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Aran'gar's Compulsion of Eqwene


The Lost One
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Below is a quote from Luckers that was in another post.  I had no idea Aran'gar was using compulsion on Eqwene.  I just thought he was creating the headaches to interupt her dreaming and her concentration.  And ensuring to be close by her side, since he or she (Halima) could cure the headaches. 

 

Does anyone know what some of the ideas he tweaked were?  or any other things he compelled her to do or not to do?  I can't remember things she changed her mind or did differently as a result.  I will look from them in the next re-read. 

 

Was he doing anything else?

 

Quote from Luckers:

"A side point here, Egwene is a different case. Aran'gar kept her compulsion small specifically because it can a) be detected by delving, and Egwene was getting delved upon occaision because of the headaches that were a side-effect of Aran'gar blunting Egwene's dreaming ability, and b) Because powerful compulsion can be obvious.

 

Instead Aran'gar merely... tweaked Egwene's ideas. It was subtle, and i suspect in terms of lasting, it was much much stronger. Much like Elza actively clinging to her new position, Egwene's changes in regaurds to the oath and such have become her position, and she is not subconciously fighting it.

 

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Aran'gar was supposed to influence Egwene to stay put, and not attempt a direct confrontation, so the two camps would just sit glaring at eachother.

 

If thats the case she/he did a horrible job. Arangars been in the camp since Salidar, since than we had a March across Altara and Murandy, driven solely by Egwene. Nobody really supported her, whoever did were manipulated into it. After that she came up with moving them by travelling.

 

I dont really disagree with the idea that she was compelled, but I cant see any 'proof' for it. Her change in stance on the oath rod is a possible point, but it could also just as possibly be that Siuan changed Egwenes mind, with her speech about the oath being what made them Aes Sedai. Thats pretty much the same reasoning Egwene uses later.

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I have reread the series, I have no idea how many times.  I would have to see the proof to believe there was any compulsion.  The headaches we know to be true, now I respect the ability of Luckers quite a bit, but there has been no POV to suggest that there was any compulsion, the whole stay put thing does not work for me.  Halmia was to try and slow them down, which if compulsion was used, there is no doubt Egwene would still be sitting!!   

 

 

Now I am sure as Good as Luckers and Robert are, they will pull some POV out of the series that I just keep forgetting.

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The only actual statements we have about the matter is in KOD, At The Gardens...

 

"Why did you let her go, Aran'gar? You were supposed to be controlling her! Were you so busy playing your little dream-games with her that you forgot to learn what she was thinking? The rebellion will fall apart without her for a figurehead. All my careful planning ruined because you couldn't keep a grasp on one ignorant girl!"

 

[...]

 

"I listened in on a sitting of the rebels Hall last night. In the World of Dreams, so they could meet inside the White Tower, with Egwene leading it. She's not the figurehead you believe. I've tried telling you before, but you never listened. [...]

Egwene told them all about the situation inside the Tower, the Ajahs at one anothers throats. She convinced them it's the Tower that is about to fall apart, and that she might be able to help it along from where she is. Were I you, I'd worry whether the Tower can hold together long enough to keep this conflict going."

 

So, the main object is to keep the conflict where it currently is, both camps sitting still, just glaring at eachother. That Egwene moved the army does in no way have a negative impact on this, rather on the contrary since having them just outside Tar Valon binds up more sisters to stay where they are, instead of going out on other missions.

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the headaches were initially caused by being shook half to death by lanfear at the docks, perhaps "halima" prolonged those to make "herself" neccesary to egwene. i think the compelled instructions were meant to push the AS to confrontation with the white tower AS in an effort to further split the tower, when, if you remember, at that time, the rebel camp was still hoping for reconcilliation.

maj is right, of course, this would keep the AS focus on each other and not on TG, where it should be.

 

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I'm not even certain that Aran'gar was using compulsion, though I think it likely. My quotes in the other thread were directed at discussing the strength of that compulsion (if it existed) compared to the likes of that used on Morgase, and the subsequent ease or difficulty with which it might be shrugged off.

 

I have reread the series, I have no idea how many times.  I would have to see the proof to believe there was any compulsion.  The headaches we know to be true, now I respect the ability of Luckers quite a bit, but there has been no POV to suggest that there was any compulsion, the whole stay put thing does not work for me.  Halmia was to try and slow them down, which if compulsion was used, there is no doubt Egwene would still be sitting!!

