Birggete... What now?

[ApostleofJordan]

Yeah, um... what all is up with Birgette? If she was pulled out of TAR, then she can't be spun out again. What kind of effect will this have on the pattern and such?

 

I'm of the opinion that when the Horn is blown, she will be able to get back in.

[verby]

She will simply have to follow Mat around until he blows the Horn

[dmanmiller34]

I am of the opinion that she is still bound to the wheel. I belive that Mohegian (SP LOL) when she ripped her out just forced her to be spun in current state that she was in. I belive that when she dies she will go straight back Telahriod.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

We know for sure she's still part of the wheel because Min had all those viewings about her great deeds of the next lives and her many marriages to Gaidal (both younger and older). As to the specifics of how she'll fit back into the old pattern...no idea

[ApostleofJordan]

Ok, but obviously she can't follow Mat around, which means she would have to be called by the Horn of Valere. But because she cannot be pulled out of TAR to fight when the horn calls, so she can't be called back into TAR. For proof of this, just look at Rand. He is obviously bound to the horn, and he wasn't called by the horn because he was already out. So once you are out, they can't pull you back in.

[bcxanth]

You seem to be comfusing some things. Just because Birgette will not be there to fight as one of the dead Heroes, doesn't mean that she's no longer bound to the Horn. For instance, Gaidal was spun out after Falme, therefore he will not be there to answer the call when the Horn is blown again. He's still bound to the Horn though. What happened to Birgette did not seperate her from the Horn, and did not rip her out of the PAttern. It simply spurn her out prematurely. But I have a feeling that the Pattern needed her spun out, with all her skills and memories (for as long as those lasted), instead of being born.  The Pattern takes it all in and weaves what it needs.

[ApostleofJordan]

But you forget that Mog was linked to the DO, and the DO works against the pattern (because he is trapped by it), so maybe the pattern wasn't planning on her being ripped out.

[Pin This]

ohh but there is something else heros get bound to the horn for there couragous deeds and such so even if she was cut from the horn her deeds thats she has done since has long put her back in.

[ApostleofJordan]

What she has done so far isn't enough to bind her to the wheel again. That would require deeds far more heroic (i dont have an example, but i'm sure there are some).

[RobertAlexWillis]

What she has done so far isn't enough to bind her to the wheel again. That would require deeds far more heroic (i dont have an example, but i'm sure there are some).

 

I'm sorry, do you have a list of requirements somewhere that we don't know about?  I'd love to see it ...

 

Every indication is that Birgitte is still bound to the Wheel.  Just because Moghedien intended to rip her out for all time, does not mean Moghedien was successful.  Min's viewings are all of the future, and she saw more adventures around Birgitte than could possibly occur in one lifetime.  Birgitte is still bound to the Wheel.

 

Of course, right now, she's not bound to the Horn.  The Horn only calls dead Heroes, the ones in Tel'aran'rhiod.  So, Birgitte doesn't need to follow Mat around at all.  And she won't be called by the Horn.

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

*tears of joy* someone spelled Birgitte correctly

[drovja]

But you forget that Mog was linked to the DO, and the DO works against the pattern (because he is trapped by it), so maybe the pattern wasn't planning on her being ripped out.

Regardless of whether the Pattern planned on her being ripped out, The Wheel will just work the new way it happened into the Pattern. Somewhere, I'm not sure of the quote, Moraine is talking to Rand and says something to the effect of, whatever men intend, good or evil, the Wheel weaves the Pattern the way it wishes.

[Majsju]

Even IF Birgitte ceased being a Hero when she got ripped out (and that is a bigtime IF), being out and about during TG might provide her with enough actions to put her right back into the fold again.

 

And if she still is a Hero, her getting killed during TG would mean she could get spun out in the usual way in perfect timing to hook up with Cain again, since he is supposed to be older, and right now Cain is still leaking from both ends.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Possibly, although to be honest, Min's viewing of Birgitte's adventures that were "connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man" indicates to me that she will survive Tarmon Gai'don and meet the currently leaking, much younger but still quite ugly Gaidal Cain, and have her adventures with him, in the somewhat odd position of "older woman".  Then, next round, they'll be back to their usual order.

[Cadsuane]

Does "currently leaking" mean what I think it does? In that case, you got a chuckle.  ;D

[ApostleofJordan]

2 things...

1) I was just saying that though Birggite did do some Heroic stuff, many other people have done MORE heroic stuff, and I doubt that all those people are going to be bound to the wheel. If it was that easy, there would be alot more people coming when the horn called.

2) I'm not saying that she wouldn't be bound to the wheel any more, I'm just saying that she can't come when the horn calls!

 

also...

she was ripped out of TAR, not woven out, so I'm gonna have to assume that different rules apply to her

And what does it mean for Cain to leak from both ends? It sounds funny, sure, but, it must have another meaning.

[Majsju]

And what does it mean for Cain to leak from both ends? It sounds funny, sure, but, it must have another meaning.

 

Ever been around toddlers? ;)

[RobertAlexWillis]

Does "currently leaking" mean what I think it does? In that case, you got a chuckle.

 

I have no idea what you mean.

 

;D

[Cadsuane]

Crying/pooing/snotty/etc. "Currently leaking" is an amusingly creative way to describe that state of baby/toddlerhood.  ;D

 

 

Although, I'd rather the leaking than the endless external dialogue and asking of questions that follows it, developmentally. I'm not cut out for parenthood, I'm afraid.  :P

[Great Lord of the Dark]

i bloody think that birgette wont be able to come when that horn is blown, but i also think that she'll play inportant part in AMoL

[ApostleofJordan]

In that case, I despise those who leak.

 

Anyway, we all seem to agree that she can't come when the horn calls, but the question we argue is; WHY will she not be called back? Is it because she is no longer bound to the wheel, or only because she isn't dead? Or some crazy third option? The world may never know :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

WHY will she not be called back? Is it because she is no longer bound to the wheel, or only because she isn't dead? Or some crazy third option? The world may never know.

 

Um .... yeah we do.  Its because she's not dead, no more, no less.  The living Heroes aren't called by the Horn.  The Grave Is No Bar To My Call ... but life is.

[The Lost One]

Possibly, although to be honest, Min's viewing of Birgitte's adventures that were "connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man" indicates to me that she will survive Tarmon Gai'don and meet the currently leaking, much younger but still quite ugly Gaidal Cain, and have her adventures with him, in the somewhat odd position of "older woman".  Then, next round, they'll be back to their usual order.

 

When I read Min's viewing of Birgitte, I always thought she was seeing all of Birgitte's past lives around her.  I know Min normally sees what is to come, but since Birgitte is "who she is", and all the lives she lived, I thought that somewhat interfered with what Min would normally see.  Min was basically seeing MANY viewings of different past lives around one person. 

[TheRedSon]

Past lives, future lives...  It's all the same in the Wheel's world isn't it?

[RobertAlexWillis]

When I read Min's viewing of Birgitte, I always thought she was seeing all of Birgitte's past lives around her.

 

Sorry.  Author says otherwise.

 

Q: "Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the 7 towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

 

A: "Um, her viewings are always concerning the future."

 

-Robert Jordan, Glimmers Interview

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=117

 

Past lives, future lives...  It's all the same in the Wheel's world isn't it?

 

If Birgitte was actually ripped out in a way that severed her connection to the Wheel permanently, then no, her future lives would not be at all the same.  That would be a victory for the Shadow.