Who is Mesaana?

[Juggler]

Where does it mention partial masking of ability? or is it something RJ has said? they could partially shield but I haven't seen any record of partial masking it would be useful only to the forsaken for this one task no other reason. Doesn't seem to add up I can't see why aes sedai in age of legends would need to partially mask ability.

 

RJ comment at a post-The Path of Daggers singing in Washington. And again he did say that this wasn't even widely known in the Age of Legends--probably because how pointless is was. Moreover we first witness this trick used in tDR when Lanfear disguises herself as Else Grinwell.

 

 

Fair enough I can admit being wrong, it just struck me as inconsistent, there would be no point to the weave except for someone strong to masquerade as someone weak where someone strong would be an obvious enemy, thus only a forsaken would come up with the modification / weave, so why would they share with each other when they could use it to destroy each other? ahh this has me annoyed mostly because its seems the only real weak piece of writting. if Mesanna is a sister masquerading like that it just seems a bit of a weak way to hide someone in the tower. I hope it isn't danelle because she seems to obvious.

[aevogt]

The War of Power went on for 10 years.  It seems to me that the weave to mask strength would have been at the top of the list for infiltrators and spies.

 

During wartime, keeping secrets is just as important as finding out the other sides.  Just ask Winston Churchill.

 

 

[Luckers]

And there would be situations in which disguising strength would be factor even outside the war. Manipulation and subterfuge are natural to human nature, and enmity is hardly something the Forsaken invented. And need i say it again, but RJ himself stated that it was not widely known even in the Age of Legends which makes sense concidering that it is only really beneficial in use for subterfuge.

 

And I don't see how you continue to sustain its inconsistance when we see it used in the third book.

[Juggler]

to quote the white ajah, that's not logical. if you want subterfuge you completely mask your power, why say I have power but not alot? when all can be done behind a full masking with inverted weaves? why would those against the shadow try to minimise their ability without full masking they wouldn't only someone trying to pass as an Aes sedai, but was much too strong would want to mask only some of their ability. the light couldn't infiltrate the shadow like that. it is a weave specific only for infiltrating the tower as a person who could channel.

 

Give 1 clearly believeable example of "subterfuge" that would require the weave outside of tar valon. I don't see it. It has only 1 application, so mesaana can hide in the white tower. Lanfear as Else was maybe the only effort to corroborate the use of this weave.

 

the inconsistancy is this, if the weave was so pointless and of little use (as Luckers says RJ said) why was it shared about? the forsaken guard their secrets jealously and will take any advantage over another. 2 using the same weave for the same purpose in the the same (and my opinion) ONLY place the weave would have been any good and that place full of darkfriends anyway already hidden from each other an everyone else.

 

It just frustrates me that the weave seems specific for a purpose - hiding amoungst Aes sedai if you are way more powerful. a magic with no application other to fulfill a desire for mesaana to hide in the white tower. in the age of legends the weave would have had no real use so how was it found? why try to do something when there was no use?

[aevogt]

But if you're trying to infiltrate a group of channelers, you cannot completely mask your strength.  That would point to you in a group more easily than your true strength.  Especially when the group consists of such a powerful cross section.

 

For example, if you show up at the dog show with a toy breed, you're still sort of a dog person.  (though not much of one, says the owner of a Great Dane).  You still fit in with the group.  If you show up without a dog at all... you're no dog person and the lack is what points you out. 

[Jehaine]

I'm going to have to go with Verin here. She's a Brown sister, and has been confirmed to be able to use Compulsion, which is generally considered a Forsaken-only ability. Even the one Black Ajah Sister with the Milking Tears talent didn't think anything could best it until Compulsion was used on her, further enhancing the image that Compulsion was a lost weave.

 

What? Firstly no Aes Sedai has manifested Milking Tears, nor even known what it was. Secondly many Aes Sedai have some knowledge of compulsion. Verin cites it as being the most common self-taught weave amongst Wilders, and it is a common issue that the Aes Sedai have to deal with in new novices. It's lack amongst Aes Sedai is a result of direct effort--and not entirely accurate, all Aes Sedai with Warders use a type of compulsion.

