Half the Light of the World and the Warder's Bond

[TheRedSon]

Probably grasping here, but I'll throw it out there anyway...

 

Facts...  Or close enough...

 

Moiraine is in finnland (Eelfinnland to be exact).

When the door to Eelfinnland was destroyed Lan's bond was transferred to Myrelle.

Mat believes the Eelfinn somehow witness the lives of those they have made bargains with.

Mat doesn't know the Eelfinn's price for the bargain he made with them.

Mat, Thom and one other (Noal) are going to attempt to rescue Moiraine.

 

Guesses

 

Suppose that Moiraine is captive (or stranded) in Eelfinnland but has not been stilled.  In that case the event that severed the bond was the collapse of the door between two worlds.  Without the conduit the bond could not hold.  It was severed the same way a rope stretched through a gateway would be when the gateway was closed.

 

Suppose Mat's fears are correct and the Eelfinn have been watching his life unfold through his eyes the same way they apparently did all the lives of the men and women in his memories.

 

Then in the same way the bond was severed when the door was destroyed the Eelfinn's connection to Matt was also severed.  In that case, he is already free of them.

 

Until he has to go back to rescue Moiraine anyway.  Up until today I thought Mat and the others would have to cheat the finns to rescue her and escape the Tower of Ghenji, but now I think Mat is going to have to make another bargain or honor his original one (perhaps in addition to cheating them) to escape. 

 

Since the Eelfinn have been denied Mat's experiences since the collapse of the doorway they may demand recompense.  Which leads me to... 

 

Mat has to offer his eye to the Eefinn for safe passage for him, Thom, Noal and Moiraine out of finnland. 

 

There are any number of other reasons Mat will need to lose an eye with relation to this plot thread, but I think his return to finnland will be the catalyst that fulfills the prophecies that suggest he will lose an eye.

 

 

[bcxanth]

Although I agree that Mat will have to lose his eye in the adventure into the Tower, I don't think it will be as an offer to them. I believe he will somhow figure out which eye it is they can see through, and then take his own eye in order to keep them from being able to see what he and his party are doing.

[TheRedSon]

And that still fits...  He will lose an eye because he returns to finnland and it will be his choice to lose that eye.  If he leaves Moiraine there he will not have to lose that eye.

 

Perhaps Matt makes a bargain with the finn to reestablish his link with them and then cheats them by removing the eye himself.  Like I said, there are any number of reasons it would become necessary for him to agree to lose his eye, but I think all of them hinge on whether or not he comes into contact with the Eelfinn again and it's a pretty damn good bet that he will.

[TheRedSon]

Sorry to double post...

 

In fact, that makes even more sense.  They demand Mat honor the bargain he made with them (his experiences/memories) in order to release Moiraine.  Matt agrees reluctantly and later removes his eye.  You can't fool a trickster (the Trickster) twice.

 

I'm sure Mat would like to keep his eye, but this way the finn don't profit from dealing with him.

[dmanmiller34]

Wait wait wait. Where is the proof that the Finns are currently seeing through his eyes in the first place? I am on my 4th re-read and i have never seen anything to suport that. Please enlighten me. I have read where it says he will lose an eye but not that the fins can see through his eye.

[bcxanth]

One problem though is that you're taking the position that when Mat left, or when the Doorway was melted, it broke their contact with him. However Mat's memories he was given all include death scenes, which means that the contact must remain even after the subjects of those memories left the land of the 'Finns. So that means simply leaving through the doorway doesn't snap the link. Now granted, that still leaves the melting of the doorway as being a possible way, but that seems wrong to me. I just get the feeling that all the Doorways really did is make it easy to access the Tower of Ghenji.  As long as the Tower is there in Randland though, then I think any link they have to Mat would still remain active.

 

Also, that fact that Lanfear came back as Cyndane but with far less power then she had before, implies that the incident on the docks caused Lanfear to be burnt out, and then likely therefore Moir was as well.

 

Wait wait wait. Where is the proof that the Finns are currently seeing through his eyes in the first place? I am on my 4th re-read and i have never seen anything to suport that. Please enlighten me. I have read where it says he will lose an eye but not that the fins can see through his eye.

Mat figured it out in the last book.

