Saidin's Taint **CoT Spoilers**

[The Dragon Reborn]

Qucik question, this has always confused me...If there is an infinite amount of Saidin, how did Rand manage to cleanse it all with his 'filter' method??

Surely even with both Choedan Kal, not matter how much Rand channelled he could not possibly cleanse all of Saidin??

Opinions/answers anybody?

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

First of all, let me just say that we don't know it is infinite, it is assumed by the Aes Sedai, who we have seen make a few erroneous assumptions in the past...

 

Secondly, the taint lies on the surface of saidin. When Rand forced the saidin into the saidar tube, the saidin was repulsed by the saidar. Rand had remembered the way the taint of the DO was drawn to the taint of Shadar Logoth (by watching his two never-healing wounds), and how the two taints seemed were attracted to one another.

 

So the saidin only went through the tube in minimal amounts, but the taint was drawn through by the taint of Shadar Logoth, and they cancelled each other out, resulting in a cleansed saidin and a destroyed Shadar Logoth.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, given the symbolic "surface" of saidin, it cannot be infinite.  Nothing that is infinite can have a "surface", because a surface represents the end of one thing and the beginning of another.

 

Out of curiousity ... is it stated anywhere that either saidin or saidar are considered infinite?  I do not recall any such statement.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I think it it might have been said by Moiraine when she was teaching Egwene in EotW.

 

Anyways, wasn't the taint of saidin attracted to the taint of shadar logoth?

 

So wouldn't it basically only be the taint going through the conduit, and not saidin? I thought the saidin was so resistant to saidar that it wouldn't go through, thus funneling off the taint.

[RobertAlexWillis]

That's pretty much it.  Rand used the natural repulsion between saidin and saidar to force pure saidin (pure except for the taint, of course) to touch Shadar Logoth.  The taint on saidin repsonded with an attraction to the taint of Shadar Logoth.

 

RJ explained the results like this:

 

For foxhead, I think you'll find this covered elsewhere, but here goes. The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Shadow might be considered positive and negative poles. They attract, as do the positive and negative poles of two magnets, but if they make contact, the result is more like making contact between the positive and negative poles of your car battery. Big sparks. Really big sparks.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

 

So, when the saidin taint was brought in contact with the Shadar Logoth taint, they attracted each other (pulling the taint off of the "surface" of saidin, and through the "filter" of saidar), then when combined, they had a mutually destructive reaction to each other (resulting in bye-bye Shadar Logoth, hello Lake Aridhol).

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I would assume that they would cancel in equal amounts, so next question:

 

What if there is a tiny amount of the taint still covering saidin? If it was minute enough, most channelers wouldn't notice it (or at least, the men who were so used to a large amount of taint might not, and the women being linked wouldn't be able to tell because for them, saidin seems really chaotic)

 

Also: "'No,' Moiraine said in answer to a question Rand had missed 'The True Source cannot be used up, any more than a river can be used up by the wheel of a mill." (EotW, Across the Taren

[RobertAlexWillis]

What if there is a tiny amount of the taint still covering saidin? If it was minute enough, most channelers wouldn't notice it (or at least, the men who were so used to a large amount of taint might not, and the women being linked wouldn't be able to tell because for them, saidin seems really chaotic)

 

That is the same question that haunts Cadsuane.  The answer is, I have no idea.  Every indication we've had is that it is truly clean; all the male channelers we've seen agree, (including Lews Therin) and the one POV from a saidin channeling Forsaken that we have since the Cleansing (Aran'gar's in KoD ch 3) none of the Forsaken said anything to indicate that Rand had failed.

 

So, at the moment, it looks like it worked.

 

As to what would happen if, hypothetically, there were some taint remaining, I truly don't know.  We don't know if the taint is capable of self-multiplying, or if it concentrates itself ... every description we've had so far indicates that it "covered" saidin evenly, so if it is gone anywhere, it should be gone everywhere.

 

As for Moiraine's analogy ... it is an apt one.  All she is saying is that the Source is not used up by channeling it, not that it is infinite.  A waterwheel using a river's water does not consume that water, but that doesn't mean the river is infinite.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Yeah, I see what you are saying.

 

BTW, where did you come up with that signature?

[Vambram]

I'm pretty sure that RAW's siggy is a quote from one of the best movies of all time, "The Princess Bride."

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Oh, I've seen that movie.

 

I can't remember the names of the actors though.

