Alivia and Sharina.

[Feral]

They're two of the most powerful female chanellers in WoT (I think) and some people on this forum have said that they're just about as powerful as is possible, but how do they compare to some of the powerful male chanellers? Like Rand and Morridin?

[Destrus]

Personally, I've always kinda seen the pecking order as far as "channeling power" is concerned as follows:

 

1 Rand - He's super powerful with his channeling.  Most of the Forsaken are somewhat surprised, at first, by how strong he is.  I think that implies that he's a stronger channeler than most, if not all, of the Forsaken.

 

2 Moridin - He's a half a step below the DO, and probably Rand's equal, for all intents and purposes.  He might actually be a step above Rand, because without Callandor, I don't know that Rand would've beaten him the first go around.

 

3 Nynaeve - There's a reason why Rand chose Nynaeve to go with him and to use the Chodean Kal do what needed to be done at the end of WH.

 

[chelseafan]

I could be wrong but Alivia is stronger than Nynaeve isnt she?

[Gentled Ben]

She's considerably stronger. Rand chose Nynaeve because he trusts her as much as for her strength.

[Charlz Guybon]

They're two of the most powerful female chanellers in WoT (I think) and some people on this forum have said that they're just about as powerful as is possible, but how do they compare to some of the powerful male chanellers? Like Rand and Morridin?

 

They're the most powerful femal channelers who aren't Forsaken.

This FAQ is extremely accurate in my opinion and it places Aliva one level above Sharina. It places Aliva on a level equal to Graendal and Sharina on a level equal to Semirhage.

 

http://wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=75

[Darkness Incarnated]

Cyndane is probably the strongest woman around, noticeably stronger than Alivia, I would say. And yet Cyndane is a step below what she used to be as Lanfear. Aes Sedai and their 'as strong as one can be' is yet another indication, in my view, of their ignorance, though I think they keep it in the realm of speculations, not hard facts.

Ishamael/Moridin is the strongest Forsaken, on a par with Rand; the two are the most powerful channelers around.

[Siemba]

I know Alivia is Seanchan but do we actually know much about Sharina? Except that she likes organising people, is old and is really strong? If that FAQ is roughtly right, then it looks a bit like each Forsaken is going to have a light supporting equal.

 

A bit off topic, but are male chanellers actually stronger than female chanellers or is it just that, due to the taint, we only get a limited picture of male chanellers?

[Charlz Guybon]

Cyndane is probably the strongest woman around, noticeably stronger than Alivia, I would say. And yet Cyndane is a step below what she used to be as Lanfear. Aes Sedai and their 'as strong as one can be' is yet another indication, in my view, of their ignorance, though I think they keep it in the realm of speculations, not hard facts.

Ishamael/Moridin is the strongest Forsaken, on a par with Rand; the two are the most powerful channelers around.

It's definitely their ignorance speaking, though they do acknowledge it's speculation. It's is possible in my opinion that Sharina could be as strong or stronger then any woman who has ever come to the White Tower.

[Darkness Incarnated]

That is a strong possibility, and it would certainly account for their awe of Sharina's strength. I wish some of them would pay a visit to the Dragon Reborn, they would be amazed by the strength of a certain ex-damane he keeps with him...

Shouldn't Egwene know that it's possible to be stronger than Sharina? After all, she had first experience of Lanfear's power. ;)

[Charlz Guybon]

That is a strong possibility, and it would certainly account for their awe of Sharina's strength. I wish some of them would pay a visit to the Dragon Reborn, they would be amazed by the strength of a certain ex-damane he keeps with him...

Shouldn't Egwene know that it's possible to be stronger than Sharina? After all, she had first experience of Lanfear's power. ;)

She might not recollect much because of the shock.

 

Now the 21 level list can't possibly be linear. I think there's probably a 25% difference between levels. That would have Nynaeve 56.25% stronger than Egwene, and Egwene would be 95.31% stronger than Moraine. Lanfear herself would be 8,673% stronger than Morgase. On a scale like that Sharina would be so far above the average sister that she would seem like she's in the clouds.