[Setalle]

Ok, I don't actually remember where it says that he loses an eye...but I'm on my first reread since finishing KoD,(7th or 8th reread of the series up to CoT) so give me time, I'll get there! :D

 

But I DO remember thinking that the finns seeing through his eyes was kind of far fetched. His memories were given to him to replace what he lost because of the dagger. The finns are obviously pretty powerful, with Tuon and all, but I don't think their power goes that far.

 

As for rescuing Moiraine, I think it'll come down to the rules for Snakes and Foxes. I'm not about to quote it, we all know it, but that's obviously the key to defeating the finns. I have no opinions on whether Moiraine was burned out in the meltdown...top of my head, I don't think she was.  ;D

 

 

[Vambram]

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org:8008/books/kod/ch10.html

 

Mat reveals, or remembers, this information about the 'Finns to Thom Merrilon about how they can know what is in Mat's mind in KoD chapter 10.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Suppose that Moiraine is captive (or stranded) in Eelfinnland but has not been stilled.

 

And so Moiraine doesn't think of trying to channel to defend her life? Lanfear doesn't either? Neither realizes that music dazes them, iron can bind them, and fire can blind them?

 

Lanfear, at least, is not bound by the 3 oaths, and I'm not so sure Moir wouldn't be able to convince herself that her life was in danger.

[Luckers]

Suppose that Moiraine is captive (or stranded) in Eelfinnland but has not been stilled.

 

Ok, but how are the Finns managing to contain a channeler as strong as Moiraine? Or Lanfear, for that matter, who must surely have known who and what they are, as well as prospective methods of escape. And lets not forget that both women had their own angreal (Unless Moiraine managed to get the bracelet away from Lanfear completely, in which case she has two).

 

We know that a) Channeling works against the Finns, and b) they don't have any method to deaden the ability. So how are they holding Moiraine?

 

In fact, that makes even more sense.  They demand Mat honor the bargain he made with them (his experiences/memories) in order to release Moiraine.  Matt agrees reluctantly and later removes his eye.  You can't fool a trickster (the Trickster) twice.

 

The issue is that Mat's Finn memories are in full colour--by which i mean they come with the full range of human emotions, including sight from two eyes, sound from two ears, and... i presume, physical sensations and smells as well.

 

I agree that Mat loosing an eye will mostly likely result from him intentionally removing it/giving it up/sacrificing it, but to stop the Finns percieving through his senses... i don't know... it seems unlikely.

 

Lanfear, at least, is not bound by the 3 oaths, and I'm not so sure Moir wouldn't be able to convince herself that her life was in danger.

 

Even if she wasn't able to convince herself of iminent threat, Moiraine is well trained at using the power to protect herself in non-weaponized forms.

[dmanmiller34]

OK i just read the Enylopedia link. So are we baseing that the finss can expirance what he sees by what Toun said about the foxes wearing peoples skins and obtaioning they're owners nurishment? Is something accually said the chapter that is just skimmed over in the chapter summary? I don't have my book so i can't check it out.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

No, read further down. All that quote went to prove was that Mat told Thom about them giving him memories and him fearing they were somehow obtaining his memories (sight, taste, touch, sound, etc.)

[Child of Lir]

Surely Mat has already paid the price for his three wishes? He was hung from Avendesora and nearly died. Bearing that in mind, I see the matter of giving up the eye is in exchange (whether voluntary or forced remains to be seen) for taking Moiraine; it is a separate price for a separate thing, as the prophetic words make clear - "to give up half the light of the world to save the world".

 

It's an interesting thought that they might actually be using his eye as some kind of window into the world, but it does seem unlikely given that they take more than pictures from people's heads.

[Alia]

If you read the end of Matts encounter with them, the Finn state something like "It is foolish to not state a price." I kinda doubt that they hang everyone after dealing with them. And what with Matt stating that he thinks they may be seeing through his eyes- yeah. That's what he *thinks*. That is what a *character in this book thinks*. It isnt a confirmed fact yet. It is an interesting idea, yes, but not a fact. Unless I severely overlooked something.

