least saying that we dont have to read more books to acquire all of the information.  Anyone teaching his opposition would need to be removed.  Obviously hed be aware of this fact being the darkest of all friends, just plain dark...doesnt he have dark skin?  I hope thats not symbolism.  Needless to say it says nothing of why.  RJ was an Aes Sedai of the highest caliber.

 

Either I've completely lost sight of the box people think in, or I'm clinically insane.  Wait!...is there a difference?

[Kura]

Is there any evidence of Taim being Ta'Veren?  I was wondering if he was Anti-Rand.  *PodcasterBen may love this idea*  When TG is approaching the pattern makes a call to The Dragon and weaves him in; this time as rand.  What if the counterstroke that tainted saidin also tainted the wheel.  Half of what drives it has the DOs taint on it, seems fair enough to me.  If the taint had an effect on the wheel, then maybe it would spit out somthing to counteract The Dragon. 

 

What if Taim had a voice in his head, but a sane one unaffected by the taint?  It could have taught him...just as a counter theory to Ishy.  Taught him balefire, so he could kill Asmodean.  *snicker*  Come on people, Davram Basheer just mentioned to Rand, not 2 pages before Asmo dies, that he had chased Taim into Andor, and that he was sure Taim was somewhere in Andor.  Ok, enough of that!  Obviously taught him the test. 

 

This is so wild that he most obviously had to have been born with the filter, now.

 

This could also account for his arrogance and bluntness.  Having the knowledge probably since birth...in a way.  Being a human soul, tainted. 

 

Haha, ive found the motive.  RJ stated that the answer to who should be obvious by the time we read it, at least saying that we dont have to read more books to acquire all of the information.  Anyone teaching his opposition would need to be removed.  Obviously hed be aware of this fact being the darkest of all friends, just plain dark...doesnt he have dark skin?  I hope thats not symbolism.  Needless to say it says nothing of why.  RJ was an Aes Sedai of the highest caliber.

 

Either I've completely lost sight of the box people think in, or I'm clinically insane.  Wait!...is there a difference?

 

As much as I believe in Lucker's posts and theories more, mostly, because of the evidence he throws at us, I really really like this theory. Though it relies on something that I think is quite questionable, the taint on Saidin tainting the wheel. From what I can remember the two halves of the power drive the wheel, make time flow, etc. etc. etc., but they haven't seemed to have any ability to direct what the wheel spins, they just spin it. Kind of like how the river drives the waterwheel, but doesn't control what machinary it powers, just the fact that it has power.

 

Edit: Of course it could have just been the taint driving Taim insane, and he just shows signs of sanity, but thats not as exciting as what you said.  ;)

[Mr Ares]

Is there any evidence of Taim being Ta'Veren?  I was wondering if he was Anti-Rand.  *PodcasterBen may love this idea*  When TG is approaching the pattern makes a call to The Dragon and weaves him in; this time as rand.  What if the counterstroke that tainted saidin also tainted the wheel.  Half of what drives it has the DOs taint on it, seems fair enough to me.  If the taint had an effect on the wheel, then maybe it would spit out somthing to counteract The Dragon.

Not only is there no evidence in favour of Taim being ta'veren, there is evidence against: Logain can see ta'veren, and he never mentions Taim being one, but he is bery aware that Rand is. Is there any evidence for this theory? Thought not. So why should the taint have tainted the Wheel, and wouldn't it have manifested in some way before this, probably rather conspicuously. Instead we have things going as normal and *shock*horror* we find someone who doesn't like Rand to much. He must be an ANTI-DRAGON!!! Also, this seems rather a low key response when the taint usually causes madness - i.e. it destabilizes mental states. If the taint were to affect the Wheel/Pattern, a more likely outcome would a destabilized Pattern, woven by a crazy Wheel. Which is a much more fun theory.

 

What if Taim had a voice in his head, but a sane one unaffected by the taint?  It could have taught him...just as a counter theory to Ishy.  Taught him balefire, so he could kill Asmodean.  *snicker*  Come on people, Davram Bashere just mentioned to Rand, not 2 pages before Asmo dies, that he had chased Taim into Andor, and that he was sure Taim was somewhere in Andor.Ok, enough of that! Obviously taught him the test.

