Tel'aran'rhiod

[keith_rogers_irl]

If only 3 things are constant in every possible/alternate world, Thr Creator, The Dark one and Tel'aran'rhiod.... Then why don't you run into your alternate self whilst Dreamwalking. I mean, it stands to reason that alternate versions of yourself would also be Dreamwalking. Just something that popped into my head last night whilst reading over the Big White Book.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's probably not impossible, although of course your doppleganger would be slightly different from you.  Its just not something that RJ has chosen to explore.

 

Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of every world, but the reflections don't necessarily run together naturally.  By which I mean, for you to run into your alternate twin, one of you would probably have to be actively looking for the other.

 

Also, other worlds have varying degrees of "reality" based on their likelihood of existing ... there are indications that the world of the story (our world) is somewhat more real than the others, so "our" Tel'aran'rhiod may be the most "real" version.

 

This is all waaaaay out there into speculation though ... I can't claim any authority for any of that.

[Luckers]

To be fair, RJ has touched on the interactions between Dreamers and the dreams of another world. Egwene describes them at one stage, stating that she chooses to avoid them for their strangeness.

[Darth_Andrea]

Lets not forget to take into account that not ever version of a person will have the same abilitys. Not all the alternate versions of Egwene will be able to dream or even channel for that matter. So fewer of the other versions of her will be out there to run into. It's also very likely that other versions of a person who can dream can't enter Tel`aran`rhiod while another version of the same person is in the dream.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[TheRedSon]

I always assumed the other worlds were so different from the real one that there weren't many in which the same person even existed.  In the alternate world we have the most experience with there seem to be no people in existence anymore.  Seeing as how there aren't many people that can intentionally enter tel'aran'rhiod the chances of them bumping into each other might be as high as being struck by lightning and of running into themselves...  It might not happen in a million years.

[Graendals favourite]

I think, perhaps, even if many of you were in the same place in tel'aran'rhiod at the same time, you would not see or feel each other, you would not exist to each other. You would all be in T'a'r, but you would still be non-existent to each other. Using a portal stone to enter the physical world of another you is a different thing. The heroes of the horn, too, are unnoticeable to people except for Birgitte whom the Wheel wove straight out.

[hapazard]

^ Well, no... As I recall the Heroes of the Horn chose themselves to remain hidden and not to meddle in other's business. Wasn’t it why Birgitte was torn out of TAR by Mogheiden? She helped Elayne.

[Graendals favourite]

It may be a the heroes can appear to ordinary people, but normally they don't. Hopper did not see or hear Birgitte when Perrin talked to her, and someone only glimpsed Gaidal Cain. Anyway, the heroes obviously can see the people of this possibility, but otherwise they coexists as if the other people do not exist. It is reasonable that people from different possibilities cannot see each other. So I think anyway.  ;)

 

Moghedien took Birgitte out of T'a'r, but the Wheel weaves Moghedien too. I can't see it as the DO's intention that Birgitte be taken out directly like that.

[Kura]

Well, I doubt its possible mostly because why would they need to see eachother? Or even want to?

 

Sounds really sketchy, but look at it like this. T'a'r seems to reflect the main WoT world the most, almost directly actually. Now, from how weird some of the other worlds are bound to be, if T'a'r reflected them all at once, I doubt that it would appear as it does, or even that it could even be there at all.

 

Now, knowing this and the fact that t'a'r is one of the three constants, and I'm relatively sure that the DO and the creator are in fact the same omnipotent beings as in randland, judging by I believe Verin said that if the DO broke out in one world, he would break out in all. Using this, its plausible to assume that it is in fact the same t'a'r in all of the worlds.

 

So, the question is why does t'a'r reflect the real world so much? I beleive this is because that the person who enters t'a'r expects and wants to see the reflection of his/her world, and wills all the laws of physics to be as they are in her world(or at least very closely) subconsciously, and that the reason that they do not see otherworldly versions of them self is, because even if they are in the same 'time' and 'area', they are in their own world's reflection of this time and area, and thus in a different location.

 

Of course I think its plausible that T'a'r only reflects the main world so much, because it has the highest(or so it seems) probability of existing, and t'a'r responds to that.

 

Have fun with my theories guys. ;)

[hapazard]

^^ Hm... Don’t know about that. If the wheel could influence the doings of people to that degree why would it have allowed Mogheiden to turn to the dark in the first place? Or for that matter, why allow Lanfear to open the bore??

 

I think it's safe to say that the only way the wheel (creator?) can influence the world is by causing special people (heroes of the horn, the dragon) to be spun out ( born in a normal and predictable manner) at the right time and at most grant them Ta'veren powers.

 

That said the self correction mechanism of the wheel seems to be quite strong and should be able to compensate for the unexpected loss of Birgitte from its pool of heroes. As a matter of fact we can't even be sure when Birgitte really was to have been spun out. Maybe the birth of Gaidal (I think?) was precisely an action of a self correcting mechanism?

 

[Luckers]

It's possible that TAR is larger then is realised. It's ephemeral by its very nature, and may reflect in different parts merely that part of reality that its closest too, its just our Dreamers only reach into the part that is nearest to the main world.

