The biggest problem is the tone, just doesn’t feel like The Wheel of Time

[Jake Sykwalker]

On 4/4/2025 at 10:25 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

17-to 19-year-olds aren't 'kids' in any jurisdiction anywhere on this planet.

 

 

I'm not sure where you get that.  If a 19 year old gets involved with a 17 year old it won't be pretty for the 19 year old in legal terms.  Not saying I agree or disagree, but 18 years old is a line drawn in many places and societies.  That 100% does exist in many jurisdictions.  

[Mailman]

2 hours ago, Jake Sykwalker said:

I'm not sure where you get that.  If a 19 year old gets involved with a 17 year old it won't be pretty for the 19 year old in legal terms.  Not saying I agree or disagree, but 18 years old is a line drawn in many places and societies.  That 100% does exist in many jurisdictions.  

Thats certainly not true under most of Australia's consent laws. There is going to be variation across different countries though.

[zacz1987]

On 6/12/2025 at 5:57 AM, Jake Sykwalker said:

I'm not sure where you get that.  If a 19 year old gets involved with a 17 year old it won't be pretty for the 19 year old in legal terms. 

This really depends on where you live. In many places this is very common and noone bats an eye at a two year age difference. 

[Raal Gurniss]

On 4/4/2025 at 5:44 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

That's not how age works. 

No....It works on the basis of society and the general life expectancy...

 

300 years ago a child would be considered adult at about 8 or 9....Or some such age...

 

The concept of "childhood" as even being a thing is more a Victorian era creation!

 

Human history is one of violence and grubbiness with short periods of grace heroism and justice...Age is just a creation of a civilisation developed far enough to gauge how they want things to be using a method to count the time that people manage to survive....

 

In that fictional world who is to say they measured the passing of time the same as we do, the knowledge would have diverged so how they would count a year month week day hour minute or second  could be far different, given the ruthlessness and technologically lacking civilisation they have combined with eras of lost history and a population that has both a greatly reduced life expectancy and ones with an extended life expectancy...Who knows the actual ages of those involved the story...17-19 could be todays equivalent of 13-15 or 21-23...

 

I don't seem to recall(been awhiles since I partook in reading) references to days of the week or months...Just spring summer fall and winter.

 

Just something for people to consider.

 

People shouldn't really apply the same morality, laws or even physics of today to a fictional fantasy work set thousands of years in the future after successive global near planet ending events have wiped out virtually all concurrent civilisations.

 

 

 

 

[Bodewhin]

3 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

In that fictional world who is to say they measured the passing of time the same as we do, the knowledge would have diverged so how they would count a year month week day hour minute or second  could be far different, given the ruthlessness and technologically lacking civilisation they have combined with eras of lost history and a population that has both a greatly reduced life expectancy and ones with an extended life expectancy...Who knows the actual ages of those involved the story...17-19 could be todays equivalent of 13-15 or 21-23...

 

I don't seem to recall(been awhiles since I partook in reading) references to days of the week or months...Just spring summer fall and winter.

 

WOT does have it's own calendar - 13 months make up a year (they all have names - offhand the two that stuck with me were Nesan and Danu). The 13 month calendar was likely inspired by Celtic and Druidic traditions. Time is mentioned frequently throughout the books, such as days, weeks, years. 

 

Edit to add more on topic:

For me the tone shift wasn't about saying characters were 20 instead of 18, 19 - it was how the world was presented in a very grime, color drained, cheerless fashion. The Two Rivers was a place in the books that captured a certain vibe - life there, the people in it - Emond's Field was very different in the series.

 

This may seem unimportant, but by the end of the books, a lot about who Rand was in 'that turning' is tied to how he was raised - he was a better person than Lews, and the Two Rivers had a lot to do with that. Which was entirely absent in the series' retelling. 

 

Honestly, the Two Rivers example is just one - the Tinkers have already been mentioned, and there are countless others. The tone is different compared to the books and it did impact how I viewed the series. 

 

 

Edited June 13 by Bodewhin

[Samt]

4 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

No....It works on the basis of society and the general life expectancy…

 

300 years ago a child would be considered adult at about 8 or 9....Or some such age...

 

 

Do you have a source or any data for this?  Because I’m pretty sure that 8 year olds have never been adults in any recorded human civilization and certainly not 300 years ago.  It’s perhaps true that young children were expected to have more responsibility for chores, caring for younger siblings, and even perhaps handling paid work.  That’s very different from seeing them as adults.  
 

