My Re-Read: Knife of Dreams (not to be confused with Swords, Daggers, etc.)

[WoTwasThat]

I made it through Crossroads. It was terrible. I remember Knife being an improvement. So far we’re off to a slowwww start.

 

Ok, the Prologue at least starts with a banger. Galad does something cool. Then, even cooler, he tells the Children “yeah we got bigger fish to fry right now than hating witches.” Neat to see a rare moment of common sense.

 

Then we’ve got Ituralde doing Seanchan stuff in Tarabon that nobody cares about. But at least it’s an action scene.

 

Suroth is stressed. Really don’t care. She meets Semirhage. Still having trouble caring. I’ve just lost interest in the whole Seanchan thing a while ago.

 

Then we get some Red Ajah sisters talking. K. Can’t even be bothered with their names because I’ll forget anyway. But the new “Highest” swears like Uno which kinda funny. They’re fretting over Asha’man again. Whatever. 
 

Alviarin is still sniveling. Whatever.

 

Galina meets Perrin briefly. Forgot all about that. Gotta say, I’m surprised how the Faile captivity plot line is more interesting than I remember. Although that may just be relative to all the White Tower tedium.

 

And then Egwene. Sigh. I just can’t buy it. She feels like she’s “coming home” to the White Tower. How many days has she actually spent at the Tower - less than a month?? Serious question. Anybody do the math? And this 18yo girl is suddenly far more mature and confident than women 10x her age? I mean, this storyline is about as close as WOT gets to Young Adult drek and it really sucks.

 

The ability for Egwene to keep up with email via TAR is an interesting angle… but then rather than using her inside info to plot a White Tower takedown via gateway (that would have been COOL) she’s all like “nah - I got this handled with my 18yo powers of PERSUASION.” Dumb. This story line is not as bad as Andoran Succession. But it’s close. 

[chiamac]

1 hour ago, WoTwasThat said:

And then Egwene. Sigh. I just can’t buy it. She feels like she’s “coming home” to the White Tower. How many days has she actually spent at the Tower - less than a month?? Serious question. Anybody do the math? And this 18yo girl is suddenly far more mature and confident than women 10x her age? I mean, this storyline is about as close as WOT gets to Young Adult drek and it really sucks.

 

I get what RJ was going for, even if it's a little cliche for a short story and doesn't fit in the longer story. We have these lost, "old blood" folks in the Two Rivers that have been found, and are destined to greatness in the greater world. The problem was RJ took way too long to get to the point, and as you said, it seems odd when you really sit down and think about it. 

On a similar note kind of. It's like when Nynaeve is finally raised to the shall. Looking back it's pretty petty, since she totally has the powers to have earned it, knows the weaves, and helped cleanse the male power. I get that they wanted the scene it eventually was, but it really didn't need to happen. 

I finally did like that use of TAR. It's a nice change from the book(s) learning about it, and then the book(s) of everyone taking a gateway everywhere... So it's nice to see one of RJ's ideas mature and be used pretty reasonably.  

  

[WoTwasThat]

4 hours ago, chiamac said:

I get what RJ was going for, even if it's a little cliche for a short story and doesn't fit in the longer story. We have these lost, "old blood" folks in the Two Rivers that have been found, and are destined to greatness in the greater world. The problem was RJ took way too long to get to the point, and as you said, it seems odd when you really sit down and think about it. 

On a similar note kind of. It's like when Nynaeve is finally raised to the shall. Looking back it's pretty petty, since she totally has the powers to have earned it, knows the weaves, and helped cleanse the male power. I get that they wanted the scene it eventually was, but it really didn't need to happen.

Yeah. I guess it would have made more sense to just make Eg a TV, but evidently that’s not the case. Thing is, I liked her character initially. I liked her in the early books from EF to the Seanchan captivity to her time with the Wise Ones in the waste. Her apprenticeship to the Dreamwalkers seemed real. It seemed earned.

 

I could even go along with the Salidar faction naming her Amyrlin for purposes of manipulation, although that’s a reallll stretch. But pretty much everything else from then on is just annoying as hell. She’s awfully passionate all of a sudden about a White Tower that she has lived in for all of maybe a month or two and has actually spent most of her time with the Aes Sedai finding any possible reason to avoid. And then all these women who are vastly older and more experienced than her are just like “oh wow, you’re so strong and wise.” And Elaida is like “rather than executing you like I was gonna do with Siuan, I’m just gonna let you walk about and spread your dissension.” And this all came from RJ - not Sanderson!

 

It’s YA-caliber nonsense, but even Harry Potter didn’t have any pretensions to be headmaster of Hogwarts. Honestly, the Elayne and Egwene storylines have gotten more annoying to me - not less - during this read-through. Nynaeve, surprisingly, has way elevated herself.

