Talent for Seeing Ta'veren

[Cadsuane]

Got it.  :)

 

It does make sense that there should be some medium level ta'veren on the range between Rand and our imagined Wedding Causers.

[Kura]

I am aware that the second paragraph contradicts the first one...  You are bearing witness to my thought process.  Perhaps I should apologize. 

 

However, these minor ta'veren (if they exist) are probably never noticed.  In the first comment I was referring to more influential ta'veren.  It stands to reason that if there are ta'veren for the sole purpose of causing something as mundane as you and I to have a conversation on the internet and there are three absolutely world shaking ta'veren in our story and at least one other still widely known in the histories that there would also be medium ta'veren that would have been both ta'veren long enough to have been noticed and strong enough to have caused important events.  Those are the ones we've never seen mention of.  There ought to at least be a few in living memory of some AS at least.

 

The ground shaking ta'veren (rand, hawking, and good ol' LTT) are obviously powerful and have effected at least one continent directly or indirectly (referring to hawking sending his armies over to seanchan here). Though I had a bit of an idea, could mat and perrin be these 'medium ta'veren'? Yes, they are certainly strong, but how many times has it described them as being leaves in a whirlpool next to rand? Or are they large, and Rand/LTT/Hawking are XXL?

 

Just thought I'd throw the idea of Mat/Perrin being medium ta'veren out there, like I said, mostly because of how much they are dwarfed by Rand.

[TheRedSon]

I am aware that the second paragraph contradicts the first one...  You are bearing witness to my thought process.  Perhaps I should apologize. 

 

However, these minor ta'veren (if they exist) are probably never noticed.  In the first comment I was referring to more influential ta'veren.  It stands to reason that if there are ta'veren for the sole purpose of causing something as mundane as you and I to have a conversation on the internet and there are three absolutely world shaking ta'veren in our story and at least one other still widely known in the histories that there would also be medium ta'veren that would have been both ta'veren long enough to have been noticed and strong enough to have caused important events.  Those are the ones we've never seen mention of.  There ought to at least be a few in living memory of some AS at least.

 

The ground shaking ta'veren (rand, hawking, and good ol' LTT) are obviously powerful and have effected at least one continent directly or indirectly (referring to hawking sending his armies over to seanchan here). Though I had a bit of an idea, could mat and perrin be these 'medium ta'veren'? Yes, they are certainly strong, but how many times has it described them as being leaves in a whirlpool next to rand? Or are they large, and Rand/LTT/Hawking are XXL?

 

Just thought I'd throw the idea of Mat/Perrin being medium ta'veren out there, like I said, mostly because of how much they are dwarfed by Rand.

 

I think Mat and Perrin are more than simply medium ta'veren.  I have nothing to base it on but I believe they are as strong in their ta'verenness as Hawkwing.  However, if they are these mysterious (fictional?) medium ta'veren then wouldn't that make my point?  They have both seriously changed the course of events in randland on their own.  Where are the other ta'veren that have done that in the histories, stories and thoughts of the AS? 

 

I suppose there may be Ogier living today that talked to Ogier that saw Hawkwing.  Their generations are very long after all.  It still doesn't seem very plausable for so many humans to understand this talent with only four (documented for our benefit) ta'veren.  Based on what we know of those four ta'veren we should know something of other ta'veren (especially the one, or more, Siuan apparently saw).

[Kura]

I think Mat and Perrin are more than simply medium ta'veren.  I have nothing to base it on but I believe they are as strong in their ta'verenness as Hawkwing.  However, if they are these mysterious (fictional?) medium ta'veren then wouldn't that make my point?  They have both seriously changed the course of events in randland on their own.  Where are the other ta'veren that have done that in the histories, stories and thoughts of the AS? 

