The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Luckers]

Hey guys, for those of you with the patience to read this, I was attempting at an even handed summary of the theories surrounding Cyndane; but since i have very strong views on this i was wondering whether people could have a read through and see what they think. Also, if I've missed anything, or if anything is unclear I'd appreciate knowing that as well.

 

The Mysteries of Cyndane

 

Is Cyndane Lanfear?

 

The short answer is, yes. There was some confusion over this based around Demandred’s comment that the Forsaken no longer thought Cyndane to be Lanfear based on Graendal’s assertion that Cyndane was weaker than Lanfear had been. However the similarities between Cyndane and Lanfear essentially prove that to be wrong, from the way she strives for height to the way she refers to Rand as Lews Therin and speaks so knowledgeably of the Age of Legends. The most telling piece of evidence, however, comes at the end of Winter’s Heart.

 

So, [Rand] had found a woman to use the Access Key for him. [Cyndane] would have faced the Great Lord—faced the Creator!—with him. She would have shared power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love. Spurned her.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 641]

 

[Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible. No woman could be stronger.

[WH: 35 – With the Choedan Kal – 649]

 

The combination of these quote make it certain that Cyndane and Lanfear were the same woman. No other woman ever offered to use the Choedan Kal to challenge the Creator and the Dark One with Rand, no other Forsaken loved Rand, no other Forsaken had been held by the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn, and if Cyndane had not been Lanfear prior, than Lanfear would have been stronger than she was, which goes against the quote. Essentially, Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

 

How did Lanfear end up in her new body?

 

Basically, she died and was recycled by the Dark One. Some people initially suggested that the Finns granted Lanfear’s new body based on a ‘wish’ by either her, or Moiraine (the theories varied as to the purpose and effect of this ‘wish’), but RJ settled this question at DragonCon 2005.

 

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the power. I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed?

 

RJ: No… No to both.

 

So, no, it wasn’t the Finns.

 

 

How did Lanfear lose her strength?

 

1. The Cyndane body was not as strong as Lanfear’s in the One Power.

 

This was suggested often when Cyndane first appeared weaker, and at first glance it does hold some merit in that we know it takes the Shadow some time to find suitable bodies to contain their disenfranchised Chosen. However, if this were the case, how was it that Moridin, Osan’gar and most importantly Aran’gar retained their strength and connection to the Source? If Demandred’s thoughts on Cyndane—specifically that her reduced strength made it unlikely that she was Lanfear—then we know that the other Recycled Forsaken strength’s were all exactly the same as what they had been before. Moreover, if this aspect of channeling were a function of the body and not the soul, than how is it possible that Aran’gar still channeled saidin?

 

2. The Dark One purposefully reduced Cyndane’s strength as punishment.

 

We know that Cyndane was in a lot of trouble when she was transmigrated. Attacking Rand against orders, going off on her own, and so on and so forth… so the suggestion was that the decline in power resulted from the Dark One’s anger. Now, even if you accept that the Dark One could do this—and there is no evidence of anything of the sort—this makes very little sense. For starters, Cyndane was immediately bound by a cour’souvra. This ensured complete control of Cyndane by the Shadow.

 

This is where it begins to make no sense. The Dark One has shown that he has a high appreciation of the value of his Chosen’s strength and proficiency at channeling. RJ has even commented on how little he trusts Third Age channelers, so here is the question: Why would the Dark One hamstring himself by weakening Cyndane? At this stage he has total control of Cyndane; she is effectively nothing more than a tool, and it makes no sense for the Dark One to limit the effectiveness of that tool, especially when he has already punished her by trapping her soul.

 

Some people argue that the Dark One is so alien that normal conceptions of common sense don’t apply; and they are partially correct. Yet when it comes to his agenda’s, and his beliefs (that Second Age channelers are more useful) the Dark One is not a fool. There is a pattern of logic that he does indeed follow, and under that pattern it makes no sense for him to have reduced Cyndane’s strength.

 

3. Could the Finns have altered Lanfear’s strength?

 

There have been a number of theories about Finn involvement, including Lanfear making a badly worded wish, her paying for a wish with some of her strength, of Moiraine asking for, and taking Lanfear’s excess strength, but the fact is that all of these are unlikely.

 

For starters, despite the perception of the Finns as magical creatures akin to genies, bound to give three wishes as an innate part of their being, we know that this is not true. The Finns offer a service, a skill that they have, in exchange for something they desire. The nature of the relationship between humanity and the Finns is very much that of a trade agreement—and we know this for a fact. The agreement with humans is something that was reached, not expected on behalf of humans; and based on the Eelfinn we meet who is wearing human skin, the agreement is not something they hold to like some magical law. If broken, they react.