Adulthood may have perhaps been more of a sliding scale, but in many cases full adulthood may have been actually later.  If your point is that the concept of a hard line where adulthood begins for everyone at a fixed age regardless of other factors is a relatively new concept, I would agree.  But I don’t think it’s accurate to say that adulthood used to start much earlier.  Sexual maturity may have been an important dividing line, particularly for women, but it wasn’t the only one.  

[Raal Gurniss]

3 hours ago, Samt said:

Do you have a source or any data for this?  Because I’m pretty sure that 8 year olds have never been adults in any recorded human civilization and certainly not 300 years ago.  It’s perhaps true that young children were expected to have more responsibility for chores, caring for younger siblings, and even perhaps handling paid work.  That’s very different from seeing them as adults.  
 

Adulthood may have perhaps been more of a sliding scale, but in many cases full adulthood may have been actually later.  If your point is that the concept of a hard line where adulthood begins for everyone at a fixed age regardless of other factors is a relatively new concept, I would agree.  But I don’t think it’s accurate to say that adulthood used to start much earlier.  Sexual maturity may have been an important dividing line, particularly for women, but it wasn’t the only one.  

You have the entirety of recorded human history to look these things up and literal search engines have made it easier than ever to do.

 

Take medieval England for example 13-14 was considered of age for a Woman whilst 21 was for a Man...That was considered "coming of age"..

 

 

12 was considered the average age for criminal responsibility as an adult  although children younger were treated the same as long as they could tell right from wrong...

 

This is just England that early on adopted a written form of law...

 

Just consider all the places that might not have such stringent regulation.

 

Islam text  states its when they show signs of puberty or 15, which ever is first.

 

Judaism texts is 12 for women 13 for men.

Early South Americans had been recorded as young as 10 

 

But generally speaking, children became adult as soon as they had shown that they can fend for themselves...So obviously for much of unrecorded human history it would likely be even earlier than 10...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

5 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

WOT does have it's own calendar - 13 months make up a year (they all have names - offhand the two that stuck with me were Nesan and Danu). The 13 month calendar was likely inspired by Celtic and Druidic traditions. Time is mentioned frequently throughout the books, such as days, weeks, years. 

 

Edit to add more on topic:

For me the tone shift wasn't about saying characters were 20 instead of 18, 19 - it was how the world was presented in a very grime, color drained, cheerless fashion. The Two Rivers was a place in the books that captured a certain vibe - life there, the people in it - Emond's Field was very different in the series.

 

This may seem unimportant, but by the end of the books, a lot about who Rand was in 'that turning' is tied to how he was raised - he was a better person than Lews, and the Two Rivers had a lot to do with that. Which was entirely absent in the series' retelling. 

 

Honestly, the Two Rivers example is just one - the Tinkers have already been mentioned, and there are countless others. The tone is different compared to the books and it did impact how I viewed the series. 

 

 

Yes...My point was that time would be recorded differently...One full day and one full night might not actually be recorded as or even be 24 hours...

 

So a week might not be the equivalent of  a week we know, or a month(even if 13) and a year might not be a year.

 

They could be shorter or longer than we anticipate so what passes as a 17 year old there might be a year or two older or younger.

 

But yes, the tone was definitely off for many people, for me Two Rivers was more a region of small villages Tudor in nature whereas the show made it more an American mining camp of the 19th century sans guns/tech, it put me in mind of a grubbier little house on the prairie atmosphere in all honesty.

 

 

[Bodewhin]

3 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

Yes...My point was that time would be recorded differently...One full day and one full night might not actually be recorded as or even be 24 hours...

 

So a week might not be the equivalent of  a week we know, or a month(even if 13) and a year might not be a year.

 

They could be shorter or longer than we anticipate so what passes as a 17 year old there might be a year or two older or younger.

 

The time RJ gave the WOT can be found in the book glossary. 

1 day = 24 hours 

1 week = 10 days

1 month = 28 days

1 year = 13 months

 

 

Btw the description of 'grubbier little house on the prairie atmosphere' totally gave me a chuckle 🤭 

 

Edited June 13 by Bodewhin

[Samt]

10 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

You have the entirety of recorded human history to look these things up and literal search engines have made it easier than ever to do.

 

Take medieval England for example 13-14 was considered of age for a Woman whilst 21 was for a Man...That was considered "coming of age"..

 

 

12 was considered the average age for criminal responsibility as an adult  although children younger were treated the same as long as they could tell right from wrong...

 

This is just England that early on adopted a written form of law...

 

Just consider all the places that might not have such stringent regulation.

 

Islam text  states its when they show signs of puberty or 15, which ever is first.

 

Judaism texts is 12 for women 13 for men.