 

Did the bald guy who drank poison say that, or did the main character "Wesley" say it?

[Vambram]

Neither. That was Montoya's reply to that bald guy who kept on using the word, "inconceivable!" :)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

oh okay. lol

 

"Inconceivable!"

 

"You keep using that word. I do not think you know what it means."

[RobertAlexWillis]

Exactly.

 

Well, close.

 

Its not "I do not think you know what it means," its "I do not think it means what you think it means."

[The Dragon Reborn]

That's pretty much it.  Rand used the natural repulsion between saidin and saidar to force pure saidin (pure except for the taint, of course) to touch Shadar Logoth.  The taint on saidin repsonded with an attraction to the taint of Shadar Logoth.

 

RJ explained the results like this:

 

For foxhead, I think you'll find this covered elsewhere, but here goes. The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Shadow might be considered positive and negative poles. They attract, as do the positive and negative poles of two magnets, but if they make contact, the result is more like making contact between the positive and negative poles of your car battery. Big sparks. Really big sparks.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

 

So, when the saidin taint was brought in contact with the Shadar Logoth taint, they attracted each other (pulling the taint off of the "surface" of saidin, and through the "filter" of saidar), then when combined, they had a mutually destructive reaction to each other (resulting in bye-bye Shadar Logoth, hello Lake Aridhol).

That really clears it up for me, thanks. I never really caught onto the attraction thing, must have been tired reading that part....

What if there is a tiny amount of the taint still covering saidin? If it was minute enough, most channelers wouldn't notice it (or at least, the men who were so used to a large amount of taint might not, and the women being linked wouldn't be able to tell because for them, saidin seems really chaotic)

 

That is the same question that haunts Cadsuane.  The answer is, I have no idea.  Every indication we've had is that it is truly clean; all the male channelers we've seen agree, (including Lews Therin) and the one POV from a saidin channeling Forsaken that we have since the Cleansing (Aran'gar's in KoD ch 3) none of the Forsaken said anything to indicate that Rand had failed.

 

So, at the moment, it looks like it worked.

 

As to what would happen if, hypothetically, there were some taint remaining, I truly don't know.  We don't know if the taint is capable of self-multiplying, or if it concentrates itself ... every description we've had so far indicates that it "covered" saidin evenly, so if it is gone anywhere, it should be gone everywhere.

Well we do know that one of Rand questions to the snake guy's was how to cleanse Saidin, we can at least assume that the method was correct...whether or not Rand did it right is the only question, but I think it's fair to assume he did, there's be no indications to the contrary.

[BrainFireBob]

Actually, given the symbolic "surface" of saidin, it cannot be infinite.  Nothing that is infinite can have a "surface", because a surface represents the end of one thing and the beginning of another.

 

Out of curiousity ... is it stated anywhere that either saidin or saidar are considered infinite?  I do not recall any such statement.

 

Not quite true. Being infinite is dimensional. Having a surface means you are not infinite in one dimension, but says nothing about the other two, allowing for infinite volume.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Something that is infinite in only two dimensions has no volume, BFB.  V=lwh.  If h is zero, V is zero.  Three dimensions are required for volume, and nothing that is infinite in three dimensions has a "surface".

 

Its all metaphysical anyway ... the physical descriptors are just analogies created by the mind of the characters to articulate something that is unexplainable in words.  Its not like saidin is actually a lake somewhere.  But the analogy indicates that under normal circumstances, the taint is equally present everywhere on the "surface" of saidin, and so if it is gone anywhere, it is gone everywhere.

[BrainFireBob]

Something that is infinite in only two dimensions has no volume, BFB.  V=lwh.  If h is zero, V is zero.  Three dimensions are required for volume, and nothing that is infinite in three dimensions has a "surface".

 

Its all metaphysical anyway ... the physical descriptors are just analogies created by the mind of the characters to articulate something that is unexplainable in words.  Its not like saidin is actually a lake somewhere.  But the analogy indicates that under normal circumstances, the taint is equally present everywhere on the "surface" of saidin, and so if it is gone anywhere, it is gone everywhere.

 

You misapprehend. You claimed that anything with a surface could not be infinite. This is incorrect. Not only could it have infinite depth, but it may still be infinite in the two remaining dimensions. The "classic" example being, I suppose, semi-infinite planes such as are studied in differential equations with Laplace and Fourier transforms. There is a single, defined boundary- but the plane is infinite in remaining dimensions. An infinite volume can indeed have clearly defined surfaces, which was my point.