 

Well, it would benefit your point, and thats really what I was trying to do. RJ seems to have really wide ranges on any of these powers he puts in WoT. Look at the power, the difference between the wondergirls and the former queen of andor who's name is escaping me right now. >_>;

[ShiftedInsights]

Just a few random thoughts on this topic, first, in reference to people like Domon and their prospective taveren status;  I think that they are absolutely normal people, but that first chance encounter with one or more of the three taveren changed the course of their lives so profoundly that they was swept up in the bending effect of taveren power.  This has happened alot during the series, where characters that seemingly have a minor or singular importance to Rand, Mat, or Perrin suddenly turn up later in the game with their status in the world severely raised or lowered from where they were once they met.  For example Aludra, who begins as some vagabond thats about to be murdered, and who ends up being the key to modern gunpowder warfare via running into Mat again later in Luca's carnival.  Luca also shows up again and again after meeting with the taveren, and his carnival grows very large in the interim.  Citing this evidence, I believe that just short term contact with any of the three, particularly if that contact provides a service of some kind to aid the will of the pattern, can be enough to make a vagrant into a rich man, or a ship capitan into the Blood (as in Eaganin's (sp?)case), and these occurances happen so they can later come to the aid of the three taveren, and therefore the pattern, again when needed. 

      Also, the idea of mini taveren for the purpose of "reality cleanup" seems very sound, particularly when free will comes into play in Randland, as the Pattern can balance out the actions of free will though probability shifting on a small scale.  For example, someone could be taveren long enough to cause someone else to turn left instead of right, setting them on their proper destiny in respect to the pattern when their free will would have effected the Age Lace if they turned the way they planned on going, kinda like memory cleanup on a universal scale.  Feel free to pick apart and criticize these ideas to your hearts content everyone.       

[Guest silver89]

A possible example of a minor Ta'veren is King Laman of Cairhein. Without him cutting down the TREE to make his throne The Aiel wouldn't have left the waste and Rand wouldn't have been born on the slopes of Dragonmount.Just a Theory.

[TheRedSon]

Just a few random thoughts on this topic, first, in reference to people like Domon and their prospective taveren status;  I think that they are absolutely normal people, but that first chance encounter with one or more of the three taveren changed the course of their lives so profoundly that they was swept up in the bending effect of taveren power.  This has happened alot during the series, where characters that seemingly have a minor or singular importance to Rand, Mat, or Perrin suddenly turn up later in the game with their status in the world severely raised or lowered from where they were once they met.      

 

This is a good point.  If Ta'veren are threads around which the pattern shapes itself for a time then other threads weave themselves around ta'veren.  The threads closest to our three ta'veren are Egwene, Nynaeave, Elayne, Min, Aviendha, Faile, Loial, Thom, Lan, Juilan, Tuon...  You get the point.  As the threads of their lives are woven immediately around Rand's, Mat's and Perrin's the threads of the lives they touch are also pulled.  Egwene's thread pulls with it that of all the threads in the White Tower now.  Loial's thread pulls at all the Ogier.

 

These people are not ta'veren.  They have natural connections to the life threads they bring with them (Elayne with Andor and Cairhien, Lan with the Malkieri).  The ta'veren are the threads they have been woven around and through their natural connections the people they touch have become part of the pattern's grand design as well.  So ta'veren pull at people they have never met indirectly through their pull on those they have.

[Luckers]

I don't think ta'veren ever cause specifically one event. I believe their purpose is more the stir the world, like, the Pattern senses that things are moving in the wrong direction, so it creates a ta'veren somewhere, and their presense destabalizes the status quo a little (or a lot, depedning on the need) and from that new social fluidity change can occur.

 

They are the cause, but i doubt they ever had a specific effect, like the birth of a specific child, or the death of a specific woman. That implies too much intelligent design on behalf of the Wheel, which we know is not directly sentient, but has more of a 'fuzzy logic system' as RJ terms it.

 

Creating ta'veren is more like adding water to the mix, making it more sludgy so that it can be molded or redirected with greater ease. Therefore looking for ta'veren is not so much a function of looking at major events, but at looking for periods or moments were previously unsustainable social change occurs. Mabriem En Shareed brought together the ten nations in to an alliance that spread peace accross Randland. Artur Hawkwing united Randland from a bunch of waring nations into something that worked together cohesively. I also have no doubt that at least one of the Aes Sedai involved in the formation of the Tower was probably a ta'veren, though it needn't have been Lucine (the first Amyrlin)... it merely need be someone who can stir things enough that people are forced to concider why they do what they do, and to enable them to change.