 

Luckily for the Aes Sedai, women shielding is only loosly correlated to strength and

    "Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree. "

[Feral]

That is a strong possibility, and it would certainly account for their awe of Sharina's strength. I wish some of them would pay a visit to the Dragon Reborn, they would be amazed by the strength of a certain ex-damane he keeps with him...

Shouldn't Egwene know that it's possible to be stronger than Sharina? After all, she had first experience of Lanfear's power. ;)

She might not recollect much because of the shock.

 

Now the 21 level list can't possibly be linear. I think there's probably a 25% difference between levels. That would have Nynaeve 56.25% stronger than Egwene, and Egwene would be 95.31% stronger than Moraine. Lanfear herself would be 8,673% stronger than Morgase. On a scale like that Sharina would be so far above the average sister that she would seem like she's in the clouds.

 

Luckily for the Aes Sedai, women shielding is only loosly correlated to strength and

    "Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree. "

 

Thanks for that. And the link. It was very useful. I don't actually own the books so I can't look things up which is why I sometimes ask silly questions lol.

[bcxanth]

A bit off topic, but are male chanellers actually stronger than female chanellers or is it just that, due to the taint, we only get a limited picture of male chanellers?

 

I believe RJ has said that strength in the Power is much like physical strength. Statistically men are more powerful then brute force, with some men being weaker then some women, and vice vera. But as very little with the power really requires your full strength to do it, it really comes down more to how skilled the channeler is, rather than their raw power.

[drunkengrizzly]

there are some cases where strength in the power isn't even relevent, such as rand vs. lanfear.  that would have been a hell of a fight if he didn't have his issues.  but something that isn't so obvious but still related, is when rand breaks free at dumai's wells.  the shear force of him drawing on his absolute maximum amount of the power instantaneously kills a few holding his shield, and severs a few others.  not exactly a duel, but still him just completely overwhelming them with strength in the power.

[Luckers]

Firstly, on the FAQ, it should not be trusted as any sort of qualitative statement about the strengths of the characters. The majority of it is based on very loose logic, and some of it is based on no more than the 'feeling' of the writer. This is not to say that it is a useful relative tool in finding where random lesser characters stand.

 

SHARINA AND ALIVIA

 

On the question of Sharina and Alivia, since we have never seen them near each other, nor in a position to be judged by someone who has met both, it is rather hard to come up with a position on their strength. We have statements about both in comparison to Nynaeve, and those statements are relatively comprable in the degree of the suggested difference between their strength, and Nynaeve's, so this allows us to say that if there is a difference between there strengths then it is a very small difference. It could go either way with who is stronger, or they could very well be the same strength.

 

SHARINA, ALIVIA AND THE FEMALE FORSAKEN

 

As to where they stand in comparison to the female Forsaken, thats a little trickier. The only real indicator we have about this is the suggestion by Aes Sedai that Sharina is the strongest that a woman can be.

 

Now, a common response to this is that Aes Sedai frequently state things that are not true, as fact, and so forth. This is not really an adequate response... Yes, Aes Sedai do convince themselves that their opinion is fact, but that is not what they are doing here. Here they are suggesting a potential theory, and doing it diffidently... in the inherent manner of their suggestion they show that they do not know, therefore they are not attempting to create fact from opinion. But if they don't know, then what does that imply? What can we, as readers, get out of it that is interesting?

 

1. In the past five years the Aes Sedai have encountered increasingly stronger and stronger female channelers. Nothing in what they have experience even lends itself to the suggestion of an upper limit, not until they have a sustained intake that never exceeds that strength would they have reason to concider the question they are currently considering. This implies to me that they have some knowledge of an upper strength.

 

This is not unlikely. The Aes Sedai have kept track of strength ranges throughout time, even as they find it distasteful. Moreover, they know, relatively speaking, the range of strength represented in their order at different periods throughout time. This leads us to the second thing of import.

 

2. They have a very very rough perception of where that upper strength is, in relation of the strengths of todays Aes Sedai, and Sharina, to their minds, is somewhere around that strength.