"The voices in my head taught me balefire, but not that it isn't a brilliant idea to sneak into a city, kill someone, then spend a couple of weeks sleeping in a ditch when there is an amnesty, so you could maybe visit the palace". Far more likely Ishy was his teacher, or he worked it out for himself. Oh, and Andor is a big country, Caemlyn does not cover all of it. And surely if there was a voice we would have some evidence of it? I don't see a problem with a hypothetical voice being sane though, I just don't think Taim has any voices in his head but his own.

 

This could also account for his arrogance and bluntness. Having the knowledge probably since birth...in a way. Being a human soul, tainted.

Makes perfect sense. I'm arrogant and blunt as well. I must be the ANTI-DRAGON!!!, with the knowledge, since birth, that my soul is TAINTED!!!, and that I am EVIL!!! Or maybe I'm just an arrogant, blunt bastard, like Taim.

 

Haha, ive found the motive. RJ stated that the answer to who should be obvious by the time we read it, at least saying that we dont have to read more books to acquire all of the information. Anyone teaching his opposition would need to be removed. Obviously hed be aware of this fact being the darkest of all friends, just plain dark...doesnt he have dark skin? I hope thats not symbolism. Needless to say it says nothing of why.  RJ was an Aes Sedai of the highest caliber.

We hadn't met Taim by that point, and had no reason to believe him an ANTI-DRAGON!!! so this can hardly be considered any sort of answer.

 

Either I've completely lost sight of the box people think in, or I'm clinically insane. Wait!...is there a difference?

Not really. Still, another nutter around here will hardly make a difference. And sorry to rain on your parade/ spoil your theorising/ upset a madman (delete as applicable).

[Luckers]

Squee, it's simply unlikely. For starters, as Mr. Ares (so bluntly?) points out, Logain would have been aware that Taim was ta'veren the moment he cause sight of him. Secondly, Taim displays none of the mannerisms of a man hearing another man's voice. Thirdly, RJ already has a random tainted enemy for Rand--Fain.

 

As for Taim killing Asmodean. One solid issue. When Asmodean was freed, Taim was already in play as the Dragon, and soon thereafter caught. By the time he was freed, Asmodean was caught. They would never have met, and subsequently Asmodean would never have recognized him--especially since the man apparently looked different by the time he reached Andor.

[cloglord]

Taim has a history of assuming Forsaken memorabelia, so appearing as Sammael makes sense (note that his use of the lightning sigil that Sammael favoured in the Epilogue of KoD).

 

That same sigil was used by Be'lal on his coach in Tear.  Not to mention the use of Morindin's red and black in his hall, and the use of the "Lord of Chaos" phrase that Demandred at one point tried to limit the dissemination of.

[Mr Ares]

As Mr. Ares (so bluntly?) points out...

And arrogantly. Don't forget the arrogance, it's a big part of what makes me the anti-Dragon(!!!). And sarcasm, of course, but that goes without saying. Good points about that stuff I missed, but you mispelled my name, Luckers (no full stop after the Mr). I'll let it slide this once, but do it again, and will have to kill you, and bury you in a shallow grave (easier to dig, you see). Now, do any other members consider themselves arrogant and blunt? Are there any other anti-Dragons here? Am I just a red herring?

[Luckers]

I agree with the shallow grave idea. That way its much easier for me to rise again as zombie-Luckers.

[lou]

i soppose if being an anti dragon consists of using facts rather than speculation and theorizing, then there might be a few anti-dragons out there. the sarcasm (goes without saying indeed), well, if they are that sensitive, please stay out of the asmo threads, where you can and will be blasted for any assumption.

please dont kill anyone who threatens to come back in zombie form, note that since the recent "dead" movie, zombies can run now, as apposed to the zombie shuffle that was only fair to the victims in prvious films of the brain eaters.

