Really Kari?

[bcxanth]

Actually, my agument has nothing to do with if Kari knew at all about the Aiel or about the place of birth. I simply mentioned those points as possible knowledge she may have.  The only piece of information she needed to point our Rand from the others is the only piece of information we know for a fact she had. That Rand was born outside of the Two Rivers.

 

We know that the DO had narrowed down his target to one of three boys, and since the other two were born in the Two Rivers they couldn't have been who the DO was after. The only possibility could have been Rand.  Even before the DO knew that much, when all he knew was that the boy was in the Two Rivers and of a certain age, that information would have been enough to pull the spotlight directly on Rand and no other.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

But, correct me if I'm wrong, at the time of the events of EotW, all three ta'veren's houses were burned down. And all three of them have nightmares, until the DO finds out it is Rand.

 

So what I'm saying is, if the DO had a connection with people related to Rand, Mat, and Perrin, he would have known which one was the Dragon, since the person born outside of the Two Rivers would have to be it.

 

And since he obviously didn't know that, he must not have had connections.

 

 

I must say I'm beginning to agree with you, RAW, about the soul thing.

 

However, I have another possibility to consider:

 

When Rand is in Tarwin's Gap at the end, he hears a voice that says "I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

 

This, at least to me, sounds like the Creator. Now if the Creator said that to Rand, mightn't he have had a hand in some of events that occurred a few pages later?

 

What if Ishamael had used an illusion to deceive Rand, getting him to think it was Kari, only that the Creator interjected Kari's actual soul into the place, in order to speak to Rand?

 

Not too likely, and some holes, but possible, maybe.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm afraid I didn't follow you on that last one ...

 

Assuming it is the Creator speaking to Rand (which is probably right), then he had just finished saying "I WILL TAKE NO PART."  Then, minutes later, he's tossing a soul into the fray?

 

To quote Bender Bending Rodriguez, "Does not compute."

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Lol. Well, what I interpreted that to mean was that he would not fight the Dark One--he would leave that to the Dragon. I didnt necessarily think it applied to much more than that.

[lou]

the DO did not have any "inside information" (from kari or anyone else)

enter paidan fain.....this was the spy in the midst and a way to the information.

Actually, my agument has nothing to do with if Kari knew at all about the Aiel or about the place of birth. I simply mentioned those points as possible knowledge she may have.  The only piece of information she needed to point our Rand from the others is the only piece of information we know for a fact she had. That Rand was born outside of the Two Rivers.

 

kari would have to have more than "rand was born outside the two rivers" to make him the dragon, for the same reason that rand told taim that it was taim's mistake to claim to be the dragon....prophesy

i think that if the shade of kari was real and not an illusion, she must have been turned at death.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

No, what everyone is saying is that somehow when the Trollocs attacked Emond's Field, they had narrowed it down to three boys, Mat, Perrin, and Rand, who were born within weeks of eachother. Since the Dragon was born on Dragonmount, and Mat and Perrin were born in Two Rivers, if the DO had known that Rand was not born in Two Rivers, he would know he was the Dragon.

 

I have to say Im beginning to agree with the theory that she was somehow lured to the DO after death, at least for a little while.

 

[Safia al-Maaz]

Lured and freed when Rand lost his temper.

[Guest Fire Lord]

Well, the one thing I still don't understand is where the souls go after people bit it.

 

It seems as if the Dark One can access that place somewhat easily, because for him to capture Kari's soul, it had to be way after the series had started, when he had some very strong suspicions that Rand was the Dragon Reborn. (Frankly, him channeling was what set him distinctly aside from Perrin and Mat, unless there is something else I miss that the Dark One picked up).

 

I say this because, had the Dark One taken hold of her soul soon after her death (when Rand was still a child), then he would have had some inside info on what was going on, i.e. that there was some peculiarity to Rand other than being born outside the Two Rivers. Since the three boys' houses were attacked, then the DO was not sure.

 

And by what I'm reading, souls are very much alive, otherwise the Dark One would not have been able to talk her into joining him. But another question, what could the DO possibly promise a dead person's alive soul  :'( for that soul to abandon the light? Why hasn't the DO done the same with the Dragon?

Are souls even aware of the Light/Shadow perceptions of the world of the living? Aside from the heroes that hang around in TAR, that is.

 

And, lastly, it seems at that time the DO had a good hold on her, which in my eyes makes her a Darkfriend (though a dead one  :-[). Or was she somehow alive? Because it makes no sense (to me) for Rand to kill her (it looks like that's what he did, and a second death :'( by the way) unless she was alive. Do Darkfriends' souls join go wherever all the others go, or do they remain in the Dark One's clutches? And if balefire is not involved, would the DO loose a grip on a soul that easily?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I'm wondering if everybody goes to TAR when they die. Because, from the appearance of Birgitte, it seems there is a lot more to TAR than we thought. A lot that is hidden.

 

Anyways, what I was wondering was, if Birgitte, being ripped from the Pattern and all, will not be able to be reborn, couldn't someone do that for bad guys? Like you know, find Be'lal or Aginor or Sammael or someone like that and kill them? Wouldnt that be the equivalent of ripping them out? Because if you die in TAR, you are gone forever, correct me if Im wrong. I believe Im right, since the thing with Slayer basically amounts to the wolves not being able to be reborn.

[Darth_Andrea]

I'm almost half convinced that Ishy was the Male Aes`Sedai who was with Lanfear the day they opened the prison. And since in the trolick tounge the name he was using means Heart of the dark, I suspect his original body may have been cast directly into the heart of the DO himself. It may have also given him access to some abilitys of the DO. And I know we will see him again, I think we have already. Taim. I think that Taim's soul was striped out and Ishy put inside. Remember he wasn't killed by Balefire so the DO could easily grab him. And it was weeks after his "death" that Taim was freed from the Red Aja who had him.

 

Darth_Andrea

[RobertAlexWillis]

There is apparently a different "afterlife" for regular people ... only the Heroes wait in Tel'aran'rhiod.  I'll find you a source for that later, but its what Jordan has said.

 

As for Birgitte, there are indications that her thread is already being re-incorporated into its regular weaving cycle.  Min sees future adventures with her and Gaidal; some where she is older, and some where he is older.  So, she is apparently not premanently ripped from her hero cycle.  Whether this is because Moghedien's weave was not as permanently effective as she thought, or because Birgitte's current actions are heroic enough to reattach her, is unclear, at least to me.

 

And, for Darth Andrea ... the male Aes Sedai who helped Mierin (Lanfear) open the Bore was named Beidomon.  Beidomon survived the creation of the Bore, but later committed suicide. 

 

And ... I'm not sure how far you've read, so this might be a spoiler, but Taim is not Ishamael, nor host to Ishy's soul.  Ishamael has been reborn as Moridin, and Moridin is definitely not Taim.

 

Sources for each claim available on request ... I'd almost have to write an appendix for this one ...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Yeah, RAW, I just remembered the QotW addressed that. RJ said that there was a normal afterlife as well.