Rand and the Third Man *****(KoD spoilers)*****

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, keeping in mind that there are only at most 2 months before the Last Battle, this must happen early on in A Memory of Light. Also, the Black Tower showdown is probably happening in the early chapters as well.

 

Also, I'm seriously wondering if they will capture Rand. I would think their aim would be to kill him, and not to capture him.

 

Also, surely he will aim to kill as well, this time, even if they are women. He knows that he must be hard.

 

 

[Charlz Guybon]

it could bring up uncomfortable questions about how he knew it was her, etc.  We saw where that question led once already.

 

Cadsuane is likely well known among borderlanders, if she says it's so, I can't see them asking any questions.

[Luckers]

Also, I'm seriously wondering if they will capture Rand. I would think their aim would be to kill him, and not to capture him.

 

As thing stands the Shadow is under standing orders to capture Rand, and to not kill him under any circumstances.

 

Also, surely he will aim to kill as well, this time, even if they are women. He knows that he must be hard.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not... i think not. Either way i dont think he'll nessasarily have a choice

 

Edit: Even I couldn't tell what i was saying there.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

it could bring up uncomfortable questions about how he knew it was her, etc.  We saw where that question led once already.

 

Cadsuane is likely well known among borderlanders, if she says it's so, I can't see them asking any questions.

 

In that case, would it actually matter if Rand brought Semi along, so long as he brought Cadsuane with him to confirm his capture of the Forsaken?

 

Also, Luckers, Moridin told the Chosen to kill Rand, if they must, in Winter's Heart. And he sent Slayer after him in an assassination attempt. I was under the impression that Moridin had not rescinded that order.

 

And wouldn't it seem prudent for them to kill Rand? After all, with the chance of him escaping yet again, so close to the Last Battle, wouldn't it be better to end the threat now?

 

I would think that Moridin has given up on trying to convert him, though perhaps with the "13" Aes Sedai, there might be a plan to use the 13 X 13 circle to forcibly convert him...

[Luckers]

Also, Luckers, Moridin told the Chosen to kill Rand, if they must, in Winter's Heart. And he sent Slayer after him in an assassination attempt. I was under the impression that Moridin had not rescinded that order.

 

And wouldn't it seem prudent for them to kill Rand? After all, with the chance of him escaping yet again, so close to the Last Battle, wouldn't it be better to end the threat now?

 

I would think that Moridin has given up on trying to convert him, though perhaps with the "13" Aes Sedai, there might be a plan to use the 13 X 13 circle to forcibly convert him...

 

He rescinded the order in KoD, during the dream-meeting. He told them to direct their attentions to the other ta'veren but that they were not to kill Rand. The common belief for this is that it is not Shadow-policy, but rather Moridin himself... we believe that he rescinded the order because he percieved the link between himself and Rand, and is concerned over the effects Rand's death would have on him.

 

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Then perhaps, as I mentioned, the idea is to forcibly convert Rand using the 13 X 13 link.

[Charlz Guybon]

it could bring up uncomfortable questions about how he knew it was her, etc.  We saw where that question led once already.

 

Cadsuane is likely well known among borderlanders, if she says it's so, I can't see them asking any questions.

 

In that case, would it actually matter if Rand brought Semi along, so long as he brought Cadsuane with him to confirm his capture of the Forsaken?

 

That's true, however, with Cadsuane there, and Semirhage not, it just gives more advantage to Rand in any confrontation with the Borderland sisters.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I just can't envision how this scenario will possibly play out. I mean, Rand has just escaped a capture attempt, and he was held in a box after being captured at Caemlyn, so you would think he would be wary.

 

However, by the same token, Demandred should have learned enough from the failings of the other Chosen, and he should realize that Rand is not to be underestimated.

 

And it would seem their aim may be to convert him to the dark.

 

Add the borderlanders to the mix, who know nothing of the plot yet constitute a very large force, and Perrin, and the whole situation is a big mess.

 

Plus, I simply think the capture thing has been a bit overdone. RJ is going to have to up the stakes on this one if he wants it to be realistic. We've seen Egwene captured by the Seanchan, and now held in the Tower, we've seen Rand captured in Caemlyn, we've seen another attempted capture of Rand, we've seen the capture of Faile, Moiraine has been held by the 'finns for the space of 5 books, and she will have to be rescued like all the others (though her situation is a little different since we don't know much about what happened after entering the ter'angreal). There have been countless captures and releases and rescue attempts.

 

This one has to be different, to be fresh. People have to die. Specifically, at least Tenobia. Perhaps Bashere and Cadsuane, though we will see, won't we?

[Luckers]

It does seem likely that Bashere is going to die, as well as Tenobia, but there is not direct evidence that Cadsuane must die... though i do think that she WILL die, its possible she might even foreswear the oaths and live another 350 years.

