S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Mailman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 2:00 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Dreams are hugely meaningful precisely because they are a window to the subconscious. 

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If that how you want to view those dreams as a discussion between Lanfear and Rands subconscious then fine. Nothing will convince me that is what we saw or what actually occurred. If his subconscious is what chose to sleep with Lanfear I in no way consider him at fault. 

 

If you were to accept my premiss that those conversations were between two people who were in effect fully conscious and aware would that change your opinion on his at fault level.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 3:12 PM, Mailman said:

would that change your opinion on his at fault level

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Slightly. Any way you cut it, he’s being victimized by Lanfear’s invasion of his consciousness and her purposeful and effective manipulation. 
 

Also, given the mechanics of T’a’R, I’m not certain he could rebuff Lanfear without more training. (If she wants them to be naked in bed together, they will be.) I guess he can choose to kiss her or not, but she is effectively in control of their location, their clothing, the lighting, the atmosphere, all of it. 
 

He has slightly more agency in your version than in mine, but he’s far from being in control. 

Edited April 26 by Elder_Haman

[DigificWriter]

@Elder_Haman We have no evidence that Lanfear can manipulate or control an individual person's organic dreams.

 

And it should be stressed that every time we saw her and Rand interact this season, it was inside of his organic dreams.

 

 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/23/2025 at 10:38 AM, DaddyFinn said:

There hasn't been pretty much any interaction between Rand and the Maidens. Maybe next season.

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I would love someone to explain why he is so important to the maidens at some point, 

[Scarloc99]

  On 4/20/2025 at 1:34 AM, DreadLord31 said:

Because they set him up to be Asmodean. Why do multiple scenes on “I’m sending Rand a gift.” “He’ll be a crappy teacher…” ect? Only to kill him a few scenes later? 

 

Sure. But does anybody watching WotTv believe Alanna can die? Girls got more lives than a cat. 🐈 

 

Precisely; and you didn’t even mention that Siuan is also pivotal in Nyn’s development (healing stilling). And Elayne’s ascension (via Gareth Byrne). 

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Alanna’s plot armor is a cheap rubbish writers trick to shock viewers when she actually does die. I agree it removes any sense of jepordy (or between her and moraine it teaches us that Aes Sedai have no internal organs lol) 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 4:40 PM, DigificWriter said:

We have no evidence that Lanfear can manipulate or control an individual person's organic dreams.

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We have evidence that she can pull people into her own dream. And evidence that Ishy could control dreams. Since Lanfear is better than Ishy in the dreams, we indeed have evidence that she is capable of controlling organic dreams. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

I feel everyone is perhaps missing an important point about the carnal goings on in dreams. The slight ambiguouty as to quite what is happening, who is in charge, how much influence does Lanfear have, how much Rand views it as a dream, how much is it really just like being in a physical place, means that we can all interpret what is happening as your headcanon is most comfortable with. One could say this is even excellent writing to give viewers this moral wriggle space. 

 

Though people that use this ambiguouty to imagine the most uncomfortable interpretation to them possible have me scratching my head. Why would you do that? 

Edited April 26 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/26/2025 at 7:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

We have evidence that she can pull people into her own dream. And evidence that Ishy could control dreams. Since Lanfear is better than Ishy in the dreams, we indeed have evidence that she is capable of controlling organic dreams. 

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The only time we ever explicitly saw Ishy enter a person's individual organic dream(s) was when he introduced himself to young Liandrin. There was a heavy suggestion from Season 1 that he could send people dreams, but that's different than entering somebody's dreams and altering them to his own purpose, which is not something that was ever talked about or even hinted at.hgt

 

Also, we know that Lanfear is a master of TAR, but that doesn't automatically or necessarily equate to her being able to enter and control organic dreams.

 

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 8:18 PM, DigificWriter said:

that's different than entering somebody's dreams and altering them to his own purpose, which is not something that was ever talked about or even hinted at.

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What are you talking about? Lanfear literally alters Rand and Egwene's dreams to put them on the little desert wheel thingy. It's not just hinted at, it's an explicit part of the show.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/26/2025 at 9:51 PM, Elder_Haman said:

What are you talking about? Lanfear literally alters Rand and Egwene's dreams to put them on the little desert wheel thingy. It's not just hinted at, it's an explicit part of the show.

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No, she pulled them out of their dreams and into TAR.

Edited April 26 by DigificWriter

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 10:08 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

No, she pulled them out of their dreams and into TAR.

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How does that make a difference to your analysis? 

[Mailman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 8:05 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

I feel everyone is perhaps missing an important point about the carnal goings on in dreams. The slight ambiguouty as to quite what is happening, who is in charge, how much influence does Lanfear have, how much Rand views it as a dream, how much is it really just like being in a physical place, means that we can all interpret what is happening as your headcanon is most comfortable with. One could say this is even excellent writing to give viewers this moral wriggle space. 

 

Though people that use this ambiguouty to imagine the most uncomfortable interpretation to them possible have me scratching my head. Why would you do that? 

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I am not doing that my analysis is that Rand and Lanfear are fully awake fully aware and for all intents and purposes might as well be conducting the conversation in the dream as if they are in the same room as each other. Unless Lanfear is running some hidden manipulation of Rand and the viewer is not aware of he is complete control of his actions.

 

That conclusion then informs as to the actions of the characters in the scene; it is not some deliberate attempt to arrive at an outcome.

[Mailman]

  On 4/26/2025 at 9:51 PM, Elder_Haman said:

What are you talking about? Lanfear literally alters Rand and Egwene's dreams to put them on the little desert wheel thingy. It's not just hinted at, it's an explicit part of the show.