 

It’s so bad that I’d much rather read about Mat/Tuon or Faile’s captivity.

 

By the way, I found this thread on Dragonmount from over a decade ago - many of the posts here describe my exact frustration.

 

 

[JyP]

Reading the thread above, I guess one part is not very much discussed : yes Egwene was an ambitious young woman when leaving the Two Rivers, and then encountered Moiraine which was an ideal Aes Sedai - which could have influenced her. At this time, she has no strong beliefs about the White Tower, she still is somewhat overwhelmed by the White Tower - maybe thinking all Aes Sedai are like Moiraine - and that she can help Rand from within.

 

Then she is tricked by Liandrin, and becomes a damane under the Seanchan at Falme - unlike Elayne and Nynaeve. She is tortured psychologically, and we know that even experienced Aes Sedai are broken under this kind of treatment. I think she was a damane for weeks or even months.

 

Now imagine the impact of such torture on a 18 years old. Her survival instincts say that she doesn't want to be collared anymore. What is the best, no, the only way to do so ? Only by having a strong White Tower to counter the Seanchan.

So yes, Egwene is seen as very driven about the White Tower, unlike the other protagonists. But she was also traumatized in ways that no other protagonists encounter - until Rand is forced in a box.

[chiamac]

On 10/27/2025 at 3:14 PM, WoTwasThat said:

Yeah. I guess it would have made more sense to just make Eg a TV, but evidently that’s not the case. Thing is, I liked her character initially. I liked her in the early books from EF to the Seanchan captivity to her time with the Wise Ones in the waste. Her apprenticeship to the Dreamwalkers seemed real. It seemed earned.

 

I was going to say he saved TV for those who couldn't channel, but then Rand is one... I thought originally, someone commented that he wanted MORE TV's from the Two Rivers, and was talked out of it. Maybe in re-doing that he then removed the girls from it. Because after what Mat and Perrin turn into, the girls should totally be included on that level, and actually more of them. But, he didn't, and we have what we have. 

I do wonder where RJ took his detour away from an urgent last battle. Because we spend a lot of time with her, as you said, with the Seanchan and with the Wise Ones. Some books read more as a manual to the world of dreams than anything else. Can't really do an immediate "last battle" if you want to go and explore other stuff. 

Anyway, there were some younger Amyrlins and we read that their history has been cherry picked a little to what regular rand and file Aes Sedai learn about or know. So maybe she isn't as unusual, and it is a political position with the reasons for choosing her explained. She and friends were away when the split happened. But yeah, her ownership seems a bit odd thinking back at it. Which is why she should fall under the TV umbrella, and then it would all make more sense. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

On 10/27/2025 at 2:19 PM, WoTwasThat said:

And then Egwene. Sigh. I just can’t buy it. She feels like she’s “coming home” to the White Tower. How many days has she actually spent at the Tower - less than a month??

She would have been in the tower for up to 6 months in The Great Hunt (leaving Fal Dara in late spring for a very rapid trip to the tower and not being tricked into the ways until early autumn).  I know it does not feel like it compared to the hunters POV but that is due to the time lapse during their portal stone trip.  Then again in the tower for a shorter period (up to a month) in The Dragon Reborn and also thinking of herself as Aes Sedai (or AS affiliated) from being guided by Moiraine in Eye of the World up to being apprentice to the wise ones and then again from traveling to Salidar - overall it feels like long enough to belong, especially as the tower would be attempting to indoctrinate any novice to reduce any attempts to leave.

[chiamac]

On 10/27/2025 at 3:14 PM, WoTwasThat said:

It’s YA-caliber nonsense, but even Harry Potter didn’t have any pretensions to be headmaster of Hogwarts. Honestly, the Elayne and Egwene storylines have gotten more annoying to me - not less - during this read-through. Nynaeve, surprisingly, has way elevated herself.

 

Sorry to pop up again here, I'm at the disadvantage of not having read the complete series, and am going through the last few books now, and the prequel after that. 

I'm in Towers of Midnight just after the "battle" in TEL. Shortly after Perrin and Egwene meet, she basically has a battle of wits with a forsaken and ends up besting them. A few things were interesting from that battle and encounter. She realizes that she IS the White Tower and IS the Amyrlin, and then makes a comparison between what she is going through in TEL and the test for the shawl that she had been a part of but never did. I thought that was a great way to elevate her up, have her turn the corner, and really become what she had been saying she was. 

Still, maybe this could have come sooner, or she could have been written a little different so that there wouldn't be an opinion that she didn't earn anything or shouldn't be that connected. Also my comment about extending TV status to her and a few others stands, that would go along way to helping all of this. 

