Olver is Gaidal Cain

[Blade]

hey, if you had taken the time to read my post you would see that I have already said that Olver is not Gaidal Cain. I was just present the point that according to all the information currently given to us, if RJ had no stepped in and explicitly stated that Olver was not Gaidal Cain, it is possible that Olver could be Cain.

[Paradoxic]

I read your last post as saying "maybe he will become gaidal cain the same way someone can become ta'veren" to which I responded with "RJ says no right here". RJ has a reason for Olver that does not involve, in any way, Gaidal Cain's spirit... that's what I'm saying.

[Blade]

hmm...well I just re-read my post and it seems I didn't make it clear enough that I knew Olver wasn't Cain. What I was attempting to point out with my original post was that in theory it was possible for him to be 9 and still be Cain, even though he isn't really.

[Guest Winespring Brother]

Blade, continuing this purely hypothetical idea that Olver could be Cain (which I am neither saying nor implying he is :roll: ), your comparison with ta'veren just doesn't hold. Yes, RJ said that you are not born ta'veren, but becoming one does not change your soul. Its just a focal point for the pattern.

Hypothetical Olver must have been have been born with a soul inside him, otherwise he would have been a Greyman at birth! Say, when Hypothetical Olver reaches 8 years of age, hypothetical Gaidal is spun out once more, how could his soul go into Olver's body? There is already one there!

As far as I can see, only two machinations we have seen could achieve this, and neither is likely. The only incedence of two souls in 1 body is Slayer; a creation of the DO. And no, Lews Therin and Rand are not two souls, but two manifestations of the same soul. Option 2 is for little Olver's soul to be stripped away from his body to be replaced by Gaidal, much like the DO did with Aginor and Belthamel.

So i really hope you aint suggesting sweet little hypothetical Olver and his loveable grin is in fact a creation of the Dark One :P

[Samitsu]

You see Cain once then he is reborn yes. And at the time you see him' date=' Olver is already 9 years old. Since time does not flow backwards, he cannot be a 9 year old boy and just have been born.

 

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain? RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there ...

 

That quote can be found at http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.2_rest-chars/2.2.5_gaidal.html (The link should work if it ever comes back up. The quote is all I can get out of Google.)

 

The point is, the question was directly asked very directly answered question.

 

mh.... i would have expected RAFO for that question...

[buffett97]

Couldn't Gaidal have been dreaming when he/Olver is seen in the dream world? Birgitte mentions that 4 days in the dream world relate to over ten in Elayne's time.

[firheruwen]

I thought I was being clever when I came up with this theory on my own. Apparently it is a popular one, and I think it makes a ton of sense. Basicly all the character established about both of them is the same!!

[rd2000]

I thought I was being clever when I came up with this theory on my own. Apparently it is a popular one' date=' and I think it makes a ton of sense. Basicly all the character established about both of them is the same!![/quote']

 

But, as has already been pointed out ad nauseum, RJ says they are not the same. He even points out why they can't be the same. Please let this theory die.

[firheruwen]

I always suspect authors of long series may change their plans for the characters and plots of their books to avoid theories that people talk about a lot. And he *could* change his mind, or could have changed his mind at some point or something. Despite that interview it is still up in the air until it is written into one of the books, I think.

So no, I will not let it die quite yet.

[MsDanya]

i think we should jsut make a info thread here where it says that Olver is not Gaidal Cain :P :lol: perhaps a sticky one :lol:

[Talya]

Just to add my bit.

I think Olver will be important to the release of Moraine from the Tower as he plays Snakes and foxes which relates to the Finns. He may even end up being the third person with Mat and Thom as he may know how to cheat them! If not as someone else said he may at least be able to get them into the tower.

[Guest Majsju]

i think we should jsut make a info thread here where it says that Olver is not Gaidal Cain :P :lol: perhaps a sticky one :lol:

 

We had that on the old boards, with some of the more popular theories debunked or confirmed. Like Olver=Cain, Taimandred, when Mat actually died etc.

 

Probably a good idea to put one up again, I'll look into it.

Though, there is of course the DM FAQ, people are probably just too lazy to search it before they post.

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/Faq/

[Guest Winespring Brother]

We could rename the whole forum "Olver is not Gaidal Cain and other WoT issues" :lol:

[MsDanya]

lol, good idea Bro..

[Guest Majsju]

No way, if there's any renaming to be done, it'll be "Taimandred is dead and other WOT issues" :D

[Guest Winespring Brother]

:shock: Maybe Demandred is Olver!

[Guest Majsju]

Olvandred?

 

Well, at least it's something new :D

[bcxanth]

C'mon people. Everyone knows that Tam is Gaidal, and that Cenn Buie is Demondred.

[Trib4l]

NO NO NO!!! It's Belandred and Gaidal Taim!

[buffett97]

In TFOH, Birgitte says right after she's ripped out that Gaidal is out there, and that he could be an infant, or even a young boy. Also, ..."But even if I find him, what will he think of a woman more than old enough to be his mother?"

Also in TFOH, it says of Birgitte, "She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In TFOH' date=' Birgitte says right after she's ripped out that Gaidal is out there, and that he could be an infant, or even a young boy. Also, ..."But even if I find him, what will he think of a woman more than old enough to be his mother?"

Also in TFOH, it says of Birgitte, "She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.[/quote']

 

Birgitte was just ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod. She was under a lot of stress at that point and didn't have a waking world time line to establish how much time passed since she last saw Gaidal in Tel'arah'rhiod.

 

I don't see any relevance in the "She was always born after Gaidal;" quote. It doesn't have anything to do with how old Gaidal is at that point. That would only provide an age range to look at if she was reborn through the normal process.

 

Time flows differently in Tel'aran'rhiod but it is also linear. You enter, spend time there, and then come back. Until you come back, you don't have any idea how much time passed in the real world. It might be seconds, it might be years, but it will be later than when you went in. If two people are in Tel'aran'rhiod at the same time, the flow of time will be the same for them. If they exit together, the don't come out at different times in the waking world. We saw Gaidal and Birgitte together and can establish an earliest waking world point for his rebirth. When Birgitte is ripped out, she thinks he is reborn. Assuming that he actually was reborn and not just avoiding her (he appears to be a bit more of a stickler for the rules), that point marks the end of the real world time frame. At the point where Birgitte is ripped out, Gaidal cannot be older than however many weeks or months have passed. He also cannot be younger than the amount of time that passed between when she was ripped out and the current events. Tel'aran'rhiod is the limbo of the Hero's. There is nothing to suggest they go from Tel'aran'rhiod to an intermediate holding tank, then a body.

[MsDanya]

In TFOH' date=' Birgitte says right after she's ripped out that Gaidal is out there, and that he could be an infant, or even a young boy. Also, ..."But even if I find him, what will he think of a woman more than old enough to be his mother?"

Also in TFOH, it says of Birgitte, "She was always born after Gaidal; a year, or five, or ten, but after.[/quote']

 

as cwestervelt wrote (i think, lol) it is true that Brigitte was always born after Gaidal Cain.. she was not born this time, but was ripped out. and Nynaeve (or someone, not sure) saw Gaidal in the dreamworld not long before. that would mean that he could only be so old as there had passed time from he was seen last to now. and that would be (at least atm in the books) a few months old.

[buffett97]

There's no actual representation of how time is different in TAR, only the statement that it is different there. Birgitte dreamed herself into TAR after she was ripped out,although it was as 'herself'. It's only an idea, something to think about.