 

As for Rand being captured... i think the true cause will be Rand's overconfidence. Having just reached a treaty with Tuon i think he'll be thrilled with success and move straight on to meet with the Borderlanders, without appropriate security or concideration.

 

It's not like the Dragon should really have anything to fear from the Borderlanders....

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

As for Rand being captured... i think the true cause will be Rand's overconfidence. Having just reached a treaty with Tuon i think he'll be thrilled with success and move straight on to meet with the Borderlanders, without appropriate security or concideration.

 

While I agree that is entirely possible, if that is what happens, I would conceive a great desire to smack Rand about for a few hours.  Hard.

 

That kind of thinking is exactly what got him the second half of the wound in his side.

[Darkness Incarnated]

But how could Rand possibly think that an army that size is a show of good will? Rulers wanting to meet him is nothing unusual, and it's understandable that they may want to come with an escort. But an escort that size should make a blind man pause (pun intended). Rand knows rulers are very suspicious of him (to put it mildly), and though Borderlanders are somewhat more sensible than others, they are still rulers.

 

He may think that his ta'verness is working, and decide to proceed immediately to meeting them, but as Robert said, that sort of thinking already has proven to be troublesome. Somehow I think that would not really be good of RJ to have Rand fall into a trap over his own overconfidence, a repeat of a previous mistake, for a guy who supposedly avoides previous errors. And it seems as if Cadsuane will have no say in it, the way things are presented.

 

Maybe as a reader I can see that all signs point to trouble heading their way, but Rand & Co. should be able to see some them.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

This close to the Last Battle, if something like this happens, how can anyone teach him laughter and tears? He would be so hard on the inside. He has already gotten to the point where he doesn't even feel losing his hand (he was over it the moment it happened).

[Darkness Incarnated]

That's one reason why I find it hard to understand how Cadsuane is going to teach him [and the Asha'man] whatever she's supposed to, whether laughter and tears or something else. Rand's mental state took some time to become what it is, she can't just press a big red button, et voilà! Rand is back to normal. Not to mention he's resisting her, or the way she goes at it. I mean, Rand's case would baffle Graendal, but Cadsuane thinks she can fix it?  ???

Anyway, that's an entirely different subject altogether.

*swings a watch on a cord in front of your eyes. 'You didn't read anything about Cadsuane in this post. Nothing at all'. The seance is over*

 

;D

[lou]

rand may very well learn laughter and tears at the birth of his children. he hasnt left his heart behind at all. that is the reason he lost his hand, he knew min was behind him and to avoid the blast, he would have had to sacrifice a woman he loved. rand will never do that.his heart still beats.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I could easily see that. I've actually wondered it myself many times, yet I'm not sure there is enough time for Elayne to give birth to her children before the Last Battle.

[RobertAlexWillis]

This close to the Last Battle, if something like this happens, how can anyone teach him laughter and tears?

 

Moiraine's return, of course.  Why do you think Min's viewing said Rand would "almost certainly fail" without her?  Because her return is pretty much the only thing that can bring him back.  She is a microcosm of all the women who have died for him, in that he could have saved her, and did not, and that she died willingly, to save him.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I actually posted something theorizing much the same.

 

She tops his list of dead females. When she reappears, the wall he has built around him will crumble.

 

But I still think the capture angle has been a little overused.

[DragonSpawn]

Okay, guys, I’ve been developing this theory ever since Knife of Dreams, and I wanted to see how you guys felt about it. To further my theory, I will use quotes from Min, in regards to her viewings of Rand.

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn't." (ACoS, Ch. 33).

 

I had previously assumed that this must be Lews Therin. However, with the revelation in KoD that Moridin is the Third Man in Rand’s head, I’ve begun to think that it refers to him.

 

"Rand, I like Alivia. I do, even if she does make Nynaeve have kittens left and right. But she is going to kill you." (WH, Ch. 25).

 

Min’s vision points to Alivia “helping” Rand die, however at this time, she interprets it as “killing” him, because she doesn’t see how there would be any difference. But in my view, this makes a whole lot of difference.

 

"...three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood...” (TEotW, Ch. 15).

 

From this vision, it appears that Rand dies at the Last battle, and the three women would be his three loves.

 

Now for the theory:

 

Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, and uses the link in his head with Moridin, the link forged by the crossing of their balefires, to insert himself into Moridin’s body.  Alivia balefires Rand’s old body while Lews Therin and Ishy are fighting for control.

 

And problem solved. Rand’s body dies, so all the nobility and whatnot assume he is dead. He gets a healthy body, one that has two hands (which means he is back to being a badass blademaster), one that doesn’t get queasy/dizzy when he tries to touch saidin, and no wounds that can’t be healed.

 

And since everyone saw Rand die, he has the ability to live a normal life once more, like he has always wanted. Remember, Rand never wanted to be the Dragon, or to be a lord. He just wanted to live a peaceful life in Two Rivers. But now, he can live in quiet, and resume a low-key life.

