Who is Mazrim Taim

[Groningen]

My guess is he is a darkfriend (seems pretty obvious, but love to see robert jordan twist it so to make him not a DF) a very important one. Mu guess is he is even a new forsaken. So not one of the old ones or reborn old ones. No, the first of many to survive this battle and be locked up with the dark one after the battle, only to emerge when the Dragon will be reborn once more...

[Thorum]

Why can't he be one of the female Forsaken? That way, he could be Graendael or ... .

There's even a male Forsaken left: Osan'gar

[hapazard]

first, Groningen....

He the forsaken won't be locked up after this battle 'couse there won't be a seal between the dark one and this world. It will be as before the AoL when the dark one still was to tutch the world. There will be no bore to seal anymore!

 

second, thorum

 

as he clearly uses saidan ha can't be female!

 

(if we rule out that he is one of the new reborn ones, wich he clearly can't be since we know of him from before their deaths!)

[Kadere]

Do you mean Aran'gar? Osan'gar got balefired in WH, he ain't coming back.

[Guest Majsju]

Do you mean Aran'gar? Osan'gar got balefired in WH' date=' he ain't coming back.[/quote']

 

No he wasn't. It was a good ol' fireball, not balefire.

 

But since it's the second time Aginor managed to get himself killed, I'm quite sure the DO is starting to get tired of giving him new bodies...

 

As for Aran'gar, she's been keeping herself quite busy with the rebel Aes Sedai, so no way she would have time to play Taim at the same time.

[dawntreader3]

For the longest time I thought that Taim was Damondred (sp?). But since Rj said he is not, then I think perhaps he is either:

 

1. A NEW Damondred, a sort of mirror of the real Damondred. Taim is to Rand as Damondred was to Lews Therin.

 

2. Mazrim Taim is not actually a bad guy...perhaps he is just a very very pragmatic person. He has a lot of selfish behavior, but hey...right now it's in his self interest to serve Rand.

 

3. Mazrim Taim is a Dark Friend (But here it gets tricky. If he is second only to Rand in the One Power then he is certainly no puppy of the Forsaken's. Taim is as powerful as most of the Forsaken for sure.)

 

4. Taim is a good guy and just has a rather unpleasant personality.

[Guest cwestervelt]

My guess is he is a darkfriend (seems pretty obvious' date=' but love to see robert jordan twist it so to make him not a DF) a very important one. Mu guess is he is even a new forsaken. So not one of the old ones or reborn old ones. No, the first of many to survive this battle and be locked up with the dark one after the battle, only to emerge when the Dragon will be reborn once more...[/quote']

 

Personally, I don't buy into Taim being a Darkfriend. I just see him as someone who is looking for personal gain and doesn't care who gets hurt. That makes it easy for the Darkfriends around him to use him.

 

The thing with Taim is that he is too obviously a Darkfriend. Very few people in the books have been what they appeared. Actions and statements are very misleading. The only guarantee of allegience has been a person thoughts within a PoV.

[Jedimuppet]

My guess is he is a darkfriend (seems pretty obvious' date=' but love to see robert jordan twist it so to make him not a DF) a very important one. Mu guess is he is even a new forsaken. So not one of the old ones or reborn old ones. No, the first of many to survive this battle and be locked up with the dark one after the battle, only to emerge when the Dragon will be reborn once more...[/quote']

 

Personally, I don't buy into Taim being a Darkfriend. I just see him as someone who is looking for personal gain and doesn't care who gets hurt. That makes it easy for the Darkfriends around him to use him.

 

The thing with Taim is that he is too obviously a Darkfriend. Very few people in the books have been what they appeared. Actions and statements are very misleading. The only guarantee of allegience has been a person thoughts within a PoV.

 

I think you should be careful with any line of reasoning that comes out, "so in conclusiong, because all the evidence points to him being a darkfriend, I conclude that he is not".

 

I can understand why you think RJ has employed such tactics, but I think he's also been obvious, too.

 

I think he's a DF.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

My guess is he is a darkfriend (seems pretty obvious' date=' but love to see robert jordan twist it so to make him not a DF) a very important one. Mu guess is he is even a new forsaken. So not one of the old ones or reborn old ones. No, the first of many to survive this battle and be locked up with the dark one after the battle, only to emerge when the Dragon will be reborn once more...[/quote']

 

Personally, I don't buy into Taim being a Darkfriend. I just see him as someone who is looking for personal gain and doesn't care who gets hurt. That makes it easy for the Darkfriends around him to use him.

