How come nobody gets dead in WoT?

[dmanmiller34]

Wow lots of bloodthirsty people.  :D I personally am quite content with the number of people who have died or not died. Thats part of what i love about these books is how intracatly they are all woven together. Sure I wouldn't mind if some minor charaters died like Gen. Bashere or Cadsuanne or some of the Ashaman or Aes sedai (that would make life simpler)but none of the "main" charaters.

[Achmed]

Man - I'd just be pissed if some of the characters died at this point.  Especially since it seems they are just ready to achieve their goals.

 

Egwene- Amyrlin

Elayne- Queen

Perrin- Faile

Etc.

 

and most importantly

Lan- Almost there, almost King of Malkier

[dmanmiller34]

I could almsot understand Lan dying. He has waged his war with the shadow since the craddle. If the shadow is beaten and he dies in the process or srtikes the final blow and in turn gets killed him self it would be a fitting and heroic end to Malkier.

[Vemynal]

Knew i forgot on!

 

/wants Lan to die^^

[Jambo]

I do want some characters to die (besides the forsaken) but not really any of the main characters, and if they die I hope they are actually doing something and the death is well described. Nothing pissed me off  >:( more than when reading the 7 HP book, so many ppl were killed off randomly with nothing more than a paragraph actually talking about it. It was like 'oh look, they're dead... oh well what's next'

[dmanmiller34]

Rest Assured, RJ has never left us lacking in the detail department. I don't think that he could. Its against his nature and Literary style. No I bet any deaths will be extremely well Coriographed (SP?) ;D

[Digbe]

I think many people who love these books, do so because of the entire world RJ depicts.  While he casts an in depth picture of all of the characters' emotions and reactions to others, I THINK, he lacks an aspect of pulling a certain draw from the reader in regards to capturing the full aspect of his characters emotional spectrum. I.E. Lan/Nynaeve's love is in depth, yet Nynaeve was (at first)oblivious to the concept that Rand and Lan were to kill Ashadude in Far Madding(?.  My point is, he doesn't capture the internal struggle of what Nynaeve thinks of ole hubby breaking into a house and killing somone.  Sure, he delves into it for a line or two although it could have served as place where he could insert more 'meat & potatoes' and less filler.

 

We all feel what the characters feel.  As a reader, I try to imagine the guantlet of emotions that characters endur.  For the most part, emotions attached to death in WOT seem to only capture the premise that it is a cool, somewhat gory death, and are easily forgotten.

 

I am not intentionally knocking RJ.  This is the best series ive ever encountered.  But I want to see feel what Birgitte would to feel if Olver died because she failed to save him. Or maybe Fain killing Bela( I would cry for years).

 

So, ladies and all others who think us guys just want more killing;  I think we just want more Pathos.

 

*Expressed views are solely the views of the postee as well as the assumptions made therin*

[Digbe]

Nynaeve would make a good widowed-spinster in lieu of a happy queen-wife.  Lan an Malkier army would make an excellent bloody battle, but I think his army would somehow become a legendary army bound to something not quite as obvious as Horn of Malkier-style but certainly a reserve army for the next age..

 

Fitting, I think.  As he is to never give up his fight with the shadow until either one dies & if the Shadow diedit would be lame.  Hey it haunts the man his entire life, why not extend it, hold him in limbo for a few thousand years and then make him do it again. :o

[Lune]

I'd feel terrible if Lan died. Somehow I feel like it would be anti-climatic after everything. Especially that fantastic scene in KoD with Nynaeve rounding up people to ride with Lan. He may not be able to carve Malkier out of the Blight but he can definitely avenge it and live vindicated after so long.

 

Anyway... my expected body count...

 

Rand - come on, it's general consensus he will die.

 

Taim - He's already obviously a bad guy. PS: Does anyone remember that interrogation in TDR and Joiya tells this story about Taim being used as a fake Rand? Looking back on it, I can't help but wonder if there was *some* truth in it, or at least a foreshadowing on RJ's part.

 

Alot of the Band - I think Vanin and the others will be down for the count this time.

 

Sorilea - old age. seriously.

 

Cadsuane - old age. I don't think she'll *let* herself die until TG is over. In fact, to romanticise it a bit, you could say this is her 'last big adventure' before she passes on.

 

Elaida - Alviarin or one of the BA will kill her. Or she might kill herself once the failure becomes eminent. Either way she is one person I really want to see dead.