 

This idea is backed up by Cyndane, and her comment in regards to it being impossible that someone could exceed her previous strength (as Lanfear). Again, the mode of the thought suggest that it is an honest self-judgement as opposed to the internal bragging a lot of Forsaken do about their own strength limits.

 

Though it is loose, the rough comparison between Sharina to the historical Aes Sedai (Ellisande?) suggests that at the very least Sharina is Somewhere between being as strong as Cyndane, to being as strong as Lanfear (or, at least she will be when she reaches her full strength). My personal suspicion is that they are indeed as strong as Lanfear, or getting there. Why? Well there are the comments about Alivia being 'conciderably stronger' than Nynaeve... talk about a weak reason, but yeah... :)

 

ALIVIA, SHARINA AND MEN

 

Rand and Moridin are equal in strength, and stand at the top of the Male hierarchy of strengths. The only comment we have from RJ about how much the male strength range exceeds the female is that comment that in relation to RJ's 21 level ranking (not the FAQ one) the male rankings might exceed the females highest level by 'a level or two'... so not a terribly great deal. My guess is therefore that Alivia and Sharina are somewhere between being equal in strength to Logain or Taim, comparative to Rand, to being three levels below Logain or Rand...

 

That is a strong possibility, and it would certainly account for their awe of Sharina's strength. I wish some of them would pay a visit to the Dragon Reborn, they would be amazed by the strength of a certain ex-damane he keeps with him...

 

We know through the quote comparative to Nynaeve that the degree in difference between Sharina and Alivia will not be that great.

 

Shouldn't Egwene know that it's possible to be stronger than Sharina? After all, she had first experience of Lanfear's power.

 

You're assuming, of course, that Sharina is weaker than Lanfear. But seperate of that, recall that Lanfear had an angreal when Egwene met her, and we know through Cyndane that when a woman feels another woman channeling through an angreal it becomes hard to sense their true strength. Add that to the torture Egwene was undergoing at the time....

 

Cyndane is probably the strongest woman around, noticeably stronger than Alivia, I would say. And yet Cyndane is a step below what she used to be as Lanfear. Aes Sedai and their 'as strong as one can be' is yet another indication, in my view, of their ignorance, though I think they keep it in the realm of speculations, not hard facts.

Ishamael/Moridin is the strongest Forsaken, on a par with Rand; the two are the most powerful channelers around.

It's definitely their ignorance speaking, though they do acknowledge it's speculation. It's is possible in my opinion that Sharina could be as strong or stronger then any woman who has ever come to the White Tower.

 

I agree... they speak in ignorence, but that ignorance is self-acknowledged, and in its very nature is a degree of information, as i pointed out. I guess it all comes down to the question of whether you think it possible that in the three thousand years of the Tower a woman equaling Lanfears strength has not sought to become Aes Sedai... recalling too, that the Tower has housed up to 6,000 Aes Sedai in the past....

 

Darkness Incarnate, what makes you think that Cyndane has to be the strongest woman around, or that she is 'noticeably' stronger than Alivia? RJ even states himself that Cyndane's survival in that confrontation came down to her superior knowledge of the One Power. So in what way is that evidence against the Aes Sedai suggestion about Sharina's skill... Do you have any evidence?

 

Personally, I've always kinda seen the pecking order as far as "channeling power" is concerned as follows:

 

1 Rand - He's super powerful with his channeling.  Most of the Forsaken are somewhat surprised, at first, by how strong he is.  I think that implies that he's a stronger channeler than most, if not all, of the Forsaken.

 

2 Moridin - He's a half a step below the DO, and probably Rand's equal, for all intents and purposes.  He might actually be a step above Rand, because without Callandor, I don't know that Rand would've beaten him the first go around.

 

3 Nynaeve - There's a reason why Rand chose Nynaeve to go with him and to use the Chodean Kal do what needed to be done at the end of WH.

 

Rand is stronger than all the Forsaken, though Moridin is indeed his equal in strength. Demandred and Aginor are both a bare step below Rand and Moridin, probably somewhere around Logain and Taim's strength. Lanfear was either equal with them, or a step below, depending on what RJ meant when he said the top male strength was 'a level or two' above the top female strength.