[RobertAlexWillis]

An infinite volume can indeed have clearly defined surfaces, which was my point.

 

You misapprehend.  A volume that exists in three dimensions cannot have a surface that extends infinitely in two dimensions, because three dimensional space is curved.  Anything that is infinite in two dimensions cannot have a third unless it is infinite as well.  If the volume is infinite, then there is no "surface".  If there is a surface, then there exists an area that is not included in the volume, and it is not infinite. 

 

Purely two-dimensional constructs have no surface, and no volume.  They look like they do in geometry books, because you can't actually draw anything in only two dimensions, but in the physical sense, nothing purely two-dimensional actually exists in our universe.

 

Also, if the "surface" of saidin were could somehow be infinite in two dimensions, while having finite depth, the taint covering it would have to be infinite in those same dimensions (depite its finite depth), and so would itself be infinite.  And Rand would be dead of exhaustion a couple of miles from Shadar Logoth, without having made any measurable impact on the taint.

 

And you missed the other point.  None of this has to do with theoretical physics, it has to do with an analogy created in the minds of the persons whose POVs we are reading, Rand's in this particular case.  Clearly, he is thinking of this "surface" in massive, but ultimately finite, proportions.

[BrainFireBob]

An infinite volume can indeed have clearly defined surfaces, which was my point.

 

Anything that is infinite in two dimensions cannot have a third unless it is infinite as well.  If the volume is infinite, then there is no "surface".  If there is a surface, then there exists an area that is not included in the volume, and it is not infinite. 

 

Incorrect. You are confusing "infinite in volume" with some version of "completing spanning all space." That is emphatically not the definition of infinite, which means boundless, yes, but in a directional manner.

 

And where are you pulling that three space is curved? Space-time is curved because of the light cones, but that's a different thing entirely. We're talking theoretical geometry, and flatly, it takes two boundaries for a dimension to be limited, not one. Even if one was sufficient, you still can have infinite expansion in the other two.

 

Even if saidin truly is infinite, that does not mean a finite amount of taint cannot cover it, one of the paradoxes of mathematics. It'd simply be an infinitely thin layer. In the "real world", which is discrete, this is not achievable. In the theoretical realm of mathematics, these things are allowed to be continuous.

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Honestly guys, I don't think that RJ himself thought too much about how he described saidin. I would stick to the idea that they (the characters) are trying to explain something that can't be accurately put into words.

[lou]

it always comes to an argument in semantics....sighs

[Guest cwestervelt]

it always comes to an argument in semantics....sighs

 

Of course it does.  Anytime two or more people see/hear/read the same thing, you get individual interpretation.  You can't avoid semantics.

[ironcross]

firstly a line in infenent, if i remember my 1st grade math corectly.  a lne drawn on a paper extends in either direction forever, it never stops, yet it dose have limmits set around it. for example if i drew a horizontil line across this page then it would continue on to infinity in either direction, but would not extend any more twords the top or bottum of the page, nore would it extend twords or away from the person looking at it.

 

secoundly a question.  suposing there was a minute amount of tain left could it be like the ways?  they were once clean and bright, and now the taint on them has made them wholey evil. could not the tain on saidin grow slowly like that?  it might be clean enuph now to where to were no one can detect its presence but could it grow back?

 

secound question.  dose the weakening of saidar mean that wemon channlers are going to lose the ability to channle?  is it posible that by destroying the female choden chal that they inadvertently caused a leak or block to the female halve of the source? 

[Guest cwestervelt]

Some people believe that the ability to channel will die out during the next Age.  What, if any, weakening of Saidar has happened is questionable.  The wards that failed do not necessarily mean that Saidar has weakened, just that they may have been tampered with.

 

There has been no indications that I can recall where Aes Sedai have been finding it difficult to do things with Saidar.  Except for the farm outside Ebou Dar where they used the Bowl of the Winds.  Both Saidar and Saidin were strange there but that was because of them nearly overloading the Bowl.

[Charlz Guybon]

Honestly guys, I don't think that RJ himself thought too much about how he described saidin. I would stick to the idea that they (the characters) are trying to explain something that can't be accurately put into words.

Yeah, I doubt that Rand knows basic Algebra, let alone Calculus. Moridin might, but if so, he's the only one alive who does.