 

As for the actual suggestion that Verin is Mesaana--thats proven beyond a doubt to be false. We have a POV and the knowledge and action displayed is clearly of a Third Ager.

 

Actually, i recall Milking Tears be used on Lady Amalisa by Liandrin. I looked it up in my copy on tGH:

 

"In that moment of doubt and confusion, Liandrin struck. She did not move, but lashed out with the One Power. Amalisa gasped and gave a jerk, as if she had been pricked with a needle, and Liandrin's petulant mouth perked in a smile.

 

This was her own special trick from childhood, the first learned of her abilities. It had been forbidden to her as soon as the Mistress of Novices discovered it, but to Liandrin that only meant one more thing to conceal from those who were jealous of her.

She strode forward and pulled Amalisa's chin up. The metal that had stiffened her was still there, but it was baser metal now, malleable to the right pressures."

 

Later on, when she tried this weave on Moghedien she was countered with Compulsion, which she herself realised was the true form of the ability she had. Though technically a weaker form of Compulsion, i make a distinction between Milking Tears (Liandrin's weave) which involves manipulating emotions and true Compulsion (Forsaken), which can force people to do pretty much anything. I believe Graendel used that on a Warder she took prisoner (pain first, then pleasure, can't recall the name), further enhancing the thought that the two are separate weaves rather than an imperfect and a perfected one.

 

But other than that, i concede the point on Verin not being Mesaana, as i indeed seem to have missed that bit of info ^^;

[aevogt]

Where does it say that Milking Tears is the weave Liandrin pieced together.  I'm not disputing it, but I've never seen an explanation for what this weave actually is. 

 

As far as I know, it's brough up once, in LoC, but never explained further.

[Jehaine]

Actually, Milking Tears is the name of a Talent in DM.

 

Milking Tears - A lower level version of Compulsion, this deals with emotions, making them stronger or weaker.

 

Figured i'd use Milking Tears as a name since i was trying to avoid confusion comparing two weaves with essentially the same name.

[aevogt]

No worries.  I just though I'd missed something in the books.

 

 

DM???

 

[Luckers]

Actually, Milking Tears is the name of a Talent in DM.

 

 

Quote

Milking Tears - A lower level version of Compulsion, this deals with emotions, making them stronger or weaker.

 

Figured i'd use Milking Tears as a name since i was trying to avoid confusion comparing two weaves with essentially the same name.

 

Where did you get that? In the books its stated that no one today has any memory of what Milking Tears is, and Moghedian decries even knowing of a weave named that. It, and Spinning Earthfire are specifically stated as such, and only mentioned the once in LoC chapter 39, and never anywhere else.

 

to quote the white ajah, that's not logical. if you want subterfuge you completely mask your power, why say I have power but not alot? when all can be done behind a full masking with inverted weaves? why would those against the shadow try to minimise their ability without full masking they wouldn't only someone trying to pass as an Aes sedai, but was much too strong would want to mask only some of their ability. the light couldn't infiltrate the shadow like that. it is a weave specific only for infiltrating the tower as a person who could channel.

 

To get people to underestimate you. As is stated, it was not commonly known, and likely because it was not commonly nessasary--certainly not as much as a full masking. But there are absolutely situations when it would be beneficial to disguise strength, especially for the Shadow in getting people amongst the Aes Sedai, yet keeping them insignificant. Spying, assasination, sabotage, all these things require a degree of obscurity, and yet would benefit from true strength. Also that argument is not a construction of logic--its your guesswork linked to the word logic. Logic, my friend, is a math like any other.

 

the inconsistancy is this, if the weave was so pointless and of little use (as Luckers says RJ said) why was it shared about? the forsaken guard their secrets jealously and will take any advantage over another. 2 using the same weave for the same purpose in the the same (and my opinion) ONLY place the weave would have been any good and that place full of darkfriends anyway already hidden from each other an everyone else.