 

Moridin is not a half-step below the Dark One. The Dark One is so powerful that not even with the Choedan Kal could Moridin or Rand be equal in strength to him. Combining the two Choedan Kal, it has been suggested, would bring human channelers to that strength, but short of that... and Moridin is a LONG way short of that.

 

Moridin nearly won the confrontation in Tear because of his superior knowledge of the One Power, not strength. Irrespective of where you place him in the strength listing, or how close Rand was to reaching his full strength as Moridin's equal, when Rand was using Callandor he was somewhere between being four and ten times stronger than Moridin (a loose estimate i reached based on Elayne ruminations about angreal).

 

But Rand's final strength is equal to Moridin's.

 

Nynaeve was called upon because of those who were strong enough to use the choedan Kal (the cut off limit is around Moiraine, Romanda, Lelaine and Elaida's strength), she was the one he trusted most to link with him.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

2. They have a very very rough perception of where that upper strength is, in relation of the strengths of todays Aes Sedai, and Sharina, to their minds, is somewhere around that strength.

 

This idea is backed up by Cyndane, and her comment in regards to it being impossible that someone could exceed her previous strength (as Lanfear). Again, the mode of the thought suggest that it is an honest self-judgement as opposed to the internal bragging a lot of Forsaken do about their own strength limits.

 

Though it is loose, the rough comparison between Sharina to the historical Aes Sedai (Ellisande?) suggests that at the very least Sharina is Somewhere between being as strong as Cyndane, to being as strong as Lanfear (or, at least she will be when she reaches her full strength). My personal suspicion is that they are indeed as strong as Lanfear, or getting there. Why? Well there are the comments about Alivia being 'conciderably stronger' than Nynaeve... talk about a weak reason, but yeah... :)

When has Sharina been compared to Ellisande in the series? I don't recall any even subtle references.

 

As for that being weak evidence I don't think so, Sharina has been called stronger than Nynaeve, and Alivia considerably stronger. Thats sounds like a pretty clear cut difference to me. Based on that, Sharina being one level higher and Aliva two levels higher makes sense. And given Nynaeve's strength compared to Moghedien, Alivia equaling Graendal makes sense.

 

 

I agree... they speak in ignorence, but that ignorance is self-acknowledged, and in its very nature is a degree of information, as i pointed out. I guess it all comes down to the question of whether you think it possible that in the three thousand years of the Tower a woman equaling Lanfears strength has not sought to become Aes Sedai... recalling too, that the Tower has housed up to 6,000 Aes Sedai in the past....

 

Darkness Incarnate, what makes you think that Cyndane has to be the strongest woman around, or that she is 'noticeably' stronger than Alivia? RJ even states himself that Cyndane's survival in that confrontation came down to her superior knowledge of the One Power. So in what way is that evidence against the Aes Sedai suggestion about Sharina's skill... Do you have any evidence?

 

IIRC the Tower only has room for 3,000 Aes Sedai, where did you get 6,000 from?

 

I would be surprised if the Tower ever housed a sister stronger than Graendal.

[Luckers]

When has Sharina been compared to Ellisande in the series? I don't recall any even subtle references.

 

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting they had been compared, however there are several comments suggesting that Ellisande was very strong in the Power. Jealousy of her strength was the reason that Tetsuan moved to keep the other Nations of the Covenant from going to Manetheren's aid... I was suggesting her as an Aes Sedai that served to lead to the suggestion of a top strength.

 

Has for that being weak evidence I don't think so, Sharina has been called stronger than Nynaeve, and Alivia considerably stronger. Sharina being one level higher and Aliva two levels higher makes sense. And given Nynaeve's strength compared to Moghedien, Alivia equaling Graendal makes sense.

 

I disagree, the comment is completely subjective. For starters, the comments were made by two seperate individuals. Who is to say that what seems 'considerably stronger' to one, is not just plain 'stronger' to another. And how can such a semantic statement be taken as any form of qualitative statement on the degree of strength between the two. Certainly, there is room for the suggestion, but it is weak at best.

