Who is Mesaana?

[Luckers]

Actually its plausible as long as she assumed the identity of a loner Aes Sedai like Danelle. Or Tsutama, i must admit, though i dont actually like her for a suspect. She just doesn't feel particularily forsakeny.

 

Semi was torturing Cabriana in the real world. The only time we've ever seen a vacoule used is when Moghedian was tortured by Shadar haren.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not sure about that.

 

Remember Rand's visits with Baalzy in EoTW? He's in a room. He tries to get away. Goes out one door and in another and is back in the same room. That's not normal space/time. Then there's the battles. The first at Tarwin's Gap and then the one at Falme.

 

At Tarwin's Gap, Rand has to take a long stairway in the air to get there. Where did the stairway come from? Where did it lead to? How was it that the battle was visible to those below?

 

All we know about Semi torturing Cabriana is that she was in one room and her warder was in another across the hall. Recall that Anath is on a ship in the middle of the Aryth Ocean on her way to Randland when this happens. There's some tricks going on with space/time in order for Semi to be two places at once.

 

Then there's the 'gars, and Moridin too when they first appear. Wherever the 'gars are, they can't leave. Shaidar Haran can come and go, but they're stuck in wherever that room is. Also, not a normal place.

[Luckers]

That sounds more like Tel'aran'rhiod then a vacoule, and keep in mind that RJ did a lot of wierd stuff like that... for instance where were rand and Ishy when they fought in the sky over Falme?

 

And no, Semi was not on a ship when she was torturing her Cabriana, she thinks on how difficult it had been to get away.

 

The same with the gars. All this is explained by the fact that Shayol Ghoul is not a normal place. How does a roof with spikes just above one persons head be half a foot above shadar haren? There is no reason and no evidence to conclude that any of these instances were vacoule. More thent hat their inherent instability makes them dangerous, i can say why an avatar of the dark one would be content to ignore that, but Semi, Baalzy?

[Slayer]

Does the Dark One have the ability to stabilize vacuoles?

[Luckers]

We have no way of knowing. It would seem to be against his nature though, everything we've seen about him so far has had the effect of destabalizing reality. And why would he use that much effort when the Forsaken could do any of those things just as easily in normal reality or tel aran rhiod.

[crash]

Shayol Ghul is where the pattern is the thinnest. Remember in TGH where lighting from the bottom to top. And where the mindtrap can only be created.

[Jellybelly]

There's some tricks going on with space/time in order for Semi to be two places at once.

 

She doesn't need to be two places at once. In fact, all we know suggests that is impossible. All she had to do was lock the door and enter T'A'R in the flesh. Or travel to the near vicinity of Shayol Ghul, where you can do these freaky things.

[Bob T Dwarf]

We have no evidence that time works any differently at Shayol Ghul.

 

My point was that Anath is supposedly at Tuon's side, and by the time of Cabriana's torture, aboard a ship on the way to Ebou Dar.

 

Certainly Semirhage has the ability to Travel to anywhere on the globe in an instant, but she can't do anything about the time she actually spends in some other place. While she is torturing Cabriana and her Warder, she is not on that ship, or available to Tuon. That presents a thorny problem or two.

[rd2000]

Plus, there's the problem of travelling from, then later back to....a moving object.

[Jedimuppet]

Plus' date=' there's the problem of travelling from, then later back to....a moving object.[/quote']

 

I bet it's possible to leave a beacon or something like that.

J

[Inara]

world of dreams.

people can be forcibly pulled into the dream and are thus under your control.

it is evil, but then so is semi sooooo...

this way there is no travelling, only sleeping, which she can do at tuon's side.

[Luckers]

No, the events with Cabriana had the feel of the physical world, not TAR. I concede that the ship is a problem... nevertheless the vacoule idea doesn't explain this either. Personally, i think RJ didn't think about it too carefully.

 

And where the mindtrap can only be created.

 

Just curious, but where is the evidence of this?

[Inara]

i dont know for sure but i think that it is mentioned in the chapter where moghedian is trapped.

something about her bringing other people here for this exact purpose.

its got something to do with the DO.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The DO is the only one of our actors who can perform the necessary magic to trap a person's mind. The Pit of Doom is the only place in the physical world that the DO has been able to "touch" sufficiently to perform that magic.

