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 A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Nielsen stats

Ralph

By Ralph
in Wheel of Time TV Show

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Elder_Haman Mentor

Elder_Haman

Posted
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Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 2:06 PM, Mirefox said:


Put a fork in it.  Enjoy the series finale in 2 days.

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(a) Nielsen's aren't the be all, end all.

(b) The series is enjoying sustained success globally, a metric not captured by Nielsen.

(c) You're probably right. 

Mirefox Collaborator

Mirefox

Posted
Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 2:18 PM, Elder_Haman said:

(a) Nielsen's aren't the be all, end all.

(b) The series is enjoying sustained success globally, a metric not captured by Nielsen.

(c) You're probably right. 

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I’ve heard repeatedly that their own internal metric is whether or not this performs at the level of season 1.  I don’t particularly care about Nielson or any other stats in particular, other than that it seems very clear that the show is not at that level.  So yeah, I agree that this number isn’t the be all, end all, but I think it is a harbinger off the end.

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Elder_Haman Mentor

Elder_Haman

Posted
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Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 2:32 PM, Mirefox said:

I’ve heard repeatedly that their own internal metric is whether or not this performs at the level of season 1

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While I have heard this as well, I have also heard that it is Sony that is the roadblock to renewal as opposed to Amazon. Which leaves open the possibility that a deal to remove the impediment can still get done.

DojoToad Mentor

DojoToad

Posted
Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 2:48 PM, Elder_Haman said:

While I have heard this as well, I have also heard that it is Sony that is the roadblock to renewal as opposed to Amazon. Which leaves open the possibility that a deal to remove the impediment can still get done.

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I'm not familiar with the relationship between Sony and Amazon.  Are they subsidizing WoT and not seeing the return they expected?  Do they have another show they want to promote in its place?  Something else...?

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Elder_Haman Mentor

Elder_Haman

Posted
  • Moderator
Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 3:05 PM, DojoToad said:

I'm not familiar with the relationship between Sony and Amazon.

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Obviously, I don't know all of the details. But the big picture is that Sony holds the rights to the IP. Amazon licensed those rights from Sony. Sony has apparently decided that it is not going to move forward with the development of a bunch of their external IPs, wanting to focus on Sony IPs instead.

 

My own suspicion is that Red Eagle is trying to use this situation to do a quick cash grab and that if Amazon wants to get the rights from Sony, it can and will get done.

DojoToad Mentor

DojoToad

Posted
Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 3:09 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Obviously, I don't know all of the details. But the big picture is that Sony holds the rights to the IP. Amazon licensed those rights from Sony. Sony has apparently decided that it is not going to move forward with the development of a bunch of their external IPs, wanting to focus on Sony IPs instead.

 

My own suspicion is that Red Eagle is trying to use this situation to do a quick cash grab and that if Amazon wants to get the rights from Sony, it can and will get done.

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Amazon does have money...

Ralph Community Regular

Ralph

Posted
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Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 6:53 AM, Ralph said:

First ones out that include the WoT

 

Not great, but perhaps because only a few days and not including the weekend? 

 

https://www.nielsen.com/data-center/top-ten/

 

Only appears ninth in the Original productions, and not in top 10 overall

 

 

Screenshot_20250415_075049_Chrome.jpg

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https://www.techradar.com/streaming/amazon-prime-video/were-confident-the-wheel-of-time-cast-havent-given-up-hope-that-the-prime-video-show-will-be-renewed-for-a-fourth-season

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SinisterDeath Spam Master

SinisterDeath

Posted
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Posted

Here's Adam Werthead's breakdown from back in 2020.

 

What likely happened is that REE "optioned" their "IP Rights" to the TV Series to Sony/Amazon for a set number of years/seasons, and it's possible that contract has expired and it's time to renegotiate their "IP Fee" with Sony/Amazon... It's also possible that whatever contract Sony had with Amazon or vice versa has expired, so they're trying to renegotiate... or EVERYBODY is trying to renegotiate.

Now, this is my own personal opinion and is NOT the opinion of Dragonmount, but I think if this hold up rests squarely on the shoulders of REE/iWoT, it's because they are ultimately Greedy (pissing in the soup again), and that they're just trying to renegotiate/siphon some absurdly stupid amount of money out of Amazon/Sony to fund their dumb AI projects... but again, this is just my opinion/speculation based on their past decisions and shady practices.

Mailman Community Regular

Mailman

Posted
Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 2:06 PM, Mirefox said:


Put a fork in it.  Enjoy the series finale in 2 days.

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I think they will work out a deal to at least do a short season 4 that will have a rushed conclusion at the very least.

 

Having an entirely unfinished series makes it very difficult to get any traction or returns on reruns and no matter what the series will be content on a streaming platform for years to come.

Mirefox Collaborator

Mirefox

Posted
Posted
  On 4/15/2025 at 11:23 PM, Mailman said:

I think they will work out a deal to at least do a short season 4 that will have a rushed conclusion at the very least.

 

Having an entirely unfinished series makes it very difficult to get any traction or returns on reruns and no matter what the series will be content on a streaming platform for years to come.

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Your second paragraph is true, but Netflix does it constantly.  I honestly don’t know Amazon’s track record with actually concluding series

DigificWriter Collaborator

DigificWriter

Posted
Posted

Neither Amazon or Sony Pictures Television own the rights to WoT. SPT signed an apparently non-exclusive licensing agreement with the company that does own the rights, iWoT/Red Eagle, and then came to Amazon as a production partner and distributor, signing agreements that are now up for renegotiation, a process that, at last report, was at an impasse.

 

It should be stressed that we don't know the exact purpose or subject of the negotiations between SPT and Amazon, but it can be inferred from reporting that viewership numbers are not at issue.