 

Additionally, remember that Nynaeve may now be stronger than Moghedian. It all depends on whether she was at her full strength when they met. We know that she wasn't three months prior in the Tower, but following that we have no direct comment on whether she had reached that strength, though it can take several years, and Nynaeve was never forced.

 

IIRC the Tower only has room for 3,000 Aes Sedai, where did you get 6,000 from?

 

Of the top of my head, to be honest. Irrespective of that, the point was that there were many more Aes Sedai at points in the past.

 

I would be surprised if the Tower ever housed a sister stronger than Graendal.

 

Why? It's been nearly a hundred human generations since the breaking, amongst which between the immediate three percent and the current one percent of the population could channel. That of a population that used to be far more populous than it is now, and contained young women who were fair more likely to approach the Tower than now... why on earth would there have not have been a woman exceeding Graendal's strength?

 

I think many people misread the strength situation given the constant reiteration of the weaker strength of Aes Sedai than those in the Age of Legends, which is not really the case, just a result of lax Aes Sedai recruiting, the decrease in population, the increase in fear and the oath rod. There is absolutely no reason that women of Lanfear's strength would have not existed, and a hell of a lot of logic that she would have. Must have. And moreover, that of those women, some must have approached the tower in the course of three thousand years and a hundred generations.

 

[Charlz Guybon]

When has Sharina been compared to Ellisande in the series? I don't recall any even subtle references.

 

Sorry, I wasn't suggesting they had been compared, however there are several comments suggesting that Ellisande was very strong in the Power. Jealousy of her strength was the reason that Tetsuan moved to keep the other Nations of the Covenant from going to Manetheren's aid... I was suggesting her as an Aes Sedai that served to lead to the suggestion of a top strength.

 

Has for that being weak evidence I don't think so, Sharina has been called stronger than Nynaeve, and Alivia considerably stronger. Sharina being one level higher and Aliva two levels higher makes sense. And given Nynaeve's strength compared to Moghedien, Alivia equaling Graendal makes sense.

 

I disagree, the comment is completely subjective. For starters, the comments were made by two seperate individuals. Who is to say that what seems 'considerably stronger' to one, is not just plain 'stronger' to another. And how can such a semantic statement be taken as any form of qualitative statement on the degree of strength between the two. Certainly, there is room for the suggestion, but it is weak at best.

 

Additionally, remember that Nynaeve may now be stronger than Moghedian. It all depends on whether she was at her full strength when they met. We know that she wasn't three months prior in the Tower, but following that we have no direct comment on whether she had reached that strength, though it can take several years, and Nynaeve was never forced.

Oh, well I would agree that she was likely one of the strongest Aes Sedai in history.

 

I, and the FAQ I linked to, both assume that Nynaeve's stronger than Moghedian and taken that into consideration. Nynaeve stronger than Moghedian , Sharina stronger than Nynaeve and equal to Semirhage and Mesaana, Aliva stronger than Sharina and equal to Graendal.

 

 

Why? It's been nearly a hundred human generations since the breaking, amongst which between the immediate three percent and the current one percent of the population could channel. That of a population that used to be far more populous than it is now, and contained young women who were fair more likely to approach the Tower than now... why on earth would there have not have been a woman exceeding Graendal's strength?

 

I think many people misread the strength situation given the constant reiteration of the weaker strength of Aes Sedai than those in the Age of Legends, which is not really the case, just a result of lax Aes Sedai recruiting, the decrease in population, the increase in fear and the oath rod. There is absolutely no reason that women of Lanfear's strength would have not existed, and a hell of a lot of logic that she would have. Must have. And moreover, that of those women, some must have approached the tower in the course of three thousand years and a hundred generations.

 

Given the importance of strength to the Aes Sedai hierarchy, I would expect the Aes Sedai to keep records of how strong sisters are. So, if they're speculating that Sharina is as strong as woman can be, I think it may indicate that there might have never been a sister stronger than her. Also, I would think that women that strong would be more likely to have been born in Shara, where the Ayyad intermarry and keep the channeling bloodlines strong.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Given the importance of strength to the Aes Sedai hierarchy, I would expect the Aes Sedai to keep records of how strong sisters are.