 

Then we have Moiraine and Lanfear. Their arrival not only severs a source of trade that the Finns doubtlessly find highly valuable, but if what occurred on this side of the doorway is any indication then they also caused a rather vicious fire, which as a source of light is expressly forbidden in the treaty. If someone kicked in a merchants door, bringing with them something expressly illegal—and dangerous—then that merchant is unlikely to offer to serve that individual.

 

Beyond that, we also have evidence of the Finns have a dislike for the Shadow—a dislike so strong that they punish people severely who even ask questions that might relate to the Shadow, and here we have Lanfear who is as close to the Shadow made flesh as it is possible to get.

 

And indeed, we even have direct proof of the Finns unhappiness in the fact that Lanfear and Moiraine were both held against there will, and Lanfear later ended up dead. Essentially it is unlikely to the edge of absurdity to expect the Finns to offer Lanfear or Moiraine any wishes.

 

4. Cyndane was severed from the Source, and healed by a woman.

 

This one is a little more convoluted, so I will handle it in parts.

 

 

The Circumstances in Cairhein

 

When we last saw Lanfear she stood channeling through an angreal that Moiraine clawed out of her hands as they both fell through a ter’angreal which subsequently exploded. From the beginning of the series we have been warned time and again of the dangers of channeling near ter’angreal. Add to that the fight over the angreal and the transportation to a different reality, and the likelihood that they weren’t both burned out becomes slim.

 

Beyond that, at that exact moment Lan’s bond to Moiraine was snapped, and as far as we’ve seen only two things cause a bond to snap—death and the Aes Sedai being severed from the True Source. Since we know Moiraine did not die (as of Knife of Dreams), than that leaves the possibility of being severed.

 

Now, as a side point, some suggest that the bond was severed when the passage between the two realities was severed, and yet there is still a passage between the real world, and the realm of the Finns in existence. Still, there is nothing to directly preclude this as a possibility.

 

A final piece of evidence can be found in the fact that the Finns managed to hold Moiraine and Lanfear (which we know they did between Moiraine’s letter in KoD and Lanfear’s comment in Winter’s Heart). We also know that channeling works against the Finns as a deterent since Rand manages to hold the Finn of with his fiery sword. So, the question is this: If Moiraine and Lanfear weren’t severed, how did the Finns manage to hold them? Both possessed their own angreal, and both would have been at least somewhat aware of how to deal with the Finn’s (fire, music, iron). Indeed, it’s likely Lanfear even knew of the Tower of Ghenjei, and the way out of Finnland. So how did the Finns contain these two powerful channelers?

 

Some suggest the Finns have the ability to break weaves of the Power, as with Mat’s ter’angreal. Yet the presence of the Aes Sedai symbol small as the foxes eye on that ter’angreal suggest it was made by the Aes Sedai for the Finns, not the other way round. Moreover, Cyndane’s shock upon encountering a similar ter’angreal when she was fighting Alivia essentially prove that she had never encountered anything of the sort prior to that event.

 

 

How did Cyndane Come to be Healed?

 

So, we know that after being held for a time, Lanfear died and was recycled into a new body. From Aran’gar we know that a person’s channeling state follows the soul through the transmigration progress, so if Lanfear were severed from the source, then she would have returned to life still severed from the source.

 

Some claim this would not be the case, citing Robert Jordan’s comment that if a person is severed from the Source they will be whole and complete when they are next reborn, but it should be remembered that the transmigration process is not rebirth, again, as proved by Aran’gar.

 

So, if Cyndane were returned to life severed, how would the Shadow react? At this stage Moghedian had just been brought to Shayol Goul, and even if she didn’t inform the Shadow of Nynaeve’s discovery, the fact that the Shadow knew to rescue her show that they are keeping close eyes on the Rebel Aes Sedai, and the likelihood that such a marvel as a way to heal being severed had not reached Moridin’s ears is very slim.

 

Now this was prior to Finn’s discovery, so the Shadow had no way of knowing that a man would heal a woman to full strength, so the obvious and logical option for the Shadow, rather than leave one of the Forsaken unable to channel, would be to summon a Black Sister to heal Cyndane… for even a weakened Chosen is better than a severed Chosen.

 

From there the function of the healing is easy. A dream message to Aran’gar and a Black ‘Yellow’ Sister sent to Shayol Goul by gateway. It would not have even aroused any suspicion, because as Suine observes, at any one time up to twenty sisters are off elsewhere in the world attending to other matters.

 

 

The Discrepancies Between the Loss of Strength

 

The most vehement argument against Cyndane having been severed, and healed by a woman is that Suine and Leane lost such a large amount of strength, whilst Cyndane only lost a little. But is everything what it appears to be?