[Majsju]

It would be possible for a Darkfriend or Forsaken to be made ta’veren, but it seems unlikely.  Ta’veren are part of the Wheel’s self-correcting mechanism.  When the Pattern seems to be drifting too quickly, and especially if it is in the wrong direction, one or more ta’veren are created.  I can’t really see how making a Darkfriend or Forsaken ta’veren would help with correcting the drift of the Pattern.  Ta’veren can oppose one another, when their conflict is what the Wheel “sees” as the necessary corrective.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?m=200510

[lou]

one of the things that bothers me about ishmael recruiting taim at an early age (i would agree with 17-18 due to the fact that spontaneous channeling would occur at that age for the guys)is that i find it unlikely that ish would allow such a strong channeler to face the taint virtually alone, without a filter securing him to the DO. but, for taim to recieve such a filter, would that require him to travel to the bore? ish cannot do that from Tel, as there is no reflection in Tel of the bore? its a curiousity of mine....

[Luckers]

Firstly, Ishamael was able to manifest physically when he was free, and channel normally, so he could simply have travelled. But beyond that Taim could simply have gone there himself, much like Fain, or Alviarin or Liandrin.

[cloglord]

I'm not sure that's true Luckers.  Didn't Fain say that Bal'azamon appeared to drive the trollocs and fades into Shadar Logoth in TEotW.  Didn't he describe Ishy as flickering and faint?  I think that there were some restrictions on Ishy's manifestations while trapped in the seal, perhaps they were similar to some of the restrictions that Shadar Haran is experiencing?

[RobertAlexWillis]

That is correct, cloglord, however, when Ishamael was free, he was to different extents at different times.  It is perhaps true that he could not manifest physically far from Shayol Ghul at some points, but he could make invitations and make his will known.  He personally killed Jarna Malari in 982, when Taim would have been somewhere around 10 years old.  Since anything Ishy did with Taim would definitely be after that, we have solid evidence that Ishy would have been available to, at the least, contact Taim and instruct him to come to Shayol Ghul, assuming Taim was amenable, and once there, he certainly could have given Taim basic training.

[cloglord]

That is correct, cloglord, however, when Ishamael was free, he was to different extents at different times.  It is perhaps true that he could not manifest physically far from Shayol Ghul at some points, but he could make invitations and make his will known.  He personally killed Jarna Malari in 982, when Taim would have been somewhere around 10 years old.  Since anything Ishy did with Taim would definitely be after that, we have solid evidence that Ishy would have been available to, at the least, contact Taim and instruct him to come to Shayol Ghul, assuming Taim was amenable, and once there, he certainly could have given Taim basic training.

 

I don't disagree, in fact I think that Ishy is the most likely tutor for Taim.  However, Luckers was making the claim that Ishy could manifest physically and channel normally, a claim that is unsubstantiated.  We don't know what limitations he had on physical manifestation, and we also don't know if his channeling was "normal" or not.

[DemandredFO]

I think part of the flickering thing was because of Shadar Logoth and part was the seal was probably breaking but not yet broken, because if Ishy was free in 982 he really wasn't supposed to be free again until 1022.  There is this too, when Ishamael was Hawkwing's advisor in disguise he obviously could appear and channell normally to maintain a mask of mirrors.  I think someone would have noticed if an advisor flickered or had fireeyes.  My 2cents

[Luckers]

I don't disagree, in fact I think that Ishy is the most likely tutor for Taim.  However, Luckers was making the claim that Ishy could manifest physically and channel normally, a claim that is unsubstantiated.  We don't know what limitations he had on physical manifestation, and we also don't know if his channeling was "normal" or not.

 

I was making the claim...

 

Cloglord, i fear you've misunderstood me. I was not claiming that Ishamael simply wandered around like a normal human being. My comment, a direct response to the claim that Ishamael could not manifest physically, was that we know that he could--which we do between incidences in the prologue of tEotW, the fact that he manifested physically as Moerad with Hawkwing, the fact that he managed to contrain and force Jarna Milari into a ter'angreal and activate it, and so forth.