But, when Sanderson is on he is on, either with notes from RJ or not. Having Egwene go through that, is a time when he was on. At the same time, I still don't know why the story needed Slayer and the Wolf Dream hasn't really paid off, I get the encounter between Perrin and Egwene and that TEL is the same for everyone, but still Slayer is a bit much. 

[Asthereal]

Knife of Dreams has great payoffs in the second half, but I too found the first half to not be significantly better than Crossroads. The second half was a hoot though, which made it worth fighting through the slow start.

 

As to your topic title: there's a lot to criticize about the book titles in WoT. In fact, I dislike most of them. The Lord of Chaos gets like three paragraphs of page time in Lord of Chaos, there's no Heaven in Fires of Heaven, what Path of which Daggers? I vaguely remember Towers of Midnight being mentioned but they don't play a significant role in the story at all. I still don't know what the Eye of the World was, exactly, and it took WAY too long to find out why we needed to go there (find out for sure who the Dragon Reborn is, without springing the obvious trap at Tear). Also, The Dragon Reborn is the first book that we experience mostly from a different point of view than that of the actual Dragon Reborn. That was weird.

 

Okay, rant over. A Memory of Light in my opinion is the most beautiful book title ever. Most is forgiven. 🙂 

[WoTwasThat]

12 hours ago, Asthereal said:

Knife of Dreams has great payoffs in the second half, but I too found the first half to not be significantly better than Crossroads. The second half was a hoot though, which made it worth fighting through the slow start.

 

As to your topic title: there's a lot to criticize about the book titles in WoT. In fact, I dislike most of them. The Lord of Chaos gets like three paragraphs of page time in Lord of Chaos, there's no Heaven in Fires of Heaven, what Path of which Daggers? I vaguely remember Towers of Midnight being mentioned but they don't play a significant role in the story at all. I still don't know what the Eye of the World was, exactly, and it took WAY too long to find out why we needed to go there (find out for sure who the Dragon Reborn is, without springing the obvious trap at Tear). Also, The Dragon Reborn is the first book that we experience mostly from a different point of view than that of the actual Dragon Reborn. That was weird.

 

Okay, rant over. A Memory of Light in my opinion is the most beautiful book title ever. Most is forgiven. 🙂 

Yeah, I’ve seriously bogged down early in POD. It’s not good. Not any better than COT. 

[WoTwasThat]

Well my re-read of Knife has obviously slowed to a crawl. Much like this series. I’m a third of the way in and almost nothing has happened. It’s chapter after chapter of Mat and Tuon. Which is mildly entertaining because it’s Mat. But time has apparently ceased to exist in Randland. All that urgency about TG seems a bit misplaced as Mat and Tuon slog through Altara. I don’t even know where Altara is anymore. I. Just. Don’t. CARE.

 

And now we’re at Moraine’s letter, which should be a big moment. And my brain is so numb at this point that I’m basically “meh, ok, another side quest that’ll take… four or five more books?”  

[chiamac]

On 11/15/2025 at 12:08 PM, WoTwasThat said:

Well my re-read of Knife has obviously slowed to a crawl. Much like this series. I’m a third of the way in and almost nothing has happened. It’s chapter after chapter of Mat and Tuon. Which is mildly entertaining because it’s Mat. But time has apparently ceased to exist in Randland. All that urgency about TG seems a bit misplaced as Mat and Tuon slog through Altara. I don’t even know where Altara is anymore. I. Just. Don’t. CARE.

 

And now we’re at Moraine’s letter, which should be a big moment. And my brain is so numb at this point that I’m basically “meh, ok, another side quest that’ll take… four or five more books?”  

Some of their story was pretty fun, or how they happened into eachother and then escaped. But yeah mostly agree. 

The letter didn't make sense to me, as well as when Moraine comes back. She had been gone for what seemed to be so long, without (at least to me) a sense of time of how long she was actually one, that her coming back and that letter just seemed out of place. I do get where RJ and BS were going with that, and I like the concept of Mat going back to get her and how he was setup for it. But, like a lot with this story, the timing and lack of urgency or a sense of time is way off. 

I mean, if I recall somewhat correctly, the last 3 books happen over a month or two with the 1 month deadline happening soon once the BS books start. So what you're reading can only be a handful of months away from the end, and RJ just never gives a sense of that. 

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

The content of the letter itself explains the apparent lack of urgency - Moiraine explicitly instructs Thom that Mat has to ask about the letter before being shown it.  Thom flaunts the letter in front of Mat for a long time before he asks.  When re-reading the books you should get a sense of Thom's frustration at the delay which he has to hide from Mat since the best way to get him to ask is to make him think you do no want him to ask.