 

The thing with Taim is that he is too obviously a Darkfriend. Very few people in the books have been what they appeared. Actions and statements are very misleading. The only guarantee of allegience has been a person thoughts within a PoV.

 

I think you should be careful with any line of reasoning that comes out, "so in conclusiong, because all the evidence points to him being a darkfriend, I conclude that he is not".

 

I can understand why you think RJ has employed such tactics, but I think he's also been obvious, too.

 

I think he's a DF.

J

 

I'm not concluding that he isn't just because there is so much evidence that says he is, just saying that the abundance, especially as it is all second and third hand perspective is indicative of a red herring.

 

In the scope of the books, the charge of Darkfriend is about the most serious that can be made against someone. Because of the seriousness of the charge, it requires significant, concrete evidence, to support it. We get a lot of information to make him look guilty, but it is all hearsay.

[Jedimuppet]

Well, I don't know. Typically, even the bad non-darkfriend people (Elaida, Valda, Bornhald) rationalize their bad actions to some higher good. We do not see Taim doing that. He's murderous and evil for his own greed.

 

Have we actually seen any evil (besides Fain, SL, the ways) that does not owe alleigance to the DO?

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

Well' date=' I don't know. Typically, even the bad non-darkfriend people (Elaida, Valda, Bornhald) rationalize their bad actions to some higher good. We do not see Taim doing that. He's murderous and evil for his own greed.

 

Have we actually seen any evil (besides Fain, SL, the ways) that does not owe alleigance to the DO?

J[/quote']

 

Yes, we have seen evil besides Fain and SL that don't owe allegience to the DO. The mentality of large portion of Children of the Light, especially Questioners, (Hand of the Light?), are, for all intents and purposes, evil. Their initial desire to do good was taken to such an extreme that they now commit one atrocity after the other in the fight against the Darkone. They have an attitude that is much like that which destroyed Aridhol and turned it into Shadar Logoth. Massema and his followers are another example of evil doesn't hold allegience to the Shadow.

 

It's true that we don't see Taim do any reationalization of his acts. However, even Elaida's rationalization is just to keep her own greed and ambition from appearing evil to herself. We have no real evidence that Taim is guilty of anything more than Elaida, Valda and Bornhold. The last two especially would have done anything they could to put a knife in Rand al'Thor's back, but they aren't considered Darkfriends.

 

We also don't, at least that I have come across pre KoD, get any information that comes from him and isn't filtered through another person. We only see Taim as other's see him, not as he sees himself. Even the BWB doesn't say more than that he was a false dragon. He's a complete wild card, and that's rather curious considering his apparent position as a relatively major and influential character.

[Jedimuppet]

Well' date=' I don't know. Typically, even the bad non-darkfriend people (Elaida, Valda, Bornhald) rationalize their bad actions to some higher good. We do not see Taim doing that. He's murderous and evil for his own greed.

 

Have we actually seen any evil (besides Fain, SL, the ways) that does not owe alleigance to the DO?

J[/quote']

 

Yes, we have seen evil besides Fain and SL that don't owe allegience to the DO. The mentality of large portion of Children of the Light, especially Questioners, (Hand of the Light?), are, for all intents and purposes, evil. Their initial desire to do good was taken to such an extreme that they now commit one atrocity after the other in the fight against the Darkone. They have an attitude that is much like that which destroyed Aridhol and turned it into Shadar Logoth. Massema and his followers are another example of evil doesn't hold allegience to the Shadow.

 

It's true that we don't see Taim do any reationalization of his acts. However, even Elaida's rationalization is just to keep her own greed and ambition from appearing evil to herself. We have no real evidence that Taim is guilty of anything more than Elaida, Valda and Bornhold. The last two especially would have done anything they could to put a knife in Rand al'Thor's back, but they aren't considered Darkfriends.

 

We also don't, at least that I have come across pre KoD, get any information that comes from him and isn't filtered through another person. We only see Taim as other's see him, not as he sees himself. Even the BWB doesn't say more than that he was a false dragon. He's a complete wild card, and that's rather curious considering his apparent position as a relatively major and influential character.

