Talent for Seeing Ta'veren

[The Lost One]

Indeed, the only known ta'veren we are aware of are Lews Therin, Mabriem en Shareed (An Aes sedai and a Queen of Aramaelle (sp?) who formed the compact of the Ten Nations). Plus our three wonder kids. None of the other heroes are mentioned as possible ta'veren, and they've been around enough that you would think it would come up.

 

Besides, RJ stated that none of the female characters were ta'veren shortly after tPoD was released--Birgitte was a female character by that stage.

 

This was a quote from Luckers in another thread.  It made me think of a question. 

 

I remember when Nicola discovers she can see Ta'veren, the Aes Sedai she tells doesn't make a big deal about it.  She says something like, "you can see ta'veren, now run along child" - like its not a big deal.  And in other references, it doesn't seem that the talent for seeing a person who is ta'veren is rare. 

 

So, if there aren't that many ta'veren to see, why isn't it a BIG deal and how do they know they are able to see ta'veren?  How did they determine that they were seeing ta'veren? 

[Mardragon]

I don't think it's that it isn't a big deal so much as the Aes Sedai wasn't about to show it.  Aes Sedai emotional supresion in other words. Also bear in mind that Nicola girl was rather big for a her boots. She was arrogant enough as it is without being built up further with the Aes Sedai gushing over her 'special gift'.

[callandor]

yay verily.

 

[bcxanth]

I don't think it's that it isn't a big deal so much as the Aes Sedai wasn't about to show it.  Aes Sedai emotional supresion in other words. Also bear in mind that Nicola girl was rather big for a her boots. She was arrogant enough as it is without being built up further with the Aes Sedai gushing over her 'special gift'.

My thoughts exactly. Remember that she was the one who was supposedly coming up with new Talents every day that she was saying she had, and was totally full of herself at the potential she was told she had. The AS are big for teaching the Novices humility, and blowing off her real Talent as no bog deal is a good way of subtly taking her down a peg.

[Aiel_cory]

When Loial saw Rand for the first time i thought it sounded like a big deal when he was telling Rand about it. But wasn't Artur Hawkwing a ta'veren too?

[Seriodor]

But how could they tell that they were seeing Ta'veren. How do they know its not just them seeing someone completely useless, or thats gonna die in 7 days, or anything else for that matter. Assuming that they're Ta'Veren is a pretty far stretch.

[Aiel_cory]

But I thought Ogier can tell automaticlly if someone is ta'veren.

[Seriodor]

Well then maybe the Ogier explained to the Aes'Sedai with that ability what that meant.

[Aiel_cory]

Maybe. but can normal people who aren't Aes Sedia or Ogier see ta'veren

[Darkness Incarnated]

In the Great Hunt Siuan tells Moiraine something along the lines 'you know that seeing ta'veren is [one of] my Talent(s)' and goes on about how Rand shone like the sun etc etc. It has been asked how she knew she had that Talent, seeing if the Tower encountered a ta'veren they would at the least keep an eye on her/him, and so far we haven't seen one. Logain seems to have that Talent as well.

[Aiel_cory]

in what part does Logain show that he has the talent? If it is in book 5 or up dont tell me because i am reading book 5 right now.

[Seriodor]

Later on in the series he describes the scene when Rand was looking at him from the wall of the palace in caemelyn in book one, only reverse and says that rand was glowing.

[Aiel_cory]

oh ok thanks.

[The Dragon Reborn]

But how could they tell that they were seeing Ta'veren. How do they know its not just them seeing someone completely useless, or thats gonna die in 7 days, or anything else for that matter. Assuming that they're Ta'Veren is a pretty far stretch.

How can Min simply understand what some of her viewings mean, or Elayne make Ter'angreal, or Avi just know what certain Ter'angreal do? That's why they are called Talents....well at least in Avi's and Elayne's cases...

[Seriodor]

Because it's part of the plot? Whatever those are feelings, this is a glow.