 

Firstly, how much did Cyndane lose? We know that she is stronger than Graendal, and that even if Graendal’s beliefs about her own strengths are self-delusions, as RJ suggests most of the Forsaken’s beliefs about their own strength comparative to others are, we still know that Graendal is very strong—indeed, without the angreal Graendal was still stronger than Someryn, who had never encountered anyone stronger than she amongst the thousands of Aiel Wise Ones who could channel.

 

For very rough perception, lets say that Lanfear was a hundred. If Graendal is an 85 or an 80, Lanfear could have lost 10 to 15 units of strength, and still be stronger than Graendal. At 85 there would not be many women the world over who topped Graendal. But is this comparable to what Suine and Leane lost?

 

Now, the first thing that we must remember in dealing with Suine and Leane is that there situation is distorted by the Aes Sedai social hierarchy. People speak of them having lost ‘half their strength’ citing their own comments as evidence, but lets actually have a look at what they say.

 

“If Nynaeve couldn’t heal us all the way the first time, then maybe she can take us to two-thirds what we were. Or even half. Even that would be better than now, but still here many would be as strong, and a good many stronger.”

[LoC: 30 – To Heal Again – 617]

 

Now, I draw your attention first of all to the fact that when they speak of returning to two thirds, or half of what they were, they are not speaking of their over all strength, but rather of the strength they lost. Effectively their current strength is zero, and their top strength is a hundred. The two-thirds and half are referring to the gap in between their current strength and their old strength.

 

So, the comment itself is not readily presenting us with an qualitative position on their strength, as people assume. In face, all that we know is that their current strength is bellow the average strength of Aes Sedai in Salidar, and that that average stands roughly half way between their current strength, and their full strength.

 

So, what can we state absolutely about their new strength? Well, as of CoT we can state that their strength is above the cut off strength for becoming Aes Sedai.

 

Akkarin was not strong in the Power, little more than Suine, if at all, but only one other of the six, Therva, a slim woman in yellow slashed riding skirts and a cloak edged in yellow, stood even as high as she.

[CoT: 19 – Surprises – 459]

 

So we have two women around Suine’s strength, and four who are weaker. Add Daigian and Elise Worrel and of the twenty-two Aes Sedai we have strength related comments about, six are weaker than Suine.

 

Why is this significant? Because if Suine and Leane are still within the range of Aes Sedai strength than a) they did not lose more than half their strength, and b) their strength attains an immediate judgment within the social hierarchy in reference to their old strength and position.

 

Lets take at what that hierarchy and judgment reflects. So, the social hierarchy represents a very limited range of strengths. According to RJ [insert proper quote] the Aes Sedai cut off point is at the 36.2 percentile which establishes the bottom limit for the social range, whilst the upper limit is established by Suine’s previous strength, where Romanda and Lelaine now sit (note: I exclude Cadsuane and the Wonder Girls because they are outliers; the former is thought dead and the latter aren’t truly included in the Aes Sedai range by most Aes Sedai due to the way they were raised).

 

Again, on a very rough chart lets say for the purpose of consideration that Suine’s former strength was 60, that means the social hierarchy range includes less than 30% of the range of channeling strengths. Therefore, even a minute loss of strength would result in a fairly large decrease of social standing. If Suine and Leane lost the same degree of strength as Lanfear (10 to 15 units) than yes, they would experience the loss of social standing stated. Beyond that, keeping in mind that RJ has stated that the Aes Sedai strength distribution is not even it also allows for the average to be roughly half way between their new and old strengths.

 

At this stage many people raise the fact that Suine was unable to lift Gareth Bryne, thereby proving what a massive decrease in strength she suffered, yet in that exact sentence Suine goes on to admit that lifting things with the power were amongst the hardest things that could be done. Furthermore, at the end of CoT we see Leane weave Mask of Mirrors, create Cuendillar and disguise her ability all at the same time proving that whatever strength these women lost, they are far from being ineffective channelers.

 

 

Conclusion

 

Cyndane is Lanfear, and it seems almost certain at this stage that she was severed and healed by a woman, though it remains possible that it was an action on behalf of the Dark One.

 

 

Where is Cyndane Now?

 

The scarcity of information on Cyndane makes it hard to know what she is up to, except that she is being controlled fairly closely by Moridin. In Winter’s Heart just prior to the Cleansing we see Cyndane in the presence of a normal darkfriend who is stating that he will obey her if she is indeed Forsaken. Other than that the only time we’ve seen what Cyndane is up to is when she went to bring in Graendal with Moghedien. The curiosity in this is that in both these events Cyndane seems to be taking charge of someone, or at the very least bringing that person under Moridin’s charge. My guess therefore is that Cyndane (and Moghedien) is acting under Moridin’s direction in gathering the Shadow in preparation for Tarmon Gai’don.