 

As for the Warder bond, you are not allowed to channel at all when in their land. How do we know it works on them? Its logical to assume that but I dont remember seeing that. Its possible that the door burst into flames *because* Lanfear and Moiraine went through the door channeling and as punishment were stilled/limited. Lanfear recalls being held by the Finn- I believe thats in the end of the cleansing of saidin encounter. Therefore, she and Moiraine probably did not die. She may have died because, unlike Moiraine, she doesnt follow the rules. Moiraine also had the benefit of knowing what was going to happen and could then have prepared for it. She knew that she could be rescued and how it would take place and she has proven that she has the patience to wait it out. Lanfear- as has been seen- does not.

 

Just throwing that out there.

[Luckers]

Channeling is not directly stated to be forbidden in their land anywhere, though it may come under 'fire for making fire'. Moreover, we have seen that channeling does work on them, in that Rand drove them off with a sword of fire in tSR.

[RobertAlexWillis]

And what with Matt stating that he thinks they may be seeing through his eyes- yeah. That's what he *thinks*. That is what a *character in this book thinks*. It isnt a confirmed fact yet. It is an interesting idea, yes, but not a fact. Unless I severely overlooked something.

 

Well ... previous to the publication of Knife of Dreams, RJ said this:

 

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

So, since Jordan said that "at least a partial answer" was coming in the next book (Knife of Dreams), that makes Mat's explanation (in Knife of Dreams) have a little more reliability than just something that "a character in the book thinks."

[Nelal Hurcran]

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

 

This was said by Luckers in relation to Cyndane, but I think it has merit here.

 

The Finns traded what they had for something they want. Think for a minuet. If they have been locked away in an alternate reality, with absolutely no contact, other than with scheming cretins like themselves, since before the breaking, how readily would they send a person out with a "bug", so to speak, that allows them to "spy" on the real world.

 

Doesn’t explain why they would try to kill him though...   

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Doesn’t explain why they would try to kill him though... 

 

You're assuming they didn't know that Rand would cut him down in time.  I imagine that they trade with the Aelfinn for intel on their prospective customers.

[TheRedSon]

Bcxanth -

One problem though is that you're taking the position that when Mat left, or when the Doorway was melted, it broke their contact with him. However Mat's memories he was given all include death scenes, which means that the contact must remain even after the subjects of those memories left the land of the 'Finns. So that means simply leaving through the doorway doesn't snap the link. Now granted, that still leaves the melting of the doorway as being a possible way, but that seems wrong to me. I just get the feeling that all the Doorways really did is make it easy to access the Tower of Ghenji.  As long as the Tower is there in Randland though, then I think any link they have to Mat would still remain active.

 

Also, that fact that Lanfear came back as Cyndane but with far less power then she had before, implies that the incident on the docks caused Lanfear to be burnt out, and then likely therefore Moir was as well.

 

Leaving the doorway obviously doesn’t break whatever bond the finns have on people.  If that were the case they would have to ensure people return to retrieve their memories.

 

The doorways do apparently grant instant access to the Tower of Ghenji.  However, the tower’s continued presence in Randland doesn’t necessarily imply the link is still open.  For one thing, the doorway ter’angreal is always open.  We know the Tower of Ghenji is closed.  It’s possible that until it opens there is no other link between the Eelfinn and Randland.  Another possibility is that at the moment the doorway melted neither the warder bond nor the Eelfinn connection to Mat could find a way back to Randland or that, like the hypothetical rope I mentioned earlier, the melting of the doorway simply severed both regardless of other connections between the two worlds.

 

I agree it is likely that both Lanfear and Moiraine were burnt out.  I do not, however, know that this is the case.  That’s why I said “suppose.”  Since we’re discussing this though…  I always thought the warnings about channeling around ter’angreal were because there’s no way to know what might happen.  Obviously some ter’angreal are frequently used incorrectly by those with no knowledge of them and the outcome would be predictable if you know the ways that ter’angreal worked.  However, I’ve always assumed there was an element of randomness in what might happen.  Until I know otherwise I have to assume that it is possible Moiraine was not burnt out even though that doesn’t seem likely.

 

Ealdur Tinuviel -

And so Moiraine doesn't think of trying to channel to defend her life? Lanfear doesn't either? Neither realizes that music dazes them, iron can bind them, and fire can blind them?