 

You're missing my point, I think. I'm suggesting that even if their actions are evil (and they are), these characters attempting to rationalize shows at least a thin alleigance to good, as they see it. It is true that it is only rationalization, and that it's pretty much evil, but they're warped and twisted in their ideals, not evil for its own sake.

 

I think the lack of rationalization indicates evil for its own sake, rather than bringing rand to the last battle, healing the tower, etc.

 

Taim doesn't even pay a little lip service to good, and I think that's indicative of darkfriend behavior.

J

[Kadere]

I still believe that the end of KoD were we see the use of the red and the black, and the symbol of a fist clutching lightning bolts is eviedence of a very powerful darkfriend (even possibly a Forsaken). We've seen this symbol and these colors drawn to both Moridin and Sammael, so I believe they are eviedence of someone evil in control.

 

It could be that Taim is under orders from a Forsaken or darkfriend, but from the sheer power he seems to hold over the BT, I don't believe anyone is controlling him.

[Ilyena]

Another Possibility (tho this I really don't buy) what if Taim is Moridin's disguise?

[Kadere]

Taim existed before Moridin's birth, and when Rand sees Moridin in ACoS and KoD he doesn't see Taim, he sees Moridin. Unless Moridin's got some CRAZY powers, Taim is not going to be Moridin.

[Kipple Snacks]

Hello everyone, this is my first post here, and I hope I can provide some help to this, I've been lurking every once in a while. I've read through book 10 so far, on my second reading of book 9 and will get to 11 soon enough.

 

There is one thing in particular about right after Dumai's Well, is Taim's reluctance to give Rand Dashiva. In Dashiva's stead, Taim wants to give Rand one of his own more loyal Asha'man.

 

""Dashiva is gaining strength in the power rapidly, but his head is in the clouds as often as not. Even when it isn't, he is not entirely always there. Maybe he's just a day dreamer, maybe the taint on saidin is touching his brain already. Better for you to choose Torval or Rochaid or -"" (COS 96)"

 

As well, mentioned before, Taim seemed rather surprised that Dashiva was one of the ones that tried to kill Rand. Kisman and the rest were ordered by Taim, Demandred, and Moridin to kill Rand. This provides evidence that at least Taim is working independently of the forsaken, if not a "new" forsaken himself.

 

Taim's power and ambition seem as though they would be acceptable to the Dark One as being worthy to be granted immunity from the taint, as the forsaken are. However, Rand has been able to "see" the cord connecting the forsaken to the DO on several occations, and has seen no such thing with Taim, though he was not actively looking for it.

 

Personally, from this evidence, I say Taim is antiRand, but not nessecerily proDO.

[Kadere]

Well, I'll agree that Taim is not a Forsaken (unless a new one), but I fail to see hard eviedence that he's not a darkfriend. I'm not saying that just by wanting to kill Rand you're a darkfriend, but Taim is one messed up dude, and as you'll see in KoD he's got some serious connections to Moridin (or so it appears). He is most certainly anti-Rand, but I don't think there's enough evidence to say he is or is not a darkfriend (or worse). But from the end of KoD I'm willing to bet a lot of money that he's leaning toward the DO.

[rd2000]

Rand never saw a "chord" on Dashiva either, and Dashiva was definately a forsaken and was around Rand a lot, lot more than Taim has been.

[Inara]

he never saw dashiva in tel'aran'rihood. which is where he saw asmo's

not sure about the one at the end of tEotW though, anyone read it more recently than me...or just has a better memory?

[Kadere]

he's in tel'aran'rihod when he sees Ishameal's cord, but when he returns and sees Agnoir's he's not.

[Aldazar]

the white cord attached to Aginor in tEotW is aginors link to the Eye and the black cord attached to isahameal in the same book is his link to the DO's true power.

 

when rand sees asmos taint protection its a jumble of black lines across his whole body and he was only able to see those while he was in the skimming world thing as soon as he got to rhuidean he cldnt see them anymore.

[Luckers]

Indeed, RJ has actually said as much. The black threads are only percievable in another state, like the skimming world, or tel'aran'rhiod.

 

Aginors white thread was different. It was his connection to the eye, and likely only percievable to a saidin channeler.