 

This was not a Forsaken discovered weave.  RJ states that it was not commonly known, not that it was unknown.

 

 

[Jehaine]

DM = DragonMount

 

As for where i got the Talent name (and quote) from... The WT site at aliciawilkerson.com. I figured Milking Tears wasn't in the books so it was okay to use: apparently, i was wrong :S

 

My bad again.

[havoc110]

Whoever she is, she's:

 

1) More than likely not Danelle.  I say this only

because she's been totally out of sight for the last

4 books.

 

2) Probably the person torturing Sheriam (PoD, Ch. 16).

Her references towards Egwene are very similar to KoD Ch3,

and in both instances are inquiring after the same information,

Egwene's plans.

 

This makes it possible to be an AS not residing in either the

WT or Salidar, 'cause she's got both Keepers in her pocket.

 

Currently investigating who is moving in and out of Salidar

around the time of Sheriam's torture scene.  (Yes, I know Mesanna

can travel, but just in case).

 

Most probable currently is Tarna, but I don't even think

that fits too well, and most everyone else is still in the

"loony" category.

 

 

 

 

[balefireruinssteaks]

it's unlikely that Mesaana is Tarna.

 

Given that Tarna is suggesting that she bond a Warder who can channel, it stands to reason that Mesaana would not put herself out there like that.  Danelle fits a little better based on what we've seen of Mesaana's movements in the books.

 

She'll probably be someone completely different, like Laras - the Mistress of the Kitchens.

[havoc110]

Sorry, that was the result of the WotMania PoV index not

being current.

 

Tarna's PoV (KoD 25) mostly disqualifies her.  I say mostly because

I am supposing that Mesaana is somebody, and by now most

others are disqualified as well.

 

As I said, I didn't think it was a good fit anyway, but it made OK

sense for her to want to send the Reds to Taim, as part of the

endgame strategy to the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" plan, which

was begun by Dem, Mesaana, Semi, and Graendal in the Prologue of LoC.

That coupled with her arriving in Salidar early in LoC, when all the

other Forsaken in on the Lord of Chaos plan have had scenes (except Graendal,

but she has just jumped aboard the Dem/Mes/Semi axis anyway),

plus the "Forsaken Chapter Icon" argument (LoC 13), plus her presence in

the scene at the end of KoD does make for some suspiscion.

[Luckers]

1) More than likely not Danelle.  I say this only

because she's been totally out of sight for the last

4 books.

 

Actually that makes it more likely. Mesaana states that she prefers to wield power from the Shadow. Danelle played a key role in the breaking of the Tower, and after that slid smoothly back into comfortable obscurity. And yet, despite that she's been mentioned in every book since then--in casual though, or by someone walking by her... but come whatever, RJ's keeping her active.

 

As for Tarna, her POV completely disqualifies her. She thinks about her time as a novice. Mesaana was never a novice.

 

She'll probably be someone completely different, like Laras - the Mistress of the Kitchens.

 

It can't be Laras. Elaborate changes like that don't stand up to touch, and we've seen Laras get touched. Her Mask of Mirrors would not have held.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Graendal isn't part of the Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage axis anyway.  She got reeled into the Moridin camp by Moggy, Cyndane, and SH, remember?

[havoc110]

Graendal isn't part of the Demandred, Mesaana, Semirhage axis anyway.  She got reeled into the Moridin camp by Moggy, Cyndane, and SH, remember?

 

Yes, but I'm referring to the 1st half of LoC.  Graendal's previous axis has gone down into flames by the end of FoH, and lo and behold, she's now with the "Lord of Chaos" team.

 

That's the thing about Graendal, she plays the field.  Dem says not to let Sammy in, cause he acted like a big chicken in FoH.  Of course, Graendal is still in cahoots with Sammy, too.

 

She doesn't get on board the Moridin/SH team for another 2 books.

 

So that's why I'm fine toothing early LoC for Mesaana.  I'm thinking that RJ has written her a scene.  Similar to how the FoH team got worked in, except the FoH trap/story arc was only one novel long (not 6 or 7 like the LoC plan may turn out to be). 