 

 

Mailman Community Regular

Mailman

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 7:34 AM, DigificWriter said:

Neither Amazon or Sony Pictures Television own the rights to WoT. SPT signed an apparently non-exclusive licensing agreement with the company that does own the rights, iWoT/Red Eagle, and then came to Amazon as a production partner and distributor, signing agreements that are now up for renegotiation, a process that, at last report, was at an impasse.

 

It should be stressed that we don't know the exact purpose or subject of the negotiations between SPT and Amazon, but it can be inferred from reporting that viewership numbers are not at issue.

 

 

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It feels very strange to me that Amazon would have allowed production to begin without ensuring that they had the ability to control the series through to completion. I am not saying you are wrong but for Amazon to have allowed itself to fall into this position feels incredibly stupid.

Mirefox Collaborator

Mirefox

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 9:05 AM, Mailman said:

It feels very strange to me that Amazon would have allowed production to begin without ensuring that they had the ability to control the series through to completion. I am not saying you are wrong but for Amazon to have allowed itself to fall into this position feels incredibly stupid.

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While I agree completely, isn’t it pretty common in the business to have initial agreements for 3-4 years?  I feel like I’ve hear somewhere that actors almost always get to re-negotiate around that time, which is why it used to be a big deal for shows to make it to a 4th season, meaning they got through that hurdle.    Talking out of complete ignorance and heresay, here, though.

Mailman Community Regular

Mailman

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 11:23 AM, Mirefox said:


While I agree completely, isn’t it pretty common in the business to have initial agreements for 3-4 years?  I feel like I’ve hear somewhere that actors almost always get to re-negotiate around that time, which is why it used to be a big deal for shows to make it to a 4th season, meaning they got through that hurdle.    Talking out of complete ignorance and heresay, here, though.

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Actors getting new contracts depending on show success I can understand, especially considering a lot of the actors started out as no names.

 

I would have assumed that the studio would have included ratchet clauses that increased the return to the licensing partner depending on the shows viewing numbers but to lose control of actually being able to continue to the licensing partner feels reckless. Especially considering the length of the acquired material.

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SinisterDeath Spam Master

SinisterDeath

Posted
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Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 9:05 AM, Mailman said:

It feels very strange to me that Amazon would have allowed production to begin without ensuring that they had the ability to control the series through to completion. I am not saying you are wrong but for Amazon to have allowed itself to fall into this position feels incredibly stupid.

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REE/iWoT are two guys, Rick Selvage and Larry Mondragon. They probably took one look at the guys, and felt that they, being Amazon and backed by Bezos were the biggest dogs in the room and could get what they wanted, and would have all the leverage. They completely underestimated the sleaze of those two.

Mailman Community Regular

Mailman

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 2:07 PM, SinisterDeath said:

REE/iWoT are two guys, Rick Selvage and Larry Mondragon. They probably took one look at the guys, and felt that they, being Amazon and backed by Bezos were the biggest dogs in the room and could get what they wanted, and would have all the leverage. They completely underestimated the sleaze of those two.

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I had not heard of those guys or groups before so know very little about them but from what I know about amazon and bezos I don't have any sympathy for that side of the desk either.

Mirefox Collaborator

Mirefox

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 2:12 PM, Mailman said:

I had not heard of those guys or groups before so know very little about them but from what I know about amazon and bezos I don't have any sympathy for that side of the desk either.

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Yeah, and I cannot begrudge a couple individuals playing hardball so the Amazon.  If I could leverage Amazon for a billion dollars I would…

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SinisterDeath Spam Master

SinisterDeath

Posted
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Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 2:12 PM, Mailman said:

I had not heard of those guys or groups before so know very little about them but from what I know about amazon and bezos I don't have any sympathy for that side of the desk either.

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I think we agree on something there, lol.

 

But I think you have to imagine, a guy who changed his name to "Larry Mondragon", sitting across from you, with contracts and at some point, you're probably not going to take him very seriously.

 

RJ probably didn't either, much to his chagrin. 

Mirefox Collaborator

Mirefox

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 2:16 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I think we agree on something there, lol.

 

But I think you have to imagine, a guy who changed his name to "Larry Mondragon", sitting across from you, with contracts and at some point, you're probably not going to take him very seriously.

 

RJ probably didn't either, much to his chagrin. 

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Without knowing anything about him, I imagine he looks a bit like a heavyset version of those douchy Terry Gookind poses in the back of some of his books…

Mailman Community Regular

Mailman

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 2:16 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I think we agree on something there, lol.

 

But I think you have to imagine, a guy who changed his name to "Larry Mondragon", sitting across from you, with contracts and at some point, you're probably not going to take him very seriously.

 

RJ probably didn't either, much to his chagrin. 

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LOL he changed his name. 

DigificWriter Collaborator

DigificWriter

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 9:05 AM, Mailman said:

It feels very strange to me that Amazon would have allowed production to begin without ensuring that they had the ability to control the series through to completion.

Expand  

 

The television industry doesn't work the way you think it does.

 

Contracts between production companies, license holders, and distributor networks are not permanent, which is why you will see shows be cancelled by one network and then picked up by a different network (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Brooklyn 99, 9-1-1, to name a few examples).

 

 

 

 

Mailman Community Regular

Mailman

Posted
Posted
  On 4/16/2025 at 4:27 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

The television industry doesn't work the way you think it does.

 

Contracts between production companies, license holders, and distributor networks are not permanent, which is why you will see shows be cancelled by one network and then picked up by a different network (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Brooklyn 99, 9-1-1, to name a few examples).

 

 

 

 

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Oh I don't have any inside knowledge.

 

I thought Buffy was not wanted anymore by the original studio. If the controlling studio wants out I can understand another studio jumping in and taking over it just feels wrong that decision is not in the control of the original studio.

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