 

Some have suggested that Sylvase (the High Seat of House Carean) is Cyndane. Certainly the description matches; short with silver-blonde hair and an icy demeanor. Additionally House Carean functioned to facilitate the ongoing civil war in Andor, which certainly fits with the Shadows demand for chaos amongst the nations of the world. In the end though, we simply don’t have enough information to guess where Cyndane is, or what she might be doing.

 

[Lune]

You know, before Moiraine's letter in KoD, I always thought that Cyndane was like an amalgam of Moiraine and Lanfear. She's 'short' (like Moiraine) but bosomy and beautiful like Lanfear. And her strength in the power has been diminished. :/ Maybe when they find Moiraine in the tower she'll be tall like Lanfear >_>

[Vambram]

Oh my. Now that would be interestingly weird, eh?

 

But onto the meat of Lucker's OP, you put out a lot of good stuff there about Lanfear/Cyndane, and I think that I do agree with your final conclusion about her, and how her connection to the Source was restored.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I don't really have anything to add to that.  Luckers is a smart person, and has nailed this one right smack dab on the head.

[oosquaiaddict]

Ive always wondered why so much attention was paid to how the healing of stilling is cross gendered, bit no one ever considers the source of the stilling. In the case of people who have regained full strength (Logain and Sashalle), they were both healed(nynaeve and Flinn) and stilled(by Aes Sedai and Rand) by the opposite sex. In the case of Siuan and Leane they were stilled(Aes Sedai) and healed(Nynaeve) by the same sex. Couldnt it be the way the wound was caused, as easily as the how the wound was healed, that causes the differences in how channeling stregnth is regained?

 

I doubt this affects any of the points made by Luckers above.

[Luckers]

RJ said that the issue is with the healing, not who did the severing. A woman healed by a woman will not be fully restored, nor will a man by a man. But a woman by a man, or a man by a woman will be fully restored.

 

 

[Child of Lir]

Thanks for the post Luckers.

 

I would add three things, two of them caveats.

 

Firstly, as we know that death does not sever a person from the One Power, her death and resurrection must be considered separately from her (apparant) stilling. When and how the death took place, either in "this" world or the other one, her resurrection took place in "this" world. Even if the DO can reach into the other world, how likely is it that the Finn have a freshly dead body handy for the DO to use? So two questions arise: why did she die - a punishment? An accident? In an escape attempt?; and, why was she stilled - again, the same questions could be asked.

 

Secondly (first caveat), we assume that her reduction in power is a result of stilling, and this is the most likely explanation, but there is one other option to consider. In the same way that she shielded Asmodean, a shield could have been placed on her. Now for this to be undetected it would have to be, at the very least, inverted, if not formed from the True Power. Of course, this begs the question of why? A punishment would be the obvious answer, but she's already being mindtrapped so what good what that serve? As I say, this is a far less likely scenario, but until we have all the facts from the horse's mouth, then it is an option that remains very slightly open.

 

Thirdly (second caveat), as Luckers also says it is very unlikely that, having destroyed the "ter'angreal" doorway, and given that both Lanfear and Moiraine were held prisoner, the Finns granted them anything. However, consider what happened when both women entered together; did they both exit on the other side together? We know that Moiraine, Rand and Mat were through the other doorway together and, despite there only appearing to be one room in that place, they never saw each other. This strongly suggests that there are folds within folds in these worlds, which may mean that once crossing the threshold, Moiraine and Lanfear were no longer together. Therefore, we cannot assume that both women received the same treatment. Until we hear Moiraine's account of what happened, or Cyndane's, then this question remains unanswered; in turn, so does the question of how the women and Finn interacted - what the nature of their relationship was. Did they try to ask for anything?

[Luckers]

Firstly, as we know that death does not sever a person from the One Power, her death and resurrection must be considered separately from her (apparant) stilling. When and how the death took place, either in "this" world or the other one, her resurrection took place in "this" world. Even if the DO can reach into the other world, how likely is it that the Finn have a freshly dead body handy for the DO to use? So two questions arise: why did she die - a punishment? An accident? In an escape attempt?; and, why was she stilled - again, the same questions could be asked.

 

I'm not sure i understand. She was not stilled intentionally, but as a side effect of her's and Moiraine's interaction with the ter'angreal. Her death came much later, and we don't have much evidence as to whether she died at the hands of the Finns... my guess is that it was that, though she may have commited suicide in a rather macabre escape... actually, i might add that as a small side note.

 

On the matter of where she was resurected; it would have been at Shayol Goul, so i very much agree with that.

 

Secondly (first caveat), we assume that her reduction in power is a result of stilling, and this is the most likely explanation, but there is one other option to consider. In the same way that she shielded Asmodean, a shield could have been placed on her. Now for this to be undetected it would have to be, at the very least, inverted, if not formed from the True Power. Of course, this begs the question of why? A punishment would be the obvious answer, but she's already being mindtrapped so what good what that serve? As I say, this is a far less likely scenario, but until we have all the facts from the horse's mouth, then it is an option that remains very slightly open.