 

Through this we do know that in varying stages of his imprisonment Ishamael WAS able to manifest physically and channel normally. We even witness it. I never suggested there weren't varying levels of restrictions, merely that at the time of Taim's training we know that Ishamael was physical active, and able to channel (since he trained Taim at all. Therefore the possibility that he could create a gateway strikes me as far from being unsubstantiated.

 

I'm not sure what you thought i was arguing... i didn't think i was that unclear, and Robert certainly seems to have got my message, but if not hopefully this clarifies it for you. In future though, try not to put words in my mouth.

[cloglord]

Firstly, Ishamael was able to manifest physically when he was free, and channel normally

 

I didn't put words in your mouth, you made that claim, I disagree that it is nessecarily true.  This claim is in two parts.  1. That Ishamel was able to maifest physically & 2. that he was able to channel normally.  While I don't now that these two claims are false, I am equally unsure that they are true.  I'll adress each part individually.

 

First, the claim that he could manifest physically.  While it is true that Ishy has appeared at different imes since he was sealed, there is no first hand knowledge that his appearance was anything more than illusory.  No where, to my knowledge, did Ishy interact physically with any place or person, until after he was released from the seals.  While we do not have an instance of Ishy physically intereacting with his environment, we similarly don't have an indication that he could not.  My point being, that we do not know that he could manifest physically, only that he could appear to manifest physically.  A fine point perhaps, but none the less true.

 

The real problem that I had with your earlier statement comes from your second assertion, that Ishy could channel normally.  This is just plain unfounded.  We know that Ishy could access the TP from the DO, but we have no examples of Ishy using the OP at all.  In fact in the prolouge to TEotW,  Ishy seems to eschew the OP, claiming that he follows a different power now.  It is in this passage that the infamous shimmer-traveling takes place as well.  This does not seem to me to be examples of "normal" channeling, but rather examples of exclusive TP useage.  It could be that Ishy made a desicion to only channel the TP, but it is certainly not out of the range of possibility that Ishy couldn't channel the OP any longer being partially trapped as he was, and instead could only act by means of the TP.  Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm simply pointing out that the situation is not as certain as you claimed. 

 

I'm not sure what you thought i was arguing... i didn't think i was that unclear, and Robert certainly seems to have got my message, but if not hopefully this clarifies it for you. In future though, try not to put words in my mouth.

 

I was not confused, and was not adressing your arguments, in fact I agree with what you were arguing, I simply am not as certain as you appear to be that Ishy had periods of unrestricted access to the realworld.  As for putting words in your mouth, I'm not really sure where you got the impression that I was doing that.  I was specifically adressing the 2-part claim that you made about Ishy's freedom.

[lou]

goodgriefgoshdarndamn.

what my original intent was the question that ish was or was not infact able to do much more than the illusionary acts as opposed to the more physical manifestations. if he had manifested to kill jarna when taim was ten, was he free 7-8 years later when taim's abilities manifested themselves? how long was ish able to remain away from confinement on his 40 (respectfully) year cycle?

[RobertAlexWillis]

There seems to be a complex (and unknown) math involved in Ishamael's 40 year and 1200 year cycles ... and varying extents of freedom and limitation that don't seem to fit a specific pattern.  We don't have nearly enough information to extrapolate a complete picture ... so the only way to approach the idea is that it can't really be predicted just how free Ishy is at any particular time, or in any particular place, up until after events at the Eye.  After those events, it seems that he, like the rest of the Forsaken, is completely free.

 

Sometimes he could manifect physically.  Sometimes he could not.  Sometimes his channeling may have been affected.  Others it seems not to have been.

 

But surely, at some point between 982 and 998 NE, he would have been able to manifest sufficiently to obtain Taim's allegience and begin some form of training.  Ishamael's limitations are not a preventative factor bearing on Taim's potential to have recieved Dreadlord training prior to 998 NE.

[Luckers]

I didn't put words in your mouth, you made that claim, I disagree that it is nessecarily true.  This claim is in two parts.  1. That Ishamel was able to maifest physically & 2. that he was able to channel normally.  While I don't now that these two claims are false, I am equally unsure that they are true.  I'll adress each part individually.