 

Certainly the Forsaken have shown an ability to move elsewhere in TAR than the main reflection of the world. And as Graendal's favourite points out, the Heroes manage to exist beyond the perception of those who enter TAR casually--note Hopper could not see Birgitte.

 

It seems more than possibile that multiple reflections could exist in the same place and time due to the wonky nature of TAR reality, only people cant see them easier because they see that which is closest to their world, or perhaps, that which resonates with them the most.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Tel'aran'rhiod is a reflection of every world, but the reflections don't necessarily run together naturally.  By which I mean, for you to run into your alternate twin, one of you would probably have to be actively looking for the other.

 

Right, because the part of the Dreamworld that Egwene and others explore is a reflection of their own. Since not all worlds are alike, it couldn't be a reflection of all of them at the same time, so other parts of T'A'R must exist out there, only you wouldn't be able to find them unless you were looking.

Also, other worlds have varying degrees of "reality" based on their likelihood of existing ... there are indications that the world of the story (our world) is somewhat more real than the others, so "our" Tel'aran'rhiod may be the most "real" version.

 

This is all waaaaay out there into speculation though ... I can't claim any authority for any of that.

 

The Portal Stone worlds operate like that, though they might be considered less than legitimate worlds since the Randland we know appears to be the optimum timeline (or, at least, one so close that you can't tell).

 

But Finnland, for instance, is different alltogether. It has different properties, but it isn't hazy or anything like that, which are normal properties of PSWs.

 

One could assume, it might be possible to "merge" with your doppleganger (if Lews Therin can take over Rand's body and make it look like his, then this must be a possibility). That could actually be how Isam and Luc came together (via T'A'R). After all, that is how they change into the bodies of one another, so mightn't it be possible?

 

[Child of Lir]

Luc and Isam have obviously merged in some way, both physically and at a soul level, and "Tel'aran'rhiod" does indeed seem to be the key, or the mechanism. However, as we know virtually nothing about how this worked (except that one died and the other lived), it's very hard to speculate on it.

 

A person entering "Tel'aran'rhiod" in the spirit can make their body appear as they wish, but entering in the flesh is a different matter. We know that Isam at least is there in the flesh (as Slayer) and must assume that Luc is there too in the flesh, so they seem to have been given some ability that allows them to make physical changes outside the normal parameters of operation in the World of Dreams. We also know that being there in the flesh is a thing of evil, so it seems likely that this physical merging is linked to the DO. If that were the case, then to merge with ones doppleganger would require an act of evil - the intervention of the DO Himself perhaps? I don't think it would be the act of a good person... But, if He can do it for Luc / Isam then why not for others?

[fireblade]

Could you go into a portal stone in Tel'aran'rhiod?

[Graendals favourite]

hapazard, I mean the Wheel taking action in a philosophical sense: Birgitte got ripped out of T'a'r; the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Certainly the Wheel should be able to take cope with what happened to Birgitte, but the question remains whether Moghedien's action were her own, the Wheel's weaving or the Dark One's influence. People can certainly affect their own lives, but the Wheel makes decisions too. And the Dark One influences the world.

 

 

On Luc/Isam, I theorised a little back about Ishamael's status in the early books, the Eye and the Blight, and I see how Slayer's ability to enter T'a'r would fit in. Bear with me :D. In my opinion, Ishamael's status very near the DO permitted him to escape the bore on a spiritual level, though not physically. He was able to enter Tel'aran'rhiod of a sort, and furthermore he had the ability to bring the physical world into this. This ability he had from the Dark One. The Dark One does this himself by drawing the land around Shayol Ghul, the Blight, into a world of Dreams where he can control events. Imagine a map of loose straight cloth, and then you make a tent by pulling at it at Shayol Ghul. Someshta could bring whomever he sensed needed him into the small area of the Eye, which also was a dream of sorts, a bending of reality. Now, in the Stone in tDR, Ishamael clearly came out of this dream place when Be'lal had died. I think the DO has given a similar, if weaker, ability to Slayer, so that he exists fully in T'a'r, but is able to descend out of this dream, the same as you'd do when walking out of the Blight, except that he can do it where he is. In my opinion the reason the Blight doesn't have a reflection, is because it already is a dream, though a Shadowy version. Anyway, something like this could be how Slayer can enter and exit the World of Dreams. It somehow explains Shaidar Haran's bind to Shayol Ghul, too; he grows weaker out of the Dream. I don't know if this makes any sense to anybody, this is just my thought process... :P

[hapazard]

^^^ Child of Lir: The ability to physically enter TAR actually only seems to require to be able to channel. We've seen Rand do just that in at least one occasion. The evilness of it is thus far from certain, actually the only bit of information come from the Aiel wise ones. Their motives for branding it as evil we know nothing about! It might be that you actually loose parts of yourself and gets darker, it might also be the enormous power you wield in TAR become to tempting to some. Or, perhaps cynically, the Wise One’s dreamers simply don’t want any channeler to walk around in their domain!

 

^Graendal's favourite: That’s the thing, I don't believe that the wheel actually take active part in people's lives! I see the wheel as the thing that places the stones on the board but once that’s done the stones will have to play the game themselves...

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Could you go into a portal stone in Tel'aran'rhiod?

 

It would probably be inadvisable. I imagine it would be akin to entering the Tower of Ghenjei in T'A'R, which Birgitte strongly warns against.