 

 

You know, whenever I think of the whole "Rand needs Perrin/Mat" and how they need to be together. It always makes me think of Power Rangers or Captain Planet. Maybe when TG comes they'll stand on the Rocks of Shayol Ghul and scream "WITH OUR POWERS COMBINED!", or "SAIDIN POWAH MAKE UP!" and then transform into this giant man with a huge beard, a wolf's tail, and a sword of light with fuzzy dice attached to the hilt. And then we'll have a cool theme song play while the Dark One emerges from his prison in a palette-swapped version and then they do battle slow motion with appropriate grunts, flashes and clashes.

[Davram]

LOL :D

[Vemynal]

but for a good book it can't just be people you want to see dead, because that only explores the happy part of your emotional spectrum.

 

We need to see Rand cry, show his humanity. And for that we need a death that will break down what he's done to himself

 

i.e. Min :P

[Davram]

or perhaps someone else who is close to him.......Tam al'Thor....

[Guest cwestervelt]

Another death, especially that of someone close to him, will not break through the walls Rand has built.  Those walls are there partly to protect him from just such a death.  Another one would just push him over the edge.

[Vemynal]

pushing rand over the edge and breaking him are the same in this case though

 

its like an alcohol tolerance, it has built up over time and is strong, but if you seriously binged t say a lethal amount you'd lose it for a while, possibly for good. and have to start over.

 

all those deaths so far Rand has felt guilty for, but none of them were loved, merely it was his up-bringing that told him omen shouldn't be killed.

 

he loves min, so her death would be so astronomically guilt  riddening for rand, so absolutely maddening, that it would break his walls.

 

ESPECIALLY if its someone else who say was already an enemy, like Moridin^^

[Guest cwestervelt]

I disagree.  If anything Rand will shift to someone who has left emotion behind to someone that is driven purely by hate and revenge.  He would be worse than he is now.  And we already know that him winning in his current state would be worse than the Shadow winning.

[TheRedSon]

...and if they die I hope they are actually doing something and the death is well described. Nothing pissed me off  >:( more than when reading the 7 HP book, so many ppl were killed off randomly with nothing more than a paragraph actually talking about it. It was like 'oh look, they're dead... oh well what's next'

 

RJ will most likly show us the deaths that matter to us(even those that only matter to us emotionally like the deaths you're referring to in The Deathly Hallows).  JK Rowling imposed limits on her narrative, intentionally, that he has not.  Not seeing those deaths in the Harry Potter book was actually a good thing.  At least, it was a good thing for the sake of consistency and the story's pace. 

 

-possible spoilers for Harry Potter readers...

 

In the Harry Potter books everything (barring prologues) is in Harry's perspective.  Either we were going to miss some characters dying, nobody we cared about would die (kind of anti-climatic in a series the author says is about death) or nobody was going to die unless Harry was present to see it.  Something had to be going on in that scene that Harry couldn't see and if no one died during that time it wouldn't seem nearly as serious as it was.  I would have liked to have seen their last actions on earth, but not if it meant no one could die unless Harry was present for it.

[Vambram]

And we already know that him winning in his current state would be worse than the Shadow winning.

 

What?? I totally disagree with that opinion. and I don't like to see the over exaggerations of the supposed insanity within Rand. He is not really insane, but he really does have the real voice of LTT in his mind. How do you justify the belief that Rand winning in his so-called current state would be worse than the Dark One and the Forsaken and the armies of the Shadow winning?

[Guest cwestervelt]

And we already know that him winning in his current state would be worse than the Shadow winning.

 

What?? I totally disagree with that opinion. and I don't like to see the over exaggerations of the supposed insanity within Rand. He is not really insane, but he really does have the real voice of LTT in his mind. How do you justify the belief that Rand winning in his so-called current state would be worse than the Dark One and the Forsaken and the armies of the Shadow winning?

 

You can disagree with that if you want.  You should know that it isn't my oppinion though.  That is the reason Sorilea and Cadsuane make the pact that they will teach Rand laughter and tears.

[Vambram]

I really doubt that Sorilea and Cadsuane right now at the end of KoD are thinking that Rand went to TG right then and defeated the DO, that it would be a worse result than if the D.O. and his forces won, instead. I do not recall anything from those two saying anything that would support this idea of yours, sir.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Sorry, Vambram, but that idea has been expressed by several characters, and implied in prophecy.