 

That all comes under the heading of being punished by the Dark One, and suffers from the same logical fallacy, but i will add the possibility of it being a non-permenant reduction in the form of a shield to cover all bases. :)

 

Thirdly (second caveat), as Luckers also says it is very unlikely that, having destroyed the "ter'angreal" doorway, and given that both Lanfear and Moiraine were held prisoner, the Finns granted them anything. However, consider what happened when both women entered together; did they both exit on the other side together? We know that Moiraine, Rand and Mat were through the other doorway together and, despite there only appearing to be one room in that place, they never saw each other. This strongly suggests that there are folds within folds in these worlds, which may mean that once crossing the threshold, Moiraine and Lanfear were no longer together. Therefore, we cannot assume that both women received the same treatment. Until we hear Moiraine's account of what happened, or Cyndane's, then this question remains unanswered; in turn, so does the question of how the women and Finn interacted - what the nature of their relationship was. Did they try to ask for anything?

 

I concidered raising this, and might yet, though i am worried about making the whole thing convaluted.

 

The answer to your question is that yes, they must have ended up together on the other side... at least provided that RJ is respecting the laws of physics, which given his background in physics im guessing he is. The fact is that molecular structures the enter at the same time end up together... Rand, Mat, Moiraine, they all had their clothes, their possesions and so forth on the other side. Moiraine and Lanfear entered at the same time, if they ended up seperated then they might as well end up in their constiuant atomic structures, which thanks to Moiraine's letter and Cyndane's thoughts we know did not happen.

 

Thanks for this, and don't take my return comments as any sort of defensiveness... this post is exactly what i wanted when i posted the whole thing. Keep it up. :)

[Guest cwestervelt]

I've said before, and I have yet to be convince otherwise, that Cyndane is reduced in power as a result of the body she was placed in.  Nothing about her fits the severed/healed pattern.

 

First, Moridin, by the time Nynaeve and Elayne are fleeing Ebou Dar to use the bowl, still can't believe they were able to do heal Logain, Suian and Leane, even imperfectly.  Second, she did not loose any where near enough strength for that to have happened.  Siuan and Leane are weeker than virtually all Aes Sedai now.  They lost the vast majority of their strength and could no longer do things that didn't even require thinking about before.  Then, we have to ask the question of who severed her?  I don't buy the argument that her and Moiraine were burned out when the Ter'angreal doorway melted.  It's just a convenient explanation to hold up the weak argument that she must have been severed to explain her loss of ability.  Lanfear and Moiraine were already through the Doorway when it melted.  It was just their way back that couldn't handle the strain of their fight.  Unfortunately, I can't offer proof until after Mat, Thom and Noal rescue Moiraine from the Tower of Ghenji and she is shown to be at her full channeling ability.  Then there is also the problem that being reborn into a new body should repair the damage done by Stilling.  Nyaneve proved that there is something that can be healed.  To me, that implies there is a physical connection.  The new body would have had that still in place.

 

The fact that Moridin, Aginor and Balthamel are roughly the same strength as before doesn't really mean anything.  Moridin has been using the True Power exclusively and we don't know much about that.  The limits on what you can do may be as simple as how much the Dark One lets you do.  For Aginor and Balthamel, as long as they were close to their original strength, the other male Foresaken wouldn't notice the difference.  Also, we have seen, in later books, that powerful channelers aren't as hard to find as previously thought.  Sure, we haven't seen any as strong as what Lanfear was, but that actually supports the fact that the new body couldn't handle her former ability.  Based on the prevailence of stronger channelers we are seeing from outlying areas, if the Trolloc's raided the more remote Borderland villages, the chances of finding suitable strong bodies for Moridin, Aginor and Balthamel go up considerably.

 

 

[The Lost One]

Wow - very well laid out.

 

I don't think Cyndane/Lanfear was stilled and healed.  If that were the case, I do think she would be a LOT less powerful than she is as Cyndane.  I do think that she is lower in the power as a result of a punishment and/or a concern by the dark one.  I beleive he reduced her power when she was put in the new body. 

 

She has made comments that she could challenge the dark one.  And she could be considered a loose cannon at times.  I know that the fact she is mind trapped should be sufficient punishment, but I think the dark one wanted to FIRMLY put her in her place and make sure she fully understood that betrayal would not be an option.  I also think that the dark one was a little worried about being betrayed by her, especially with her love for Lews. 

 

This is just my opinion.  I do enjoy reading all the different ideas.   

[Child of Lir]

Coming back to Luckers' reply to my first point, I would agree that it's quite possible that Lanfear was stilled in the fall through the "ter'angreal", but should we then assume that the same thing happened to Moiraine? If so, she's not going to be Healed for quite some time as no-one with Mat (or Perrin for that matter) knows that stilling can be Healed.