 

So, not so much Chaos Theory, or the sequence of unsuggested effects, but merely... stirring things up so that change might occur.

[RobertAlexWillis]

While we don't have enough evidence of other ta'veren to say for certain, I would guess from what we see of Rand that it can be both a general "stirring up" influence, and a specifically directed influence, depending on what the Pattern needs at the time.  In Falme, the Pattern was practically pulling Rand around by the scruff of his neck.  On his solo journey to Tear, alot of seemingly unrelated things were happening.

 

I think this goes back to what Rand tried to share with Mat about fighting the Pattern.  Prior to, and partway through, the events leading up to and in Falme, Rand had been struggling against the Pattern's design; he did not want to be the Dragon.  So, the Pattern basically made him.

 

When he was going to Tear, he was doing what the Pattern's fuzzy logic wanted, so the effect went back to a more neutral "stirring up" effect.

[Luckers]

To be honest, i don't think the pattern is specifically the cause of events at Falme. I believe that a cross between the effects of the Horn on reality and the subsequent hightened influence of Rand's ta'verenism is at fault.

 

I honestly do not see the capacity for such precision and intention within the fuzzy logic of the wheel.

[RobertAlexWillis]

To be honest, i don't think the pattern is specifically the cause of events at Falme. I believe that a cross between the effects of the Horn on reality and the subsequent hightened influence of Rand's ta'verenism is at fault.

 

I meant the events that led up to the Horn being blown.  Rand feeling compelled to go first one way, then the other.  HE sure felt like something was dragging him around ...

 

To quote a few instances:

 

"She's in trouble," Rand muttered.  Egwene.  There was an odd feeling in his head, as if the pieces of his life were in danger.  Egwene was one piece, one thread of the cord that made his life, but there were others, and he could feel them threatened.  Down there, in Falme.  And if any of those threads was destroyed, his life would never be complete, the way it was meant to be.  He did not understand it, but the feeling was sure and certain.

 

(TGH ch 46)

 

"I'm going back," Rand said.  "I should never have left." Somehow, that did not sound exactly right in his own ears; it did not feel right in his head. "I have to go back.  Now."  That sounded better.  "Egwene is still there, remember.  With one of those collars around her neck."

 

and, a few lines down,

 

Rand shook his head.  Threads.  Duties.  He felt as if he were about to explode like a firework.  Light, what's happening to me?

 

(Both from TGH ch 47)

 

Rand went through the last half of chapter 46 To Come Out of the Shadow, and the first half of chapter 47 The Grave is No Bar to My Call like he was following a carefully orchestrated script in his head, and the result was that Mat had no choice but to blow the Horn, and Rand had no choice but to proclaim himself the Dragon.

 

I can't recall any other situation in which Rand acts that way, or describes feeling like that.  He isn't channeling, so why does he feel "as if he were about to explode like a firework."?  He had no Warder bond with any of the girls, so how did he feel Egwene's thread in danger?  Not to mention that he felt Elayne's, Min's, and Nynaeve's, when he didn't even know they were there or know that they were the ones he was feeling in danger.  And all of his internal metaphors are in terms of "threads". 

 

Sure seems like the Pattern taking a direct hand to me.  Between those feelings in Rand, and the later visible overhead effects in Falme, and elsewhere, seem to also indicate the Pattern's direct interest in those events; we've seen nothing like that since, either.  In the later events, was the Horn involved?  Of course.  But I've said elsewhere, I feel pretty sure that the Horn was a tool of the Pattern's design at Falme.

 

Its rare, to be sure, but I think the Pattern does intervene directly on very rare occasions.  And it seems unlikely, to me, that ta'veren has nothing to do with the mechanism for that.

[Luckers]

Fair enough, that didn't occur to me.