 

No, you misunderstood me, and now are telling me what I said. That seems to me to be putting words in my mouth.

 

First, the claim that he could manifest physically.  While it is true that Ishy has appeared at different imes since he was sealed, there is no first hand knowledge that his appearance was anything more than illusory.  No where, to my knowledge, did Ishy interact physically with any place or person, until after he was released from the seals.  While we do not have an instance of Ishy physically intereacting with his environment, we similarly don't have an indication that he could not.  My point being, that we do not know that he could manifest physically, only that he could appear to manifest physically.  A fine point perhaps, but none the less true.

 

1. He forces Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal which requires a manifest force of, at least, channeling, and if he can channel then he is capable of physically influencing the world.

 

2. He spends forty years living as Hawkwing's advisor. A key influence on the most influential man in the world, and you think people would not have noticed if he were an illusion in that time?

 

3. He heals Rand, again showing interaction with his enviroment.

 

Oh, but thats right, im arguing that he could wander around as a physical body, acting just like any other human being, arn't I? Please.

 

The real problem that I had with your earlier statement comes from your second assertion, that Ishy could channel normally.  This is just plain unfounded.  We know that Ishy could access the TP from the DO, but we have no examples of Ishy using the OP at all.  In fact in the prolouge to TEotW,  Ishy seems to eschew the OP, claiming that he follows a different power now.  It is in this passage that the infamous shimmer-traveling takes place as well.  This does not seem to me to be examples of "normal" channeling, but rather examples of exclusive TP useage.  It could be that Ishy made a desicion to only channel the TP, but it is certainly not out of the range of possibility that Ishy couldn't channel the OP any longer being partially trapped as he was, and instead could only act by means of the TP.  Again, I'm not saying that you are wrong, I'm simply pointing out that the situation is not as certain as you claimed.

 

When did I say that Ishamael must have used the One Power? I said that he could channel normally, and indeed he can--we witness him heal Lews Therin and travel away. We know he contained and killed Jarna, an act that must surely involved channeling. He likely used compulsion to some degree on Hawkwing (though that is just conjecture).

 

End game? He could channel mate. And if he could channel, he could travel, which if you bothered to pay any attention to the context you'd know was the point of my comment. All that about my supposed catagoric statement reguarding Ishamael's ability to channel the one power, and wander around as a normal person... that would be you misunderstanding me. I understand why you did so mate, but sitting here in the face of my previous clarification--thats just silly.

 

I was not confused, and was not adressing your arguments, in fact I agree with what you were arguing, I simply am not as certain as you appear to be that Ishy had periods of unrestricted access to the realworld.  As for putting words in your mouth, I'm not really sure where you got the impression that I was doing that.  I was specifically adressing the 2-part claim that you made about Ishy's freedom.

 

You were and are confused, as is made clear by the fact this claim you think i made. You misunderstood me, fine. I was unclear. Continuing on to tell me catagorically what i said and what i meant following a clarification saying no, i did not say that, and i did not mean that... thats just rank stupidity.

 

 

[cloglord]

Channeling the TP is not channeling normally.  In point of fact it is channeling abnormally.  This might not seem important, but the fact of the matter is that we are discussing wether or not Ishy was Taim's tutor in the OP, not his TP tutor.  It certainly is important to know whether Ishy was capable of channeling the OP normally during his partial incarceration, if we are trying to determine if he was the source of Taim's OP knowledge and skills. 

 

Channeling to influence the physical world is not nesescarily normal if it is done exclusively.  Suian shows as much when she talks about the ability to conjure a knife with the OP, when it is so much easier just to carry a knife.  If Ishy used the TP to manipulate his environment exclusively then that would certainly be abnormal.

 

1. He forces Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal which requires a manifest force of, at least, channeling, and if he can channel then he is capable of physically influencing the world.

 

Is compulsion a physical influence?  Do you know he didn't compel her to enter the ter'angreal?