 

We don't yet have any facts about how Lanfear's power reduction occurred, but lots of pointers and theories, so I'm keeping an open mind on that matter; and also on how, why and when her death occurred.... we'll know soon though hopefully.

 

And don't worry, I didn't feel you were being defensive!  :)

[Darkness Incarnated]

One other thing to consider. Sure it makes no sense for the Dark One to reduce Lanfear/Cyndane in strength, given that women as strong as she are all but non-existant. But. In her reduced state, Cyndane is still one of the most powerful female channeler in the world, at least as strong or stronger than Alivia and Sharina (my opinion, but this is for another thread).

 

The question is this. Does her reduced state really hamper her? The answer I would give is no. I believe she still could give Rand or Moridin their run for the money if it came to that. Alivia is perhaps her strength, but she (Alivia) never managed to kill Cyndane with an angreal, despite the fact that Alivia had to be close to Rand/Moridin's strength.

 

Does the loss say that Lanfear/Cyndane is now incapable of doing good work for the Shadow? No. Had she fallen below, lets say, Semirhage or Moghedien, then I would say that the Dark One is stupid (assuming he is the origin of the loss, of course). But in her present state, Cyndane can still kick almost anyone's butt, and I can see the Dark One possibly reducing her strength, just as a lesson, considering Lanfear was quite proud in her power.

[Child of Lir]

She certainly deserves to be punished for plotting to overthrow the DO, so although I'm keeping an open mind, I do feel that the punishment element must play some part that we don't yet fully understand.

[Guest cwestervelt]

She certainly deserves to be punished for plotting to overthrow the DO, so although I'm keeping an open mind, I do feel that the punishment element must play some part that we don't yet fully understand.

 

That's the whole point of the Mind Trap.  She is basically on an unbreakable probation.  Doing more than that is pointless.

[Gentled Ben]

cwestervelt wrote:

For Aginor and Balthamel, as long as they were close to their original strength, the other male Foresaken wouldn't notice the difference. 

 

Perhaps not, but Aginor and Balthamel, who were both unhappy with their new bodies, undoubtably would have noticed, and if a decrease in channeling strength, even a tiny one, had been part of the bargain, we certainly would have heard of it from them. We have no indication that they are anything other than their exact former strengths though, nor is there anything to indicate that strength is a function of the body, rather than the soul. If it's a function of the soul, however, then Luckers' theory makes sense, and while that's convenient for Luckers, it's convenience to his theory doesn't preclude it from being true. If strength is a funciton of the body as you purport, however, it raises more questions than it answers, and for that reason, it seems to me the less-likely one, as I'm a fan of Occam's Razor.

[BrainFireBob]

Aran'gar is proof against strength being body-dependent.

 

More, if channelling was body dependent, they'd have to regain their strength all over again if they lost it.

 

Rand himself has the same strength, as well as the same channelling aptitudes, as Lews Therin- with absolutely no relation.

 

Most logical is that the "actual" requirements for the Dark One to reincarnatea Forsaken are: Within the window, reasonably young and healthy body, and having the channelling gene.

[Jeff from MI]

I think that Lanfear DID gain a significant amount of strength through dealings with the Finns and could not retain that "deal" when she was brought back by the DO.  Moraine will reenter Randland with a similar deal.  The foreshadowing is there.  Why else would RJ mention that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns, then have Moraine in an IDENTICAL situation?

 

If she was stilled and healed by a woman, who did it?  The healing of stilling was unknown in the age of legends so it is doubtful that any of the forsaken know of it unless there were some black ajah that learned it from Nyneve.

 

I think the Finn scenario is much stronger and supported by significant foreshadowing by RJ.

[Mr Ares]

I think that Lanfear DID gain a significant amount of strength through dealings with the Finns and could not retain that "deal" when she was brought back by the DO.  Moraine will reenter Randland with a similar deal.  The foreshadowing is there.  Why else would RJ mention that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns, then have Moraine in an IDENTICAL situation?

 

If she was stilled and healed by a woman, who did it?  The healing of stilling was unknown in the age of legends so it is doubtful that any of the forsaken know of it unless there were some black ajah that learned it from Nynaeve.

 

I think the Finn scenario is much stronger and supported by significant foreshadowing by RJ.

Lanfear lost strength. We have no indication of her ever gaining strength from the Finn, but if you have a quote to disprove that, please post. And a BA sister doing the Healing is the theory.

[Majsju]

Lanfear having gained strength through dealing with the finns makes more sense than her being stilled and then healed by a woman. First of all, if we compare with Siuan and Leane, Cyndane appears to have lost way less strength. We don't know exactly how much weaker she is, but she is stronger than Graendal, and Lanfear can not have been That much stronger.