[chiamac]

15 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

The content of the letter itself explains the apparent lack of urgency - Moiraine explicitly instructs Thom that Mat has to ask about the letter before being shown it.  Thom flaunts the letter in front of Mat for a long time before he asks.  When re-reading the books you should get a sense of Thom's frustration at the delay which he has to hide from Mat since the best way to get him to ask is to make him think you do no want him to ask.

Well just the whole lack of urgency between she disappears, to when they finally gear up and go to rescue her. It seems years, at least to me, to the point where I don't know why or remember why Mat feels any connection with her. 

The character of Mat being Mat and not wanting to read that letter (and another one later iirc) is different. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes, but that is the foretelling/prophecy/TAR for you. She knows any future where Mat is shown it rather than asks to see it ends badly, so everything has to wait until he does. 

 

I'm not a big fan of story being driven by 100% ability to read the future. It feels a bit of a narrative cop out tbh. 

Edited November 26 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[chiamac]

6 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I'm not a big fan of story being driven by 100% ability to read the future. It feels a bit of a narrative cop out tbh. 

 

Honestly though, this is something RJ does well in the books. I think it helps that we got to see Mat getting his prophecy and abilities, so we know what others may have got as far as answers. So I don't mind that part at all. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 hour ago, chiamac said:

 

Honestly though, this is something RJ does well in the books. I think it helps that we got to see Mat getting his prophecy and abilities, so we know what others may have got as far as answers. So I don't mind that part at all. 

Yes, Mat's isn't too bad. That is interesting. But I didn't like that we didn't see what happened to Rand, when that was so important for the motivations for the "main" character, which I think pushed Rand into the background except the "soap opera" aspects of his life. 

 

And I think also as learn more about the Age of Legends that it gets a bit silly, that everything is being done due to Foretelling, the Eye, Rhuidean, everything is set up by prophecy, which is a self fulfilling one. There seems to be very few bits that happen organically, or at least, a lot less than it appears at first. But that is just one of my pet peeves. 

[chiamac]

31 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

And I think also as learn more about the Age of Legends that it gets a bit silly, that everything is being done due to Foretelling, the Eye, Rhuidean, everything is set up by prophecy, which is a self fulfilling one. There seems to be very few bits that happen organically, or at least, a lot less than it appears at first. But that is just one of my pet peeves. 

 

Kind of in hindsight as far as how I'm almost finished with the books. 

None of the prophecy makes sense. I mean maybe, as you said, if they were using these tools, but then why wouldn't they have written it down? Then with Rands memories, he would have been the start of some of these prophecies, but doesn't know a different way to close the prison off the bat? Callendar (spelling?) being created, but no one thought of at the time for how it "needs" to be used, but created it anyway? It's just all covenant, and kind of plot armor in a way. 

Don't get me wrong, I still like the story, but as I've said before here a few times it just doesn't go that deep and it's best taken as a daily soap opera or something than a complete tight story. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Yes I think the strength of the story is its scale and width. And I think Jordan was a master at artful handwaving to suggest even more depth and detail, while leaving everything vague enough most of that detail comes from the reader. Given how expansive the books are that is quite an achievement. 

 

Like Elgee says, the magic system feels real. The place feels real, the characters feel real in a way that excessive attention to detail wouldn't manage. Jordan was a master story-teller in my opinion. 

[WoTwasThat]

One chapter of Perrin. He’s grocery shopping. With Seanchan. Man am I weary of the Seanchan. This series really bogged down with Crossroads and it hasn’t gotten markedly better yet as I approach halfway into Knife.

 

One chapter of Perrin and then it’s back to… Elayne Succession. Gah my eyes!!! Will the torment end??

[chiamac]

On 12/1/2025 at 6:30 PM, WoTwasThat said:

One chapter of Perrin and then it’s back to… Elayne Succession. Gah my eyes!!! Will the torment end??

 

I can see why RJ set things up the way he did, then how Sanderson wrapped it up. It just seemed RJ didn't know how he wanted to get there, and yeah, those chapters and that journey took way way longer than it really needed to. 

[WoTwasThat]

5 hours ago, chiamac said:

 

I can see why RJ set things up the way he did, then how Sanderson wrapped it up. It just seemed RJ didn't know how he wanted to get there, and yeah, those chapters and that journey took way way longer than it really needed to. 

I think RJ lost “the drive” to move this series forward as his health declined. Even though things started slowing down in POD and WH, those books have improved significantly upon re-read. This morass of Crossroads and Knife is really putting a sour taste on the series. And I’ve been reading straight through.

 

Perhaps in a few more years, it would be fun to load the first nine books into AI, pepper in some good excerpts plus a few notes on various storylines (Galad and the Whitecloaks, the Moraine rescue,  The Last Battle, etc.) and give it 2,000 pages to finish out the series. I wonder…