 

Sorry, but I doubt that very much.

 

Every reference to the hierarchy is based on sisters remembering who did what to whom for how many cookies, and reassessing strength each time they meet.  There is no indication, anywhere, of any records of Sister's strengths, in either absolute or relative terms.  It's not like strength in the Power comes with a scale that can be used to compare a dead Sister's strength to living Sisters' strengths.

[Luckers]

I, and the FAQ I linked to, both assume that Nynaeve's stronger than Moghedian and taken that into consideration. Nynaeve stronger than Moghedian , Sharina stronger than Nynaeve and equal to Semirhage and Mesaana, Aliva stronger than Sharina and equal to Graendal.

 

Which doesn't even address any of the issues. So what if you acknowledge Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedian, in what way does that facilitate a qualitative judgement of Sharina's strength, or even the issues in the suggestion of the use of the comparisons to Nynaeve to get a sense of Sharina and Alivia's comparative strength. You touch the least of my points, than state an unrelated conclusion as a matter of course, and so does that FAQ. Thats why i dismiss it as any form of authority on the matter.

 

Given the importance of strength to the Aes Sedai hierarchy, I would expect the Aes Sedai to keep records of how strong sisters are. So, if they're speculating that Sharina is as strong as woman can be, I think it may indicate that there might have never been a sister stronger than her. Also, I would think that women that strong would be more likely to have been born in Shara, where the Ayyad intermarry and keep the channeling bloodlines strong.

 

Like Robert, I doubt that. Strength is of importance to them, but is never spoken. They even talk about it as being 'that which is never spoken of'. They remember, but no, they would never write it down.

 

As for Shara, certainly there would be women born there of that sort of strength, but again, you have no basis for saying that such strength does not appear in Randland. The only basis for even suggesting it is the ongoing presentation of Aes Sedai (and therefore all modern channelers) as so much weaker than the channelers in the Age of legends, and that is a mentality that has been proved wrong in the course of the text.

 

Indeed, the very concept is unlikely--genetically its essentially impossible for that sort of divergence from the gene pool within the four hundred years of the Breaking, and even the suggested genetic drift witnessed in the three thousand years since does not cover strengths... that was merely the result of lax recruitement.

 

So, I must ask you again, what makes you so sure that such strength has not walked the Tower since the breaking. There have been tens of thousands of Aes Sedai in that time, and the decline in strength and numbers began less then a thousand years ago, and was therefore contributed to by the halving effect of the oath rod. What even suggests such a possibilty?

[Majsju]

Seems that one important thing has been overlooked here. The Aes Sedai talking about Sharina says that she has the Potential to possibly become as strong as strong can be, not that she is. Despite her age, Sharina was as far as we  know not channeling before Egwene opened the novice book for everyone (That Sharina has not Slowed supports that quite strongly). It will take years before she reaches her full potential.

 

Meanwhile, Alivia has been channeling since she was a teenager, which means almost 400 years. She reached her full potential over 300 years ago.

 

Nynaeve should have reached her full potential by now. If she wasn't there before, the Cleansing should definitly have given her the final push.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, in what way was that overlooked... it was mentioned several times. Moreover in what way is it relevant... it has been stated several times that women can sense a woman's final strength, and the discussion has ever been about the statements about Sharina's final strength....

 

So, I'm sorry, but what is the relevance?

[Charlz Guybon]

Given the importance of strength to the Aes Sedai hierarchy, I would expect the Aes Sedai to keep records of how strong sisters are.

 

Sorry, but I doubt that very much.

 

It's not like strength in the Power comes with a scale that can be used to compare a dead Sister's strength to living Sisters' strengths.

Well, I don't expect it the records to have any measurable units attached to them, but I'm sure when women are enrolled in the novice book their potential is written down, and for really strong entries, the Mistres of the Novices would look to an old sister for judgement. If there are distinct differences in levels rather than a continuum, this should work.