Early South Americans had been recorded as young as 10 

 

But generally speaking, children became adult as soon as they had shown that they can fend for themselves...So obviously for much of unrecorded human history it would likely be even earlier than 10...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8 year olds generally can’t fend for themselves and by and large never have been expected to.  12-14 is very different than 8 and even in cases where some adult responsibilities and rights were given to teenagers, that doesn’t mean that those civilizations didn’t understand and expect that people to continue to mature and grow.  Respect for elders was a common value in many ancient and middle age civilizations.  

[Raal Gurniss]

4 hours ago, Samt said:

8 year olds generally can’t fend for themselves and by and large never have been expected to.  12-14 is very different than 8 and even in cases where some adult responsibilities and rights were given to teenagers, that doesn’t mean that those civilizations didn’t understand and expect that people to continue to mature and grow.  Respect for elders was a common value in many ancient and middle age civilizations.  

I agree...."Generally" though....Respect for elders came from how rare the elderly were, respect gained from surviving for so long...

 

Point is that it all fluctuates depending on situation and how advanced a society has become.

 

It isn't a constant and fluctuates dependent on a great deal of factors, need for example...Look at modern nations losing a war that refuse to surrender, the soldiers  get ever younger and younger until its literally children in uniform....Add in  generally reduced life expectancy due to limited technology and people are expected to grow up quicker than an era where people can afford to let children be children.

 

What sort of comparative century did you think WoT was set? Not talking about 3-5-10k in the future I am talking about what comparative level of technology to our previous history you think its similar to?

 

Roman seems a bit early, same with the early dark ages, 1200-1500 seems nearer the mark for me, 1600s seem a bit late as do the 1700-1800s..

 

 

 

 

[Raal Gurniss]

14 hours ago, Bodewhin said:

The time RJ gave the WOT can be found in the book glossary. 

1 day = 24 hours 

1 week = 10 days

1 month = 28 days

1 year = 13 months

 

 

Btw the description of 'grubbier little house on the prairie atmosphere' totally gave me a chuckle 🤭 

 

I think using those measurements would require the removal of weeks, 2.8 weeks to one month seems convoluted to establish a calendar, it would not be an easy thing to keep track of.

 

But it does show I suppose that the protagonists are a year and some older than comparative today a 12yr old there would be 13 here etc, so I suppose that would imply they were in the story just over 19 which would make them just shy of 21 now.

 

Hard to determine when the Males would be considered of age but the Women seem to be considered such at around 23 given the shows rite of passage for Nynaeve is around 25 by today standard.

 

25 seems rather excessive to be considered adult in such a period unless healing by power was the norm and the average life expectancy was in the 120yrs region..

 

It just feels off,

 

 

 

[Bodewhin]

It's a fantasy world, so I don't see the point of trying to apply real world logic. A lot of this age stuff is kind of irrelevant imo - because again it's fantasy. 

 

In Eye of The World Egwene is 17 and being old enough to braid her hair is her rite of passage to womanhood. That is a Two Rivers custom - doesn't mean that age applies anywhere else in the setting.

 

Let's be honest, the reason Rand, Mat, Perrin and Egwene were all rounded off to 20 in the show was for the "Who is the Dragon" mystery box. A decision which mildly annoyed me but that it didn't overly bother me until I realized all the problems it created in the adaption on the whole. 

 

The tone itself is what I was far more concerned with - if Emond's Field isn't the same as the books (which it wasn't) and the characters weren't the same (which they weren't) the tone of the story and setting is irrevocably impacted (which is ultimately what I feel happened).

 

So many tone choices really changed how the setting was presented - Egwene getting pushed off a cliff in some rite that imo made no sense whatsoever. Mat's dysfunctional family reducing him to a victim and thief, Perrin's slaying of his made-up wife and his supposed crush on Egwene, Nynaeve's backstory and the whole "Wisdom's can't marry" - those were the things that felt off. It didn't match the book and was needless. 

[Samt]

5 hours ago, Raal Gurniss said:

I agree...."Generally" though....Respect for elders came from how rare the elderly were, respect gained from surviving for so long...

 

Point is that it all fluctuates depending on situation and how advanced a society has become.

 

It isn't a constant and fluctuates dependent on a great deal of factors, need for example...Look at modern nations losing a war that refuse to surrender, the soldiers  get ever younger and younger until its literally children in uniform....Add in  generally reduced life expectancy due to limited technology and people are expected to grow up quicker than an era where people can afford to let children be children.

 

What sort of comparative century did you think WoT was set? Not talking about 3-5-10k in the future I am talking about what comparative level of technology to our previous history you think its similar to?

 

Roman seems a bit early, same with the early dark ages, 1200-1500 seems nearer the mark for me, 1600s seem a bit late as do the 1700-1800s..