 

Lanfear, at least, is not bound by the 3 oaths, and I'm not so sure Moir wouldn't be able to convince herself that her life was in danger.

 

I seriously doubt that Lanfear went along with anything meekly.  Although saidar should be an effective defense against the Eelfinn (since saidin is against the Aelfinn) that doesn’t mean it would be easy to escape.  If the doorway is closed how do we know Lanfear can make it back to Randland?  Actually, Lanfear apparently doesn’t escape to Randland.  I think she escaped to death and from there was given the body of Cyndane.  As for Moiraine…  I think she’s the one that chastised Rand for channeling on the other side of the Aelfinn doorway.  She may not think it is a wise course of action to channel against the finns in their own world.  She also knows something about her possible rescue.  Death was an option for Lanfear’s escape.  Barring the possibility that Moiraine is a darkfriend (unlikely) or made a deal with the Dark One in finnland (doubtful) it is not a path she could take back to Randland in time to see her cause through.

 

Luckers -

Ok, but how are the Finns managing to contain a channeler as strong as Moiraine? Or Lanfear, for that matter, who must surely have known who and what they are, as well as prospective methods of escape. And lets not forget that both women had their own angreal (Unless Moiraine managed to get the bracelet away from Lanfear completely, in which case she has two).

 

We know that a) Channeling works against the Finns, and b) they don't have any method to deaden the ability. So how are they holding Moiraine?

 

I don’t know how the finns might have held Lanfear if she wasn’t burnt out.  I also don’t know how Lanfear could escape with the doorway destroyed unless she can escape through the Tower of Ghenji.  I don’t think Moiraine is all that concerned with orchestrating her own escape since she believes Mat and Thom will do it for her.  She may even have a motive for sticking around in finnland.  There is a lot about Moiraine we don’t know including what three true answers the Aelfinn gave to her.

 

Luckers -

The issue is that Mat's Finn memories are in full colour--by which i mean they come with the full range of human emotions, including sight from two eyes, sound from two ears, and... i presume, physical sensations and smells as well.

 

I agree that Mat loosing an eye will mostly likely result from him intentionally removing it/giving it up/sacrificing it, but to stop the Finns percieving through his senses... i don't know... it seems unlikely.

 

This is harder to counter.  I agree Mat’s memories are full memories and not simply the view from one eye.  I still think removing the eye will in some way free him of the finns.  Perhaps it will hurt them.  Perhaps it will only limit their vision through their link.  I suppose it’s even possible that the link is connected to all of him through his eye.

 

I suppose that Mat may sacrifice the eye to pay for a second bargain he makes with them (freeing Moiraine perhaps) or in some way honor his previous agreement.  It may be they want the eye because, being denied the full link, they can have some of Mat’s experiences through it but not his full experience.  Another possibility is that Matt thinks removing the eye will remove their link but he’s wrong or only partially correct.  I don’t buy that one as much because I think Mat is going to get the better of them this time ensuring that he is, in fact, the master trickster.

 

Child of Lir -

Surely Mat has already paid the price for his three wishes? He was hung from Avendesora and nearly died. Bearing that in mind, I see the matter of giving up the eye is in exchange (whether voluntary or forced remains to be seen) for taking Moiraine; it is a separate price for a separate thing, as the prophetic words make clear - "to give up half the light of the world to save the world".

 

It may indeed be a second bargain.  It may also fulfill the original bargain in some way that we, not being finns ourselves, do not understand.  I think Rand may have actually prevented Mat from paying their price in full also…  More on that later.

 

Alia -

If you read the end of Matts encounter with them, the Finn state something like "It is foolish to not state a price." I kinda doubt that they hang everyone after dealing with them. And what with Matt stating that he thinks they may be seeing through his eyes- yeah. That's what he *thinks*. That is what a *character in this book thinks*. It isnt a confirmed fact yet. It is an interesting idea, yes, but not a fact. Unless I severely overlooked something.

 

Of course they don’t hang everyone after dealing with them.  They’d run out of customers.  Besides, we know they don’t because we know several (all?) of the people they dealt with have memories residing in Mat’s head that happened after meeting with them.  Mat hung because Mat didn’t name a price.  I imagine few have been so foolish when dealing with them.