 

And then, stilling should not be an issue, since Lanfear died. When the DO gave her a new body, an eventual stilling should have been nullified, since stilling effects the bodys ability, not the souls.

 

As for Moiraine getting the same deal, no way. She is not exactly in a position to make a bargain, being prisoner and so, bursting into the finns realm not only breaking the doorway, but also bringing a forsaken into their home. She won't get any bargain.

And even if she for some freak reason would be allowed to make a bargain, I can not see Moiraine from out of nowhere turn so selfish that she asks for something that benefits herself.

[Gentled Ben]

You know, that's the other alternative that seems most plausible. I read it elsewhere on this forum a month or so ago, where someone posited that Lanfear, in the AoL, wished for strength and beauty, and that by dying, she lost both. What's curious to me is that Cyndane reflects upon her strength prior to being held by the Finns, rather than prior to dying, which makes me wonder if the Finns don't have a greater role in the lessening of her strength than simply hastening her death in some manner.

[Luckers]

Lanfear having gained strength through dealing with the finns makes more sense than her being stilled and then healed by a woman. First of all, if we compare with Siuan and Leane, Cyndane appears to have lost way less strength. We don't know exactly how much weaker she is, but she is stronger than Graendal, and Lanfear can not have been That much stronger.

 

I'm sorry, but if we compare Cyndane with Suine and Leane then they lost around the same amount of strength. Lanfear needn't have been 'THAT' much stronger than Graendal either, since Suine and Leane did not lose much strength. They lost a hell of a lot of social standing, of course, but since they still stand above the Aes Sedai cut off point (indeed, at least several steps above), then im sorry but you're completely wrong. As I addressed in my initial post, with complete quotes and proper progression.

 

And then, stilling should not be an issue, since Lanfear died. When the DO gave her a new body, an eventual stilling should have been nullified, since stilling effects the bodys ability, not the souls.

 

Again, as i addressed, transmigration is not a function of rebirth and therefore there is no evidence that the stilling should have been in any way nullified. Aran'gar more than proves the preservation of the channeling state accross the tranmigratory devide.

 

Lanfear having had her strength given to her by the Finns is utterly unsupported by the text, and completely unnessary.

 

Why else would RJ mention that Lanfear gained strength while being held by the Finns, then have Moraine in an IDENTICAL situation?

 

I'm sorry, where did RJ mention this?

 

If she was stilled and healed by a woman, who did it?  The healing of stilling was unknown in the age of legends so it is doubtful that any of the forsaken know of it unless there were some black ajah that learned it from Nynaeve.

 

Again, as i completely covered in the first post of this thread, the healing would have almost certainly been done by a Black Sister. Read that post.

 

First, Moridin, by the time Nynaeve and Elayne are fleeing Ebou Dar to use the bowl, still can't believe they were able to do heal Logain, Suian and Leane, even imperfectly.

 

Actually mate, Moridin is shocked by the fact that these primitives thought up a way of doing something people from the Age of Legends had thought impossible. No where does he state that he conciders it a lie. The only think this proves is that he is aware of the method, which supports me, not you.

 

Second, she did not loose any where near enough strength for that to have happened.  Siuan and Leane are weeker than virtually all Aes Sedai now.  They lost the vast majority of their strength and could no longer do things that didn't even require thinking about before.

 

Actually mate, they lost a vast majority of their social standing. Their decline in strength is judged solely within the range of the Aes Sedai range of strengths, which means above the 36.2 percentile, and therefore their decline does not even exceed half of their strength, much less a 'vast majority'. Following on from that, the only thing that they can't do which they could do before is lift a person with the power, which in the very sentence that that inability is revealed it is added that this is amongst the very hardest things to do with the power.

 

Then, we have to ask the question of who severed her?

 

Why on earth would we have to ask that? No one severed her.

 

I don't buy the argument that her and Moiraine were burned out when the Ter'angreal doorway melted.  It's just a convenient explanation to hold up the weak argument that she must have been severed to explain her loss of ability

 

Ummm thats nice for you, but its not a convenient explanation, its an explanation period. Its been stressed time and again the danger of channeling near a ter'angreal... and you think the argument that falling through a dimensional gateway ter'angreal whilst engaged in a fierce dual, and having that ter'angreal explose is some sort of fanciful explanation? I'm sorry mate, but thats silly.

 

Lanfear and Moiraine were already through the Doorway when it melted.

 

It was their passage through the doorway that caused it to melt, so of course it melted after. Cause follows effect Cwestervelt. I fail to see the relevance. It wasn't the melting of the door that severed them, it was the stress the confliction between their use of the power had with the function of the ter'angreal that both severed them and destroyed the ter'angreal.