 

For example, if the oldest sister (lets call her A) when Cadsuane was a novice tells the Mistress of Novices that Caddy was a bit stronger than the oldest sister B she remembered from when she was young, and it was written that the oldest sister C that sister B remembered was a bit stronger than her, than we know that sister C who lived 800 years ago was equal to Cadsuane. Now if when sister C was put in the novice book it was written that she was a bit weaker than sister D, than we know sister D was as strong as Egwene. You can work back through the records like this to the beginning and have a pretty good idea how strong sisters were.

 

In fact this must be so, because in New Spring, Cadsuane says

"No one has come to the Tower in a thousand years who could match me. No one to match Meilyn or Keren in almost six hundred. A thousand years ago, there would have been fifty sisters or more who stood higher than this child."

 

She doesn't use any qualifiers. She doesn't say a thousand years ago there would have been many sisters who stood higher than this child, she says fifty or more. The Aes Sedai must keep records for her to know this with that much precision. It's a number so much larger than the present day (50 compared to 3) that I don't think she would have been able to grab it of thin air to make a point and say it without the oath against lying kicking in. It's simply too high a number to be believed unless there is solid evidence for it.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

Which doesn't even address any of the issues. So what if you acknowledge Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedian, in what way does that facilitate a qualitative judgement of Sharina's strength, or even the issues in the suggestion of the use of the comparisons to Nynaeve to get a sense of Sharina and Alivia's comparative strength. You touch the least of my points, than state an unrelated conclusion as a matter of course, and so does that FAQ. Thats why i dismiss it as any form of authority on the matter.

 

I think it's very simple. The only evidence we have is the judgments of other characters and our own judgments from witnessing the characters actions. We know Nynaeve hadn't reached her full strength when fighting Moghedien, so we now Nynaeve's full strength is stronger. Our evidence on Sharina comes from two different sources, and our evidence on Alivia from one.

 

Aside from that, she is... she’s.. Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve.

 

-Winter’s Heart, Sea Folk and Kin

 

One, a grandmother named Sharina with a potential above even that of Nynaeve.

 

-The Path of Daggers, Beginnings

 

Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anybody in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation

.

-Crossroads Of Twilight, Secrets

This is the only evidence we have, now it is subjective, and comes from different sources. However until we see more evidence, we can only go by what we have. And what we have certainly suggests that Alivia is stronger than Nynaeve by a greater degree than Sharina is.

 

Now how Sharina and Alivia compares to the forsaken depends on how Nynaeve compares to Semirhage, which Jordan unfortunately did not go into in the capture sequence. If as I suspect Nynaeve is stronger then Moghedien, but weaker than Semirhage, than Sharina would equal Semirhage, and Alivia Greandal. If on the other hand Nynaeve is as strong as Semirhage, Sharina would be as strong as Greandal and Alivia as strong as Cyndane. It's possible, but I don't think it likely, Nynaeve, doesn't seem to be that much stronger than Moghedien, but they haven't met in a while, so we don't know.

 

 

Indeed, the very concept is unlikely--genetically its essentially impossible for that sort of divergence from the gene pool within the four hundred years of the Breaking, and even the suggested genetic drift witnessed in the three thousand years since does not cover strengths... that was merely the result of lax recruitement.

 

So, I must ask you again, what makes you so sure that such strength has not walked the Tower since the breaking. There have been tens of thousands of Aes Sedai in that time, and the decline in strength and numbers began less then a thousand years ago, and was therefore contributed to by the halving effect of the oath rod. What even suggests such a possibilty?

 

The decline in strength and numbers began before the Trolloc Wars and has continuously accelerated from the Trolloc Wars until the present day. We know this because in KoD Egwene thinks to herself that not only will the second Novice cafeteria have to be reopened, Novices will have to eat in shifts, which they had not had to do since "well before the Trolloc Wars"

 

Secondly, it isn't just genetics at work here, theres the pattern to consider. If it doesn't want channelers that strong woven out they won't be. In fact, given the apparent need to keep the Aes Sedai as ignorant as possible, the weaker the better.