[TheRedSon]

I think the question here is how do they know that glow means the person they're looking at is ta'veren?  No one currently alive would have ever seen ta'veren before bumping into one of the three currently running around unless there have been more ta'veren than we know about, so how do they all know what what they're seeing means?  As far as we know there hasn't been one before the Two Rivers boys since Artur Hawkwing and that's been more than a thousand years now.

 

Min's and Avi's gifts come with the instinct of simply knowing what they see/feel is true. 

[Aiel_cory]

 

 

Min's and Avi's gifts come with the instinct of simply knowing what they see/feel is true. 

 

how do you know that it is not just the same about the talent for seeing ta'veren that is like saying how did Aes Sedai first know that when they see a woman glow that means they are channeling.

[Darth_Andrea]

As far as Min's talent goes, I think it actually has something to do with the abilitys that those snake people have. It dose seem simulare in a few aspects from the available descriptions.

 

 

Darth_Andrea

[TheRedSon]

I don't.  I don't remember it being explained that way though.  With Min and Avi it is specifically explained that way.  I'm making assumptions, but I think they make sense from what I know.

[Aiel_cory]

Kind of off topic but how come those snake people couldnt let three ta'veren in without destroying their whole place? And what is that place anyway is it another world?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry, Darth_Andrea, I can definitely say there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability.

 

To quote:

 

Week 1 Question: Are the Eelfinn limited in their power to grant wishes? To what degree can they affect the outside world? Also, is there any relation between what the Aelfinn do and Min's ability?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfin. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

 

No, there is no connection between what the Aelfinn do and what Min does.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 , Questions from February 1st, 2005 - July 19th, 2005, relevant parts bolded.

 

[The Lost One]

I think the question here is how do they know that glow means the person they're looking at is ta'veren?  No one currently alive would have ever seen ta'veren before..... 

 

This is my point exactly.  How do some Aes Sedai know they have the talent for seeing ta'veren, if there were not ta'vern to be seen?  Thank you TheRedSon, you stated my question better than I did. 

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

If some little kid who had never heard of ta'veren has the Talent and sees a ta'veren, what would she think about it?

 

I doubt the word ta'veren will pop into her head, but maybe she will know that here is a person who will affect the shape of the pattern. Or change the world.

[Luckers]

I've always thought that Siuan's knowledge of her ability to see ta'veren implied that they were more common than we realise. Indeed, there is nothing to dispute this--we know that ta'veren vary in strength, and also only remain ta'veren as long as they are needed... its entirely possible that the pattern causes weaker ta'veren as a part of its day to day maintenence.

 

I'm not suggesting they are common, mind... just that for Siuan to know what her ability was, and indeed for Aes sedai to have such casual knowledge of the nature of the talent, then ta'veren must appear more than once every thousand years.

 

Remember, the ones i listed in that quote were cited in the text as famous, not nessasarily as the only ta'veren ever.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, Logain provides a good explanation for that.

 

When he saw Rand glowing brightly as he was brought through Caemlyn, he knew that the glow meant that Rand would shake the world.  The word ta'veren never came into his explanation, but we, the readers, being familiar with the concept of ta'veren, know that this is what Logain is seeing.  (LoC ch 30)

 

So, some understanding of the meaning does come with seeing the glow, and with seeing its intensity.  Someone familiar with the concept of ta'veren, like Siuan, who has read records about others with that Talent, would know what she is seeing, even if she's only seen one ta'veren ... even a weak one ... in her whole life.

 

And yes, there certainly are other ta'veren than the world-shaking ones like Rand and Hawkwing.  Otherwise statements about their ta'veren-ness would not be made in relative terms, like this: "Artur Hawkwing was the most strongly ta'veren of whom any writings remain." (Moiraine to Perrin, TDR ch 8 )

 

From statements like that we can infer that 1) there were other ta'veren, about whom some writings remain, and 2) that there is a signifigant enough range known that comparisons can be made.

 

So, the knowledge of what degree of effect the person will have on the Pattern comes with the Talent.  Knowing that the word "ta'veren" applies depends on your education. 

 

If the hypothetical person saw someone glowing, the person would know what Logain knew: that the glowing person would have a huge effect on the world.  If the person then learned about ta'veren, he or she might put 2 and 2 together.