 

One of the ways I look at it is this: Rand’s body is broken.  He can barely touch saidin, and every time he does, Lews Therin fights him for control of it. He can’t possibly do much of anything at the Last Battle in his present condition; he would be a liability more than anything else.

 

But after becoming Moridin, he can use the TP to seal up the Dark One’s bore, since Moridin, being Nae’blis, would have access to that. And unlike the OP seals, which were slowly worn down with the DO’s True Power, the DO won’t be able to break free of his prison if it is sealed with the True Power.

 

I’ve always had a theory that the cuendillar seals were broken by the True Power, because the TP, unlike the OP, should be able to damage them.

 

Anyways, that’s my theory. What do you guys think?

 

 

 

      Wouldn't his "new" body even though it has two hands be wrecked by it's addiction to the True Power? From what I understood it's a bodily addiction, hence the saa in the eyes. Meaning when Rand takes the body, and no longer regularly supplies it with the True Power, it will go into withdrawal. And from what we know the True Power is the most addictive thing in Randland, supposedly more than the One Power. Seeing how we see men and women lose the will to live and/or commit suicide after losing touch to the one power how do you think Rand's body is going to feel after losing contact to the True Power? It will be a wreck, probably pale and shivering the whole time, and eventually dieing of withdrawal while wasting away in a sickbed.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

We don't really know that much about it though. We know it is more addicting than the OP, but we haven't seen someone go without using the OP, particularly because it is too strong an urge.

 

So perhaps it would create problems, I don't know. I'm not in the position to answer that question.

 

I'll have to think on it.

 

I had already thought about the saa, but the addiction thing is a whole other idea.

 

There's a strange relationship between the body and the soul in Randland, so perhaps Moridin would carry his addiction with him.

[Luckers]

And if he doesn't, so what? Rand goes through detox and withdrawal? That could even explain for why he disapears long enough after the Last Battle to be thought dead.

[DragonSpawn]

We don't really know that much about it though. We know it is more addicting than the OP, but we haven't seen someone go without using the OP, particularly because it is too strong an urge.

 

So perhaps it would create problems, I don't know. I'm not in the position to answer that question.

 

I'll have to think on it.

 

I had already thought about the saa, but the addiction thing is a whole other idea.

 

There's a strange relationship between the body and the soul in Randland, so perhaps Moridin would carry his addiction with him.

 

  How could Moridin carry the addiction with him? The presence of Saa shows that the addiction is not a mental one but a physical addiction. Such as when a coke addict snorts his pupils will dilate and muscles around the eyes will relax and in some people the eyes become bloodshot. Since the Saa are present in his eyes it is only natural to assume it is physical.

  And so Rand would be trading his slightly battered and crippled body for that of a drug wrecked junkie one. A pretty bad trade if you ask me.

    Also considerring how fearful most of the other Forsaken are of the True Power, and the only negative aspect we know of it is that it is highly addictive. Supposedly the most addictive substance. So Rand who has no connection to the DO and so no source for the TP would probably die much quicker than severed AS of strong withdrawal symptons. Even if not he would become very instable mentally craving with every cell in his body every second of his life something so bad he would do anything for it,.. but even so he can never get it. Considerring his current mental state this would probably end in a disaster.

 

 

    E.T  yes we have seen people unable to go without the OP. Remember in the Aes Sedai in Far Madding, they keep going out once a day for horse rides inorder to fill themselves with the power. For people as proud and haughty as Aes Sedai how do you think they appreciate showing such weakness in front of the leaders of Far Madding?

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I meant that we hadn't seen someone deprived of the OP for a large length of time.

 

The presence of Saa shows that the addiction is not a mental one but a physical addiction.

 

Since we know (within the context of the books) that the mental aspect of a person is strongly tied to the spiritual, and that the physical is really just a manifestation of the mental, then perhaps a new mentality might not feel the same addiction.

 

Honestly, I don't even know if the addiction would remain if one person swapped brains with an addict.

 

Because it's a psychological dependency, so what happens when a new psychological makeup is introduced to the body?

[Littel me]

Just a thougth:

 

The eye are the mirrors of the soul  -  isn't this a saying??

 

Maby the adiction is metal, but as the TP slowly consuming the soul and the soul gets more and more black(this is pure spekulation - but TP is direct form DO) this is reflacte in the soul mirror aka the eyes as the black Saa.

 

Or is this total insane?   

[Guest cwestervelt]

Actually, I think it is that they eye is the window to the soul.

[Seriodor]

um i only read up to page two of this topic but, i think that rand definetly wouldnt get access to the true power, or moridins addiction to it, because anything having to do with the power at all is connected to the soul displayed by the fact that Aran'gar(Belthamael) is able to use saidan in the body of a female.