 

 

 

 

I’d agree with your assessment that WoT is mostly set in a period analogous to the late Middle Ages or early renaissance.  This is consistent with the military, nautical, and agricultural technologies that we see and also reflects the general level of trade and connectivity in the world.  It seems that the Taveren are implied to have accelerated things with Rand’s school causing the steam engine and other Industrial Revolution technologies and Mat revolutionizing warfare with dragons and pike formations.

[nsmallw]

The contract between Sony and Amazon was for three seasons, so they had to do at least that many, breaking a contract is more messy than having to re-negotiate one.  Plus, "Jordan Studios" was ended post season three, so having to not only do new contracts for actors, production team etc, they had to get new a new site for the in-studio parts.  Too bad they didn't get a contract for five seasons, as ROP was able to,  I think Rafe and co. could have come closer to semi satisfying ending with two more seasons. 

[Mailman]

6 minutes ago, nsmallw said:

The contract between Sony and Amazon was for three seasons, so they had to do at least that many, breaking a contract is more messy than having to re-negotiate one.  Plus, "Jordan Studios" was ended post season three, so having to not only do new contracts for actors, production team etc, they had to get new a new site for the in-studio parts.  Too bad they didn't get a contract for five seasons, as ROP was able to,  I think Rafe and co. could have come closer to semi satisfying ending with two more seasons. 

Thinking rafe could adequately finish the series in 16 more episodes is hopelessly optimistic. Even if he actually had the skills to tell a good story in the first place reducing the rest of the series to 16 episodes would be basically impossible for the very best screenwriters in history.

 

It truly is time that writers rooms got cut back massively far too many cooks are spoiling far too much.

[Cipher]

I don’t believe we will get a S4.

 

I think viewership fell off—starting higher in S1 than S3 ended up with. I have no data to support that, just my guesstimation.

 

The show should have tried to tell Jordan’s story as true to the source as possible; attempting to win the giant book fan base.  They would have won some non-book fans in the effort.  Instead they alienated a large part of that fan base and had a much smaller audience as a result IMO.

 

It seems just like Star Wars and Marvel change in tone and focus to appeal to “modern audiences.”

 

edit: wrote this before I saw that it was cancelled.

Edited June 17 by Cipher

[Blueberry]

I hear where you’re coming from, it’s true that book fans were alienated by the changes, and that might have impacted viewership. But I think it’s important to recognize that adaptations aren’t the same thing as retellings. They’re not just translations. They’re reimaginings that have to function within a completely different medium with its own limitations and strengths. And sometimes becomes a victim of its time. I think GoT and similar higj stskes shows really made the writers feel like they had to match the energy to get viewers. 

 

Jordan’s story was sprawling, and paced over thousands of pages. A direct, beat-for-beat version wouldn’t just be impossible logistically. It might honestly not work on screen, not in this era of streaming at least. It’s not Jordan’s exact telling, but this is version that tries to keep the core aspects of the world alive.

 

I get the frustration some book fans feel, some changes were too much for me as well. I felt like season 3 was as close to the way I imagined it when I read it as a teen, though. I really hope we get a Season 4. it feels like the show was just coming into its own. And the show managed get a lot of new people to pick up the books, too. 

Edited June 17 by Blueberry
Forgot a sentence

[Cipher]

11 hours ago, Blueberry said:

I hear where you’re coming from, it’s true that book fans were alienated by the changes, and that might have impacted viewership. But I think it’s important to recognize that adaptations aren’t the same thing as retellings. They’re not just translations. They’re reimaginings that have to function within a completely different medium with its own limitations and strengths. And sometimes becomes a victim of its time. I think GoT and similar higj stskes shows really made the writers feel like they had to match the energy to get viewers. 

 

Jordan’s story was sprawling, and paced over thousands of pages. A direct, beat-for-beat version wouldn’t just be impossible logistically. It might honestly not work on screen, not in this era of streaming at least. It’s not Jordan’s exact telling, but this is version that tries to keep the core aspects of the world alive.

 

I get the frustration some book fans feel, some changes were too much for me as well. I felt like season 3 was as close to the way I imagined it when I read it as a teen, though. I really hope we get a Season 4. it feels like the show was just coming into its own. And the show managed get a lot of new people to pick up the books, too. 

S3 was better as it followed the source closer than the first 2 seasons and proves the line “changes must be made to make adaptations” as a catch all to justify the changes as untrue.  
 

IMO some of the changes subvert characters still in S3 like Aviendha besting or at least matching Lan in combat.  A wet behind the ears maiden of the spear besting a 20 year veteran, hero of legend.  Bah.

 

edit: I just jumped into this thread and posted before seeing that the show was cancelled.

Edited June 17 by Cipher