 

As to confirmed facts…  I didn’t say it was a fact they have been seeing through his eyes.  I said it was a fact that Mat thinks that they are.

 

Nelal Hurcran -

Doesn’t explain why they would try to kill him though…

 

They’re experiencing human lives through those that deal with them.  I imagine one of the experiences they treasure, perhaps the one they treasure most, is death.  Why wait a month for him to die on a battle field or a year for him to fall off his horse or 60 years for him to die of old age in his sleep?  They might have thought he was a rather cheeky fellow and just cut to the point they wanted most.  Who knows what truely motivates the Eelfinn?

 

 

 

 

[Majsju]

And what with Matt stating that he thinks they may be seeing through his eyes- yeah. That's what he *thinks*. That is what a *character in this book thinks*. It isnt a confirmed fact yet. It is an interesting idea, yes, but not a fact. Unless I severely overlooked something.

 

Well ... previous to the publication of Knife of Dreams, RJ said this:

 

Week 12 Question: You stated in another interview that Mat's memories came from adventurers who traveled through the ter'angreal. However several of Mat's memories end with the adventurer dying. Since adventurers probably didn't go through the ter'angreal after they died, how could the 'Finns have obtained these memories?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: A good question. I was wondering when someone would ask that. I expected it as soon as Mat started revealing those old memories. At least a partial answer will be coming up in the next main sequence book, so I guess you could say this is a RAFO. But I will say that if I said those adventurers all entered through the two ter'angreal, I misspoke. A good many entered through the Tower of Ghenjei, which was more widely known in earlier years, if never exactly a household name.

 

So, since Jordan said that "at least a partial answer" was coming in the next book (Knife of Dreams), that makes Mat's explanation (in Knife of Dreams) have a little more reliability than just something that "a character in the book thinks."

 

Well, to be nitpicky, we get an answer to how Mat could get all those memories. That does not necessarily mean Mat got the same connection, though that seems to be the most likely cause.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It wouldn't be too far of a leap to assume that Lanfear knew about the Tower of Ghenjei. And if it contains an entrance, it must also contain an exit, or else Mat and Co will find themselves stuck in Finnland with mo way out.

 

Plus, Lanfear attempting to escape does indicate that she must have known enough about the Tower of Ghenjei to know she could get out if she escaped-otherwise, her attempted escape would be pointless (unless she actually intended to die, and while I think that might have been Plan B, I don't think she would have chosen to lose her body).

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well, to be nitpicky, we get an answer to how Mat could get all those memories. That does not necessarily mean Mat got the same connection, though that seems to be the most likely cause.

 

lol ... You're right, Maj, that was pretty nitpicky.  Although you do have to wonder why RJ phrased what was coming in KoD as a "partial answer".  There may well be more to it.

[dmanmiller34]

I belive that Lanfear and Morianne were both severed upon entry into the door. Its happened with other similar Ter angreals before and that explains he power loss. I also feel that while inside she made a poor deal with the finns and was payed with her life. And has since been respun. Morianne has witnessed this and chose not to make the same mistake. I belive that she is still in negiations for her price of her deal. She was a Trained noble much less an aes sedai. She knows how to spin words and plus she has all the patinece in the world. I belive that Mat will find her still trying to hash out her deal with them and will foolishly say some old two rivers saying about eyes and they will say Done and he will have to pay with his eye for her.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

As his been pointed out previously, I doubt they would exactly be in favor with the Finns after destroying the ter'angreal doorway to their world, so I don't think they got wishes, though I do agree that they were stilled.

 

Lanfear says she was held by the Finns. This indicates that they held her prisoner, probably along with Moiraine. I doubt Moiraine has been bargaining for her price for a full year, though some might say times flows differently. But, as I said, I don't think they entered on terms proper to negotiate.

 

I don't think anyone has brought this up yet, and I want to know what you guys think about this, but has it occured to anyone that when Rand channeled he broke an ages-old agreement established by the Aes Sedai and Finns, and that they no longer had to hold up their end of the bargain by the time Moir and Lanfear got there?

[Gentled Ben]

That hadn't occurred to me, and I think that's a good (and interesting) possibility, Ealdur.