 

2. He spends forty years living as Hawkwing's advisor. A key influence on the most influential man in the world, and you think people would not have noticed if he were an illusion in that time?

 

Did anyone notice that he had flames for eyes in those fourty years?

 

3. He heals Rand, again showing interaction with his enviroment.

 

He does this right after saying that he is incapable of doing this by normal OP channeling.

 

Oh, but thats right, im arguing that he could wander around as a physical body, acting just like any other human being, arn't I? Please.

 

Argue what you want, what you said was this....

 

Firstly, Ishamael was able to manifest physically when he was free, and channel normally

 

I disagree that it is that simple, if you meant it differently, then you should have said what you meant, but this IS what you said, and this IS what I disagreed with.  I even told you why I disagreed with it.  If you meant something other than what you said, then you should put different words into your own mouth.  I've not put any there for you.

[DemandredFO]

We KNOW that Ishamael could channel the One power at times because he OBVIOUSLY trained the dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars.  We do not know if he used the OP at any other time, he could have used a mask of mirrors to hide his fire eyes.  However, we do know that he was as strong as Lews Therin in the One Power.  That my 2cents

[cloglord]

We KNOW that Ishamael could channel the One power at times because he OBVIOUSLY trained the dreadlords in the Trolloc Wars.

 

We do not KNOW anything of the sort, we can strongly suspect it, but it is not a provable statement no matter how ingeniously you use your CAPS lock.  If the dreadlords were OBVIOUSLY trained by Ishmael, in his full capacity to channel, why couldn't the male dreadlords Travel, why didn't they decimate the Aes Sedai of the trolloc wars with weaves returned from the AoL?  WE simply DON'T know THAT ishmael COULD channel NORMALLY.

[Luckers]

Channeling the TP is not channeling normally.  In point of fact it is channeling abnormally.  This might not seem important, but the fact of the matter is that we are discussing wether or not Ishy was Taim's tutor in the OP, not his TP tutor.  It certainly is important to know whether Ishy was capable of channeling the OP normally during his partial incarceration, if we are trying to determine if he was the source of Taim's OP knowledge and skills. 

 

To your definition cloglord. Myself, I was only speaking in terms of effects. Ishamael continues to be able to channel effectively, therefore I stated that he continues to channel normally, and what do you know... he does.

 

And whilst it may be important to you, it wasn't to me, and arguing that it was is silly.

 

Quote

1. He forces Jarna Milari into the ter'angreal which requires a manifest force of, at least, channeling, and if he can channel then he is capable of physically influencing the world.

 

Is compulsion a physical influence?  Do you know he didn't compel her to enter the ter'angreal?

 

Yes, I would say it to be a physical influence. Not in the way your trying to twist it to mean in your ongoing desperation to insist that i was arguing a point opposite yours.

 

Now are you interested in what I actually think, or what you need me to be thinking in order that you not look like a complete twat? If so tell me.

 

Quote

2. He spends forty years living as Hawkwing's advisor. A key influence on the most influential man in the world, and you think people would not have noticed if he were an illusion in that time?

 

 

Did anyone notice that he had flames for eyes in those fourty years?

 

Your assuming he had flames for eyes in those years, and beyond that that he did not simply mask them with the Mask of Mirrors, and neither assumption is even a remotely an answer for the point I raised.

 

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3. He heals Rand, again showing interaction with his enviroment.

 

He does this right after saying that he is incapable of doing this by normal OP channeling.

 

Yes... thats right. I'm sorry, you say that like you've made a point....

 

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Firstly, Ishamael was able to manifest physically when he was free, and channel normally

 

I disagree that it is that simple, if you meant it differently, then you should have said what you meant, but this IS what you said, and this IS what I disagreed with.  I even told you why I disagreed with it.  If you meant something other than what you said, then you should put different words into your own mouth.  I've not put any there for you.

 

You mean like, maybe, clarifying it all in the following post when you dramatically misread it... yes, I should have done that... oh wait.

 

Cloglord... are you being serious about this? You were completely wrong in your interpretation, but i understand that, it was a vague comment. But this is simply retarded.