[Guest cwestervelt]

 

Which doesn't even address any of the issues. So what if you acknowledge Nynaeve is stronger than Moghedian, in what way does that facilitate a qualitative judgement of Sharina's strength, or even the issues in the suggestion of the use of the comparisons to Nynaeve to get a sense of Sharina and Alivia's comparative strength. You touch the least of my points, than state an unrelated conclusion as a matter of course, and so does that FAQ. Thats why i dismiss it as any form of authority on the matter.

 

I think it's very simple. The only evidence we have is the judgments of other characters and our own judgments from witnessing the characters actions. We know Nynaeve hadn't reached her full strength when fighting Moghedien, so we now Nynaeve's full strength is stronger. Our evidence on Sharina comes from two different sources, and our evidence on Alivia from one.

 

Aside from that, she is... she’s.. Alivia is considerably stronger than Nynaeve.

 

-Winter’s Heart, Sea Folk and Kin

 

One, a grandmother named Sharina with a potential above even that of Nynaeve.

 

-The Path of Daggers, Beginnings

 

Sharina’s potential was nothing short of remarkable, far beyond anybody in living memory except for Nynaeve, and ahead of Nynaeve as well. Some thought that she might become as strong as it was possible to be, though that was only speculation

.

-Crossroads Of Twilight, Secrets

This is the only evidence we have, now it is subjective, and comes from different sources. However until we see more evidence, we can only go by what we have. And what we have certainly suggests that Alivia is stronger than Nynaeve by a greater degree than Sharina is.

 

Unless the statements comparing Nynaeve with Alivia and Nyaeve with Sharina come from the same person, the choice of words really doesn't meen anything.  Each person is going to express things differently.  The best we can say about either is that the people making the comparison are suitable impressed by the potential and strength of both Sharina and Alivia.  Considering how strong Nyaneve is, it would likely take a direct confrontation between Alivia and Sharina to settle the issue.  Something that no one would want to see happen.

 

Now how Sharina and Alivia compares to the forsaken depends on how Nynaeve compares to Semirhage, which Jordan unfortunately did not go into in the capture sequence. If as I suspect Nynaeve is stronger then Moghedien, but weaker than Semirhage, than Sharina would equal Semirhage, and Alivia Greandal. If on the other hand Nynaeve is as strong as Semirhage, Sharina would be as strong as Greandal and Alivia as strong as Cyndane. It's possible, but I don't think it likely, Nynaeve, doesn't seem to be that much stronger than Moghedien, but they haven't met in a while, so we don't know.

 

A fully trained Nynaeve would flatten Moghedien.  When they met, Nynaeve was a barely trained Accepted.  So under trained most Novices knew more.  Yet she fought Moghedien to a stand still while not yet at her full potential.  It is probably safe to say Nynaeve was already stronger than Moghedien when they met in Tanchico.  Moghedien only survived and escaped because she had a major advantage in knowledge and experience.

 

Indeed, the very concept is unlikely--genetically its essentially impossible for that sort of divergence from the gene pool within the four hundred years of the Breaking, and even the suggested genetic drift witnessed in the three thousand years since does not cover strengths... that was merely the result of lax recruitement.

 

So, I must ask you again, what makes you so sure that such strength has not walked the Tower since the breaking. There have been tens of thousands of Aes Sedai in that time, and the decline in strength and numbers began less then a thousand years ago, and was therefore contributed to by the halving effect of the oath rod. What even suggests such a possibilty?

 

The decline in strength and numbers began before the Trolloc Wars and has continuously accelerated from the Trolloc Wars until the present day. We know this because in KoD Egwene thinks to herself that not only will the second Novice cafeteria have to be reopened, Novices will have to eat in shifts, which they had not had to do since "well before the Trolloc Wars"

 

Secondly, it isn't just genetics at work here, theres the pattern to consider. If it doesn't want channelers that strong woven out they won't be. In fact, given the apparent need to keep the Aes Sedai as ignorant as possible, the weaker the better.

 

The decline was, as seen in recent books, in numbers only.  The decline in strength was illusory.  The Aes Sedai didn't actively seek out channellers, they waited for girls to come to them.  As a result, people from remote areas, where the strongest channellers are coming from, where never found.  Throughout the centuries, most of the strongest channelers either died from touching the source unaided or were blocked and never knew what they were doing.