 

One example, from the Header of ACoS (since its the easiest to find  ;) ):

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

 

Now ... if the Dark One intends to completely obliterate the world (as I think he does) I'm not sure that Rand winning, even in his current state, would actually be worse. 

 

But the characters who are expressing this idea are probably thinking in terms of a world that is still intact, but ruled by the Shadow.  In comparison to that, a world ruled by Rand in the extrapolation of his current condition could be at least as bad, and possibly worse, than such a world.

 

That said, it is carrying the implication to its extreme.  But the idea has been put forward. 

 

I wouldn't personally, however, put it in the category of "things we KNOW to be true".  After all, if anything has been learned in this story, its that just because a character says it, doesn't make it true.  But there are several characters who fear that it may be true, and have said so.

[Vambram]

I have re-read the scenes involving Rand in KoD, and I simply do not see the mad lunatic that everyone else seems to think that they see. In fact, Cadsuane and Nynaeve and the others were all shocked and surprised when Semirhage told them that LTT was inside of Rand's head. Prophecy and Headers of chapters might imply one thing, but we all know that prophecies are open to interpretation. However, by reading and looking at what those characters whom are spending a lot of time with Rand in the KoD, I simply do not see where they are thinking that Rand is a dangerous raving lunatic who might be more dangerous to the world than the Forsaken or the Dark One winning Tarmon Gai'don. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Rand has several times torn his apartment to shreds.  He threw Perrin across a large room, in public, hard enough to make him bleed from the impact.  He has been found several times weeping and moaning over his list.  He has anger problems, and in a ruler, that is very, very dangerous, especially a ruler as autocratic as Rand is becoming.

 

He's not there yet.  But the direction he is heading in is that of a merciless dictator.  The signs are there, and he's not far from the breaking point.  Things that could be overlooked or dealt with in someone who does not have his power are, in him, potentially dangerous to the whole world.  What if he has a fit of rage, like the ones in which he trashed his apartments, but this time he uses the Power?  Through Callandor?  Or, Light help us, the male Choedan Kal?  He's been on a razor-edge for a long time.  Remember when he almost smashed the Seal Taim gave him?  Thats not the only close call there's been.

 

Again, he's not there yet.  But unless something changes, that's where he's headed.  Cadsuane and others are looking at him with an eye toward prevention.

[Vambram]

In looking at scenes since after saidin was cleansed, are there any examples similar to what you have listed, RAW? I truly do doubt that there are. In my opinion, after saidin was cleansed in Winter's Heart, Rand's personality became closer to whom he was before tEotW and before he and his friends had to leave the Two Rivers.

As for the merciless dictator part, well, many examples of that are justice executed towards immoral nobles whom thought of peasants and commoners as being beneath so far beneath the noble and wealthy that the commoners did not deserve to be treated fairly. Also, Rand's conversation with the Aelfinn told him that he had to unite the world, among other things, in order to win at the Last Battle. So, that explains why he "became a dictator."

[Guest cwestervelt]

Thanks for trying Robert.  You said it better than what I was managing to come up with.

 

Vambram, I think by merciless dictators he was referring to ones like Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot.  Not exactly the people that can be seen as simply issuing justice to immoral nobles.  Robert was saying that Rand is headed in that direction, but has not reached that point yet.  Cadsuane and Sorilea are trying to make sure he doesn't reach that point.

 

Cleansing the Taint did not do anything to make Rand better.  RJ himself has said any effects male channelers had developed form the Taint they will need to live with.  That means that since Rand was having anger management issues, he will continue to do so.  We have not seen any major out breaks (it came close in KoD with Logain) because those around him are holding him in check.  Rand can't always count on them being their to curb his actions.

[Vambram]

I agree that Rand has anger management issues. Heck, the fate of the world depends upon him, and he has an insane LTT rattling around within his mind. However, in my opinion, the one's whom have the best chances of keeping Rand grounded, sane, and going into a full blown fit of rage or lunacy are Min and Aviendha. I would also include Elayne, but due to her pregnancy and lack of clear judgment in KoD, its obvious that Elayne has her own mental or emotional issues to deal with. Regardless, to me, I see as Min along with Aviendha as being the most stabilizing influences for Rand. However, from this reader's point of view, I think that the fears of many of the characters of the books are exaggerated fears based upon their own perceptions and knowledge. Obviously, the characters in the books cannot know as much as what has happened or has been written in the last 11 books that us readers are priviledged to know about, my friends. :)