 

If the DO had the same access to Joe's Bar and Grill, minds could be trapped there, as well.

 

And, now that I think of it, the last time I went to Joe's, things got pretty freaky...

[Juggler]

Long time since anyone posted here but why start a new thread.

 

OK I know this may seem odd but I've had some thoughts on this.

 

Mesanna is in the tower.

she has her ability masked she must do otherwise surely anyone near her would kow how strong she is so how could she masquerade as a sister?

If she is I believe Danelle is a good bet however I think it's someone else

 

Mesanna was directed to sow discord in the tower.

 

I think the person who could do this best would be Laras the cook, mistress of the kitchen.

ability masked, some power unlikely to be punished helped suian escape and set up the rebellion, has been giving Egwene funny looks once captured and returned to novice white. Never mentions her actual clothes other than her white apron she could be wearing anything under that. And we know the forsaken aren't affraid to hide as someone overweight or in a posistion of subservience.

[Luckers]

It can't be Laras, we've seen her touched, and elaborate disguises like that don't hold up to direct touch, and Sammael notes when he sees Graendal's disguise as the Lady Basene.

[Juggler]

Fair point, But I can't see how she could be a sister, her ability is too strong to leave unmasked and masked she couldn't be one because other sisters would notice the lack surely?

She gets information almost as soon as things happen in Elidas study (pointing at danelle as she passes alviarin) but it seems to inconsistent. if she can't be laras because she's been touched she can't be a sister because of the agelessness and the fact that her ability must be masked.

So that leaves a member of staff. a secretary, petitioner or servant.

[Luckers]

It's possible to hide strength in the power, though it was not widely known even in the Age of Legends.

 

She gets information almost as soon as things happen in Elidas study (pointing at danelle as she passes alviarin) but it seems to inconsistent. if she can't be laras because she's been touched she can't be a sister because of the agelessness and the fact that her ability must be masked.

 

Thats the thing, minute changes do survive the 'touching' issue. It is the large changes that won't hold up to being touched--issues of weight, or height, or overt changes in colour--notice how Alviarin catches a glimpse of Mesaana's true bronze skirts when she grabs the woman.

 

This is part of the reason why people suggest Danelle. The woman is very similar to Mesaana in colouring and height. The changes nessasary to appear like her would be minute--adding the Agelessness and slight adjustments to the contours of the face to gain Danelle's appearence. Especially when added to the fact that Alviarin thought Mesaana looked vaguely familiar when the woman's disguise was broken by Shaidar Haren.

[Juggler]

True the agelessness can be duplicated.

Where does it mention partial masking of ability? or is it something RJ has said? they could partially shield but I haven't seen any record of partial masking it would be useful only to the forsaken for this one task no other reason. Doesn't seem to add up I can't see why aes sedai in age of legends would need to partially mask ability.

[Fjong]

This is just what i think:

Look at your strength in the power as a river, to hide this totally you build a dam which blocks it totally. To hide it partially, you just make an opening in your dam, which lets that amount of strength you want to show get through.

But this is just the way i think it is

[Nightstrike]

I think she's hiding as Tsutama Rath, new Highest of the Red Ajah! Tsutama has been out of the tower on exile the past 15-20 years, so her identity may be somewhat easier to assume than many others. At least that's what I think. This would also explain why Mesaana isn't all that worried when Alviarin gets sacked from the position as Keeper. Tsutama is in the middle of power and influence, but not in everybodys eyes. Fits Mesaana's personality and habits pretty well!

[Jehaine]

I'm going to have to go with Verin here. She's a Brown sister, and has been confirmed to be able to use Compulsion, which is generally considered a Forsaken-only ability. Even the one Black Ajah Sister with the Milking Tears talent didn't think anything could best it until Compulsion was used on her, further enhancing the image that Compulsion was a lost weave.

 

While it is true that Verin is short while Mesaana isn't, this could be a deliberate thing as Lanfear disguised herself as a fat woman in the Waste. On the other side of things, Verin has been involved with Moiraine and Siuan since they were Novices, and taught Nynaeve and Egwene their first lessons on the OP. Mesaana was a teacher (preferably of young people) that was interested in the OP in particular, and like Moiraine and Siuan, Nynaeve and Egwene were considered to be the strongest of their time. Furthermore, she learned early that Rand was the DR, increasing the ties between Moiraine (being the only AS near Rand) and herself. That's just a little too much of a coincidence for me.