 

As I said above, it's not certain, yet we do have certain bits of evidence that imply it. Aside from Maj's very apt quotes, we also have Egwene's sudden one-eighty on the oaths. There is no progression there, no time when she pauses to concider Siuan or anyone elses arguments--it goes from her telling Siuan the oaths are a mistake, to her stating her absolute intention that they be maintained.

 

Additionally, we have Egwene's dreams at night the is running from something. This dream matches Morgase's almost exactly in terms of description. Now, this might very well be a side effect of Aran'gar blunting her dreaming ability, yet Egwene herself differentiates this dream--she says, she could not remember her dreams, and the few that she could were the dreams of running.

 

So yes, its not certain, but i do think that Aran'gar was making use of minute levels of compulsion, not to control as such, but to 'tweak' Egwene's ideas and positions more in line with what was good for the Shadow.

 

If thats the case she/he did a horrible job. Arangars been in the camp since Salidar, since than we had a March across Altara and Murandy, driven solely by Egwene. Nobody really supported her, whoever did were manipulated into it. After that she came up with moving them by travelling.

 

No, the Shadow wanted confrontation, but they did not want OPEN confrontation. They didn't want war, or active negotiation that led to an effect end. They wanted to maintain the split, but at the same time, keep it from becoming complacent.

 

That being said though. Aran'gar was limited in what she could achieve. For a while there Egwene was having daily delvings, and delving can detect compulsion. At best she could hope for weak manipulation.

 

She hasn't been in control of Egwene, she's just been... channeling her efforts so the result better serves the Shadow.

 

the headaches were initially caused by being shook half to death by lanfear at the docks, perhaps "halima" prolonged those to make "herself" neccesary to egwene.

 

The issue is that we do know there is a link between those headaches and Egwene's inability to dream. Chesa finds a herbal remedy, and for the first time since Egwene started having the headaches (Halima's headaches, which should be differentiated from those caused by Lanfear, which had faded before Halima arived) she dreamed.

 

Yes, Aran'gar used them to bind herself to Egwene, but i believe their primrary function was in disrupting the dreaming.

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So, the main object is to keep the conflict where it currently is, both camps sitting still, just glaring at eachother. That Egwene moved the army does in no way have a negative impact on this, rather on the contrary since having them just outside Tar Valon binds up more sisters to stay where they are, instead of going out on other missions.

 

The fact that Mesaana wants the conflict to stay where it currently is does not mean that she's fine with the fact that Egwene moved the Salidar sisters to Tar Valon.  Their close proximity makes actual conflict, followed by resolution much, much more likely.  In fact, that's exactly whats going to happen.

 

No, when Mesaana says, "All my careful planning ruined because you couldn't keep a grasp on one ignorant girl!" she's talking as much about letting Egwene actually get them to Tar Valon as she is about letting Egwene get captured.  After all, Egwene would never have gotten captured if she hadn't been in close proximity to Tar Valon.  Once the two armies are facing each other across the Erinin, open conflict, followed by resolution of some form or the other, become almost inevitable.

 

On another note ... just because Mesaana assumes that, "The rebellion will fall apart without her for a figurehead." doesn't make it so.  Lelaine is already making plans for a post-Egwene power play.

 

As for the "Compulsion" question, this is again very much a question of semantics.  Did Aran'gar attempt to influence Egwene's decisions through channeling?  Almost assuredly.  Was it the same "Compulsion" weave that Graendal used on Cyndane and Moggy, or that Moggy used on Nynaeve and Elayne?  Obviously not.  So, it depends on how you define "Compulsion".  Verin's little cobbled together method proves that there are a wide variety of weaves that can be used, with a variety of effects, side effects, and levels of efficacy.

 

This is one problem with the way Aes Sedai view the Power.  They give a particular weave a title, then assume thats the only way it can be done.  Healing is a perfect example.  But the the Power is actually much more subtle and varied.

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This is one problem with the way Aes Sedai view the Power.  They give a particular weave a title, then assume thats the only way it can be done.  Healing is a perfect example.  But the the Power is actually much more subtle and varied.

 

That's a good point, and I definitely hadn't thought of it that way. Part of the problem of reading through the eyes of Third Agers is we start to think of things with the same assumptions that they have.

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