 

My logic:

We start w/ Dem at the Bore.

Dem pitches the plan to his team.

Then the players start rolling in:

Taim, in the 1st chapter (now that we're pretty sure he's in on this

scheme after KoD).

Graendal (w/Sammy) and Semi, chaper 6.

Dem skulking about in T'A'R at the close of chapter 7.

So is Mesaana in a scene at this time as well?  As good a place as

any to look, right?  Of course there are no guarantees, but RJ said that the clues

are there, so here's an opportunity for one to be here...

 

Also note that Graendal has knowledge of the LoC plan.  Most likely she has not shared it with her later teammates.  (Just like her, isn't it)

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's one of many questions that never seems to get asked.  How did Moridin know exactly when and where Sam was going to ambush Rand once Rand finally attacked Illian?  Most likely answer to that is that Graendal tattled to somebody.  Demandred was the new King Rat during the interval between when Baalzy died and Moridin became active, so my money is that she either told him, or the DO directly during her famously referred to trip to the Pit of Doom where she was all but promised being made Nae'blis.  Selling out Sam was probably what got her the attagirl.

 

How did Moggy learn that Rand was attacking Rahvin?  And, when he was attacking Rahvin?  That's two more.

 

Here's another:  How was "Sammael" able to order Myrddraal and Trollocs into the Ways for the attack on Rand at the Manor in KoD long after "Mashadar got him.  He's toast"?  One of the others might be able to mimic his outward appearance, but none of them can mimic the "Chosen Mark" that is what allows them to command Shadowspawn.  None of them can see that mark.  Not their own and not the ones the others wear.  Thus, none of them even knows what it looks like.  Nor, how to fake one that the Myrddraal would "see", recognize, and obey.

 

 

[havoc110]

I'd also like to know how the message got out to the Black Ajah to "preserve" Rand before Dem shares the LoC plan to the LoC team.  (Assuming that the Lord of Chaos refers to Rand, but that doesn't even necessarily need to be the case)

 

I guess the real question here is:  Who's in charge of the Black at any given time?  Allegedly it is Ishy thru the end of TDR.  By the beginning of CoS it is Mesaana.  Alviarin's POV all but says that this is not their first meeting.  But who is it (leading the Black) at the beginning of LoC?  Is it Demandred?

[Bob T Dwarf]

At some point ( probably during unrevealed backstory ) operational control of the BA got handed over to Mesaana once she established herself.  Always subject to review by higher authority, of course.

 

Effectively that meant that anything she wanted to do either had to be hidden, or approved by IshyBaalz until he got croaked.  Then, until Moridin became active, Demandred ( who was privy to and a co-conspirator with Mesaana's plans ) would have helped her keep up appearances.

 

Come to think of it, Mesaana would make a rather good Hyacinth Bucket.

[balefireruinssteaks]

How did Moggy learn that Rand was attacking Rahvin?  And, when he was attacking Rahvin?

 

When Birgitte takes Nyneave to the meeting with Lanfear, Rhavin, Sammael and Graendal, we see that just below them also spying on the meeting is Moghedien. 

 

Moghedien spied on all their meetings I imagine and that's how she knew that Rhavin would attack Rand.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Rahvin didn't attack Rand.  Rand attacked Rahvin.  None of Rand's staff/planning meetings took place in T'a'R.

[Luckers]

Yes, but I'm referring to the 1st half of LoC.  Graendal's previous axis has gone down into flames by the end of FoH, and lo and behold, she's now with the "Lord of Chaos" team.

 

Well, your being misleading. That was simply a meeting arranged so Demandred could convey the Dark One's orders. She was hardly in cahoots with them.

 

That's one of many questions that never seems to get asked.  How did Moridin know exactly when and where Sam was going to ambush Rand once Rand finally attacked Illian?  Most likely answer to that is that Graendal tattled to somebody.  Demandred was the new King Rat during the interval between when Baalzy died and Moridin became active, so my money is that she either told him, or the DO directly during her famously referred to trip to the Pit of Doom where she was all but promised being made Nae'blis.  Selling out Sam was probably what got her the attagirl.