 

Then there is also the problem that being reborn into a new body should repair the damage done by Stilling.  Nyaneve proved that there is something that can be healed.  To me, that implies there is a physical connection.  The new body would have had that still in place.

 

Aran'gar proves that the function of channeling is a function of the soul. Unless you think that there are whole bundles of women walking around able to channel saidin?

 

For Aginor and Balthamel, as long as they were close to their original strength, the other male Foresaken wouldn't notice the difference.  Also, we have seen, in later books, that powerful channelers aren't as hard to find as previously thought.

 

Women who channel saidin, however, are.

 

Based on the prevailence of stronger channelers we are seeing from outlying areas, if the Trolloc's raided the more remote Borderland villages, the chances of finding suitable strong bodies for Moridin, Aginor and Balthamel go up considerably.

 

So, it is your position that there are heaps of women who can channel saidin, but only in the Borderlands?

 

What's curious to me is that Cyndane reflects upon her strength prior to being held by the Finns, rather than prior to dying, which makes me wonder if the Finns don't have a greater role in the lessening of her strength than simply hastening her death in some manner.

 

All that really shows is that Cyndane lost her ability to channel prior to the Finn's holding her. Indeed, she doesn't say that Alivia was stronger than she had been prior to the Finn's lessening her strength, she says prior to the Finns, period.

[Darkness Incarnated]

When I read those comments at first I thought they were talking about a loss in the Power, but now I think differently.

Strength in the Power determines social standing, right? It's just that Siuan--with a few others--stood at the top of the strength hierarchy (Cady is out), and for them to fall that down, it could be because they lost a substantial amount of Power. But now if I understand Lucker's theory well, it does make sense. What I had forgotten is that, though Siuan for example stood at the top, she is merely a bit above average strength when compared to, say, Egwene. So for them to fall below most Aes Sedai and yet still be allowed to be AS means a limited amount lost in strength, not the vast one I had imagined.

 

On a side note, Luckers, why do you call Siuan Suine?

[Majsju]

Siuan and leane didn't lose much strength? You have got to be smoking something funny.

 

Leaving that nonsese aside, you seem tomake a very bizarre assumption, that Lanfear and Siuan/Leane lost an equalk amount of "points" on your homemade scale. That's ridicilous.

Try losing similar percentage, that's the most logical thing.

 

And to illustrate so you perhaps  might understand, lets say that Lanfear had 100 powerpoints. Lets then say that Siuan and Leane had 50 powerpoints, just to make the illustration more clear.

 

Siuan and Leane admittedly lost at least 50%, which would mean they were down to 25 powerpoints. Lanfear would logically also lose about 50%, putting her at 50 poerpoints, ie the same strength Siuan and Leane used to be. Which would mean that Siuan and Leane used to be stronger than Graendal.

 

hahaha. Nice try, but no cookie.

 

 

[Darkness Incarnated]

But Maj, your example is not accurate. If you give Lanfear 100 powerpoints, Siuan can't have 50. She's weaker than that, maybe not above 30 powerpoints. If you still stand by your words, I'd like you to show me where you place the following people (assuming Siuan has the 50 powerpoints you give her).

-Cadsuane.

-Elayne, Aviendha, Egwene.

-Moghedien.

-Nynaeve.

-Mesaana, Semirhage.

-Graendal.

-Sharina, Alivia, Cyndane.

I put the last three together because I don't know where they exactly stand (though I suspect Cyndane might be slightly stronger). I don't have the books, but I believe there is a 'drop' between Cadsuane and Moiraine/Siuan (from New Spring if I'm not mistaken). Nynaeve is described as a bonfire beside Egwene's and Elayne's candles. That implies quite a drop, and Egwene and Elayne are a good deal stronger than Cadsuane. I won't even go into the Forsaken.

Explain to me how all this compute, starting with a Siuan (in her former self), at 50 powerpoints and Lanfear at the top. Take into account the descriptions and gaps between people given in the books. For instance, it seems to me that Lanfear can easily handle more than two women of Siuan's strength at the same time. By your powerpoint system, two Siuans would be the equals of Lanfear. Does this reflect what we have from the books?

 

[Majsju]

I said that I threw those numbers out just to make the demonstration more clear. Thing is, there is no list distributing powerpoints to all channelers, that is something Luckers either made up himself, or nicked from another fansite. I havde no intention of trying to find accurate powerpoints, when RJ himself does not have any such thing.

 

Even if such a list existed, and was correct, the actual numbers does not matter that much. Say that Siuan and Leane started at 30 powerpoinyts, with 50% loss that wouldplavce them at 15. Lanfear still at 50, which might be what, slightly weaker than Egwene? Slightly stronger?

 

You see the difference between using logic, and deducting power using percentage rather than a fixed number of powerpoints, right?