 

The apparent age fits as well, as Mesaana was reported to be middle-aged when the Bore was Sealed, and Verin having a spot of gray hair as well. She'd have considerable influence this way as well -- as Verin with the Rebels, and as Mesaana in the WT, letting her have a large say in guiding the course of both.

 

But hey, those are just my two cents again, and it could be i've just been overlooking something myself ^^;

[trakand_01]

Verin doesnt compel anyone - she does not use compulsion, but rather encourages the person to make the decision she wants them to make, of their own free will. She has never forced anyone against their will - it is more... coercion, than compulsion.

 

Secondly, we have in-depth POVs from Verin, which as far as I'm concerned, prove Verin is Verin.

 

Too much is known about Verin, her history and her time in the tower, for Mesaana to have taken over her. If something had happened to Verin, and Mesaana had taken over her body as a vessel, then someone close to Verin would have noticed the change in her because no-one - not even Forsaken, can perfectly imitate a person. Danelle has few friends.

[Juggler]

This is just what i think:

Look at your strength in the power as a river, to hide this totally you build a dam which blocks it totally. To hide it partially, you just make an opening in your dam, which lets that amount of strength you want to show get through.

But this is just the way i think it is

 

I'm not saying it can;t be done, but there has been no mention of this type of weave, it would be unique for this purpose, if mesanna turns out to be a sister I'll be very disappointed, as it will involve a unique weave which hasn't been mentioned. It is similar to the shield on asmodean but not the same so I don't think that counts because the weave of that shield was inverted to hide his ability. I hope RJ had something a little cleverer than that planned. I don't think it's verin because she would have to keep jumping back to the tower therefore I don't think it is anyone outside the tower.

[Luckers]

Where does it mention partial masking of ability? or is it something RJ has said? they could partially shield but I haven't seen any record of partial masking it would be useful only to the forsaken for this one task no other reason. Doesn't seem to add up I can't see why aes sedai in age of legends would need to partially mask ability.

 

RJ comment at a post-The Path of Daggers singing in Washington. And again he did say that this wasn't even widely known in the Age of Legends--probably because how pointless is was. Moreover we first witness this trick used in tDR when Lanfear disguises herself as Else Grinwell.

 

I think she's hiding as Tsutama Rath, new Highest of the Red Ajah! Tsutama has been out of the tower on exile the past 15-20 years, so her identity may be somewhat easier to assume than many others. At least that's what I think. This would also explain why Mesaana isn't all that worried when Alviarin gets sacked from the position as Keeper. Tsutama is in the middle of power and influence, but not in everybodys eyes. Fits Mesaana's personality and habits pretty well!

 

Tsutama's instability is what stops me from thinking this is a possibility. Her idiosyncracies are too specific and too strange to be a cover, and Mesaana matches none of them.

 

I'm going to have to go with Verin here. She's a Brown sister, and has been confirmed to be able to use Compulsion, which is generally considered a Forsaken-only ability. Even the one Black Ajah Sister with the Milking Tears talent didn't think anything could best it until Compulsion was used on her, further enhancing the image that Compulsion was a lost weave.

 

What? Firstly no Aes Sedai has manifested Milking Tears, nor even known what it was. Secondly many Aes Sedai have some knowledge of compulsion. Verin cites it as being the most common self-taught weave amongst Wilders, and it is a common issue that the Aes Sedai have to deal with in new novices. It's lack amongst Aes Sedai is a result of direct effort--and not entirely accurate, all Aes Sedai with Warders use a type of compulsion.

 

As for the actual suggestion that Verin is Mesaana--thats proven beyond a doubt to be false. We have a POV and the knowledge and action displayed is clearly of a Third Ager.

 

Verin doesnt compel anyone - she does not use compulsion, but rather encourages the person to make the decision she wants them to make, of their own free will. She has never forced anyone against their will - it is more... coercion, than compulsion.

 

Verin does use compulsion, it is merely a weaker version. The weave is still compulsion--aside from RJ referring to it as such, she still forces people to do things against their will, merely requiring that they be off balance before she begins. Inclination to begin with does not matter.