 

Well, the simplest answer is that Moridin had eyes and ears in the Saldaen camp--he implies as much in his thoughts in the prologue of PoD--and simply was watching attentively, and followed along. The True Power gives no sense of channeling and if he had the ability to read residues he could easily follow Sammael and Rand.

 

But what of Osen'gar. He was there in Illian, and if he could read residue as able as Rand to tell where they'd went. From there, mere moment after Rand travelled away he could have travelled to Shayol Ghoul and sent Moridin to Shayol Ghoul.

 

How did Moggy learn that Rand was attacking Rahvin?  And, when he was attacking Rahvin?  That's two more.

 

Lanfear speaks to Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael of being certain another Chosen is watching Rand, and suggests Moghedian as the culprit. She likely had evidence, and that'd be my guess for how the Spide knew this was going down. She probably had an agent amongst the Aiel who gathered to attack Caemlyn--remember she was the leader of the Shadows spy network in the Age of Legends.

 

Here's another:  How was "Sammael" able to order Myrddraal and Trollocs into the Ways for the attack on Rand at the Manor in KoD long after "Mashadar got him.  He's toast"?  One of the others might be able to mimic his outward appearance, but none of them can mimic the "Chosen Mark" that is what allows them to command Shadowspawn.  None of them can see that mark.  Not their own and not the ones the others wear.  Thus, none of them even knows what it looks like.  Nor, how to fake one that the Myrddraal would "see", recognize, and obey.

 

The mark is indistinguishable--as in it feels the same no matter which Chosen its in.  In effect, whilst we know that it wasn't in fact Sammael, it was someone with the Chosen Mark. We know that since the Chosen themself blur it--when Moridin speaks of sammael, its also suggested that it was one of the others diguising themselve as Sammael, ergo there is no difference in the sensation of one Chosen Mark to another. So it was one of the other chosen, or... suggestively, Taim.

[Bob T Dwarf]

That requires a number of complicated things to be true.

 

First, the Myrddraal need to be able to both "see" the outward appearance of the Chosen, and then to be able to "see" beneath that outward appearance and also "see" the Chosen Mark on the forehead of the real person underneath.

 

Then to top it off, they have to report the incident using only the outward appearance of the relevant Chosen as the identifier.

 

Too complicated and messy.

[havoc110]

Yes, but I'm referring to the 1st half of LoC.  Graendal's previous axis has gone down into flames by the end of FoH, and lo and behold, she's now with the "Lord of Chaos" team.

 

Well, your being misleading. That was simply a meeting arranged so Demandred could convey the Dark One's orders. She was hardly in cahoots with them.

 

 

I am not being misleading at all.  I am stating things as I see them.  It was specifically mentioned that Sammy was invited.  The others are not mentioned as invited but are told that they are to learn nothing of this.  Passing on orders?  Yeah.  To his allies and his allies alone.  It seems to me that Dem was picking up the pieces of the failed FoH team, and Sammy chose to stay home and sulk.  Besides himself, there's more than 3 or 4 Forsaken remaining.  To me there is very little doubt that this meeting was between 5, and 4 of 5 showed up, and those 4 (3 since Dem already knows) get the knowledge of the "let the Lord of Chaos rule" plan.  It seems that Graendal does tell Sammael part of it (the Rand/Nae'blis angle), but there was no mention of the "Lord of Chaos".  Graendal's own plan is contrary to Dem's plan, she plans to kill Rand (or have him killed) and throw Sammy under the bus.

 

There are several hints that this plan involves making Rand Nae'blis.  But if it doesn't, then surely it would make Dem Nae'blis.  (Obviously, each Chosen has some type of strategy where they each end up Nae'blis.)  So it follow that, later on, that Moridin, nor his team has any knowledge whatsoever of this plan.  The Dark One would not share his intentions to remove Moridin as Nae'blis TO MORIDIN.