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Lanfear can shape the location and the environment around them but there is no indication that Rand and Egwene were anything but themselves and fully aware and fully conscious and fully in control of their own actions barring the physical limitation placed by Lanfear.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 12:05 AM, Mailman said:

Lanfear can shape the location and the environment around them but there is no indication that Rand and Egwene were anything but themselves and fully aware and fully conscious and fully in control of their own actions barring the physical limitation placed by Lanfear.

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Okay. So let’s take that as the baseline. Exactly what did Rand do that you consider being unfaithful to Egwene?

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/26/2025 at 10:33 PM, Elder_Haman said:

How does that make a difference to your analysis? 

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Because TAR is established to be wholly separate from an individual person's organic dreams. We're shown that Lanfear is a master of TAR, and while we were also shown that she can disguise herself as someone else after entering an individual's organic dreams, there's no evidence that she can actually control and/or manipulate what is happening in said dreams once she's entered them, and, in fact, both Bair and Melaine tell Egwene that while she's in her own dreams, she can take the upper hand against Lanfear, which is a fairly conclusive argument against the idea that Lanfear can control/manipulate an individual's organic dreams.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 3:08 AM, DigificWriter said:

which is a fairly conclusive argument against the idea that Lanfear can control/manipulate an individual's organic dreams.

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It’s the exact opposite. The Wise Ones tell Egwene the only place she has a chance is in her own dream. The implication is that Lanfear is dangerous even inside your own dream. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 3:08 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Okay. So let’s take that as the baseline. Exactly what did Rand do that you consider being unfaithful to Egwene?

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Slept with Lanfear.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 4:54 AM, Mailman said:

Slept with Lanfear.

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At no time in S3 is he depicted as sleeping with her. There is no sex. And as far as I can remember, he does not kiss her (though she kisses him.)

[Mailman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 5:31 AM, Elder_Haman said:

At no time in S3 is he depicted as sleeping with her. There is no sex. And as far as I can remember, he does not kiss her (though she kisses him.)

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I am not watching it again to double check but I got the impression that in about episode 3 she convinces him to go back to having a sexual relationship and then in the episode that Egwene catches them his shirt is undone to the waist and they are more intimate than just kissing. He at no point is reluctant.

 

His reaction when confronted by Egwene is far more indicative of a stronger relationship than ex-lovers.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/27/2025 at 5:31 AM, Elder_Haman said:

At no time in S3 is he depicted as sleeping with her.

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During their breakup fight, Egwene yells at Rand for sleeping (having sex) with a Forsaken (present tense).

[JayceDa]

  On 4/25/2025 at 3:38 PM, Skipp said:

Technically Rand cheats on Elayne in the books with Aviendha.

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No, I'm listening to the audiobooks that address this at the moment, neither Rand nor Elayne thought they were a couple, Elayne wanted to be but was flirting with Thom because she didn't "know" and Rand was confused as hell because of her 2 differently toned letters, one saying she loves him and one calling him a scoundrel and worse. The only person who thinks, and says, that Rand and Elayne are together is Avi herself.

[Turin Turambar]

  On 4/26/2025 at 10:08 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

No, she pulled them out of their dreams and into TAR.

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I had the impression that was what she did with Rand every time. She just made it look like he was still in his own dream. Maybe I had it wrong. Which would be more effective for manipulating him?

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/27/2025 at 9:45 AM, Turin Turambar said:

I had the impression that was what she did with Rand every time. She just made it look like he was still in his own dream. Maybe I had it wrong. Which would be more effective for manipulating him?

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Regards the books, it is pretty much just the same except the dreamer has nearly total control - if they realise it at least and the guest is not very strong willed. Reference Egwene getting caught in Gawain's dreams. But I think control of the dream would still exist there. Though also in the books there is a varying degree of lucidness, iirc. Like Rand's waterwood dreams of the girls swimming he does not seem all there when Lanfear turns up. Other times people are completely lucid. Not sure if this would be a dreamer/non-dreamer divide. 

 

In TaR, those without Dreaming talent and/or no experience in the Dream would be completely at the mercy of those with it,even down to their form such as Rahvin turning Rand into an ass. 

 

Not sure the show has made any attempt to distinguish between dreams and TaR except for the Wise Ones' comments. Might be wrong there. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 9:58 AM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Regards the books, it is pretty much just the same except the dreamer has nearly total control - if they realise it at least and the guest is not very strong willed. Reference Egwene getting caught in Gawain's dreams. But I think control of the dream would still exist there. Though also in the books there is a varying degree of lucidness, iirc. Like Rand's waterwood dreams of the girls swimming he does not seem all there when Lanfear turns up. Other times people are completely lucid. Not sure if this would be a dreamer/non-dreamer divide. 

 

In TaR, those without Dreaming talent and/or no experience in the Dream would be completely at the mercy of those with it,even down to their form such as Rahvin turning Rand into an ass. 

 

Not sure the show has made any attempt to distinguish between dreams and TaR except for the Wise Ones' comments. Might be wrong there. 

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Just on Gawyn and Egwene they were a special case. Because of the extreme feelings on both sides it made the individuals dream nearly impossible to escape from, strength in the dream was no protection, remember the wise ones making fun of one of their number for falling into her husbands dream and being unable to escape.

 

Maybe it is possible this existed with Rand and Lanfear but I doubt it.

 

T'A'R is a level playing field and is subject to the strength and how deeply the person is in the world from in the flesh to as light as using a dream ter'angreal for learning.

Edited April 27 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/27/2025 at 6:55 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

During their breakup fight, Egwene yells at Rand for sleeping (having sex) with a Forsaken (present tense).

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So? Has an angry woman never jumped to conclusions before?