Healing Stilling/Gentling

[Graendals favourite]

Well, I don't think the DO has a reset button. He can probably torture the souls in his possession to his hearts desire, but to get them, he has to snap them up before they make their way to the soul pool. Not-extremely-weak balefire is evidence of this; if the soul slips by him, he cannot get it, and the next time the soul emerges from the pool, the Wheel itself puts it in a new body with a new mind and a fresh personality.

 

There's evidence of the Dark One being able to take souls from the living (or dying)-- Grey Men, Draghkar, Darkhounds, but nowhere in the books has he altered what the soul's current facade is like. Though he did fill Fain with the essence of Rand, Mat and Perrin. However, he hasn't edited the minds of souls, and if he could, it should have been advantageous for him to do that.

[Jedimuppet]

Well' date=' I don't think the DO has a reset button. He can probably torture the souls in his possession to his hearts desire, but to get them, he has to snap them up before they make their way to the soul pool. Not-extremely-weak balefire is evidence of this; if the soul slips by him, he cannot get it, and the next time the soul emerges from the pool, the Wheel itself puts it in a new body with a new mind and a fresh personality.

 

There's evidence of the Dark One being able to take souls from the living (or dying)-- Grey Men, Draghkar, Darkhounds, but nowhere in the books has he altered what the soul's current facade is like. Though he did fill Fain with the essence of Rand, Mat and Perrin. However, he hasn't edited the minds of souls, and if he could, it should have been advantageous for him to do that.[/quote']

 

Well let's do it your way then...the DO can heal DEATH, but not stilling? please..

J

[HighLordXanthus]

I have to agree with you there. Assuming that lanfear did die, she would have again been able to channel. That may be why i have a problem with the notion of the DO lessening her ability to channel. From what we know of when halima was reborn, she channel's saidin!!

 

Why, because the Soul will bend the body around what that soul could do before. the soul will bend the body to it's will so to speak.

 

Jedimuppet, you are there for saying that the DO can alter a person's soul. If he could do that, why wasn't ishy or the other transmigrated souls given GREATER ability?

[Graendals favourite]

Xanthus, yea I say the resetting normally happens at death, when the thread that is the soul is snapped, only the Dark One can prevent that, instead putting the thread back into the Pattern. Otherwise Lanfear would have had the mind of a baby. If the Dark One doesn't take action, he will have no control over when the Wheel chooses to use the soul again, and what new mind and personality and body will be like.

 

The soul is eternal, it will be reborn if the Wheel wills it even though balefired, the Dark One can only affect the current edition.

[Jedimuppet]

I have to agree with you there. Assuming that lanfear did die' date=' she would have again been able to channel. That may be why i have a problem with the notion of the DO lessening her ability to channel. From what we know of when halima was reborn, she channel's saidin!!

 

Why, because the Soul will bend the body around what that soul could do before. the soul will bend the body to it's will so to speak.

 

Jedimuppet, you are there for saying that the DO can alter a person's soul. If he could do that, why wasn't ishy or the other transmigrated souls given GREATER ability?[/quote']

 

Because he can destroy easier than he can create. It's easier to limit than to expand, etc.

J

[Graendals favourite]

Well let's do it your way then...the DO can heal DEATH' date=' but not stilling? please..

J[/quote']

 

Well, I theorise he can insert the (should i say) current edition of the soul (mind, personality, memories) into a new body, but not manually edit its characteristics.

[Jedimuppet]

Well let's do it your way then...the DO can heal DEATH' date=' but not stilling? please..

J[/quote']

 

Well, I theorise he can insert the (should i say) current edition of the soul (mind, personality, memories) into a new body, but not manually edit its characteristics.

 

You're suggesting that because stilling has something to do with the soul, he can't touch that, even though nynaeve and asha'man have, but he can deal with death because that doesn't affect the soul?

J

[Graendals favourite]

Well, yea, the Dark One can do what he can do, but he has limits too. The thread of a person is not the whole soul. It contains body, mind etc... I'm saying the Dark One can prevent the thread from disappering from the future Pattern, but that he is not capable of changing what the thread is like. Perhaps he could if he were completely free, to just change even living people to channel less or grow a long nose, if he wished, but now he has limitations.

 

So I'm saying the DO can grasp the whole current incarnation and put it back in a living body, but not edit what it consists of.

[Jedimuppet]

Well' date=' yea, the Dark One can do what he can do, but he has limits too. The thread of a person is not the whole soul. It contains body, mind etc... I'm saying the Dark One can prevent the thread from disappering from the future Pattern, but that he is not capable of changing what the thread is like. Perhaps he could if he were completely free, to just change even living people to channel less or grow a long nose, if he wished, but now he has limitations.

 

So I'm saying the DO can grasp the whole current incarnation and put it back in a living body, but not edit what it consists of.[/quote']

 

Yeah, but even Aes Sedai can slap a shield on someone. think about it.

J

[Graendals favourite]

But then Aes Sedai and Asha'man are part of the Pattern, unlike the Dark One. What Aes Sedai are doing is in essence the Wheel's doing. Compulsion is also done, hypnosis. Actually, just killing someone by a sword affects his body, the others affecting the mind.

 

The Dark One hasn't been doing any of these things. He has given the ability to Myrddraal to twist people's souls with channellers, but even then it is they that do it, not the DO.

[HighLordXanthus]

We may have to agree to disagree on this. If we do find out later that she did in fact die, I will not be surprised. but for what info we do have now, it takes alot less effort for lanfear's changes to be the price of the finn's. It seems smoother that she would go before them, ask for her three wish's give her price, and leave there world. One wish would be of course to have the ability to leave when finished, another perhaps that they hold moiraine.

 

She was possibly burn out when she fell through the doorway. another wish could have been to be healed of that. That in itself could account for her lessened ability. Since no women have been healed to full ability in the real world, she could have been healed by the finn's in the half healed way Suian and Leane were healed.

 

All I am saying is that for all the reason's you give, there are reason's I can give for my views. we cannot know what happened behind the twisted door untill Moiraine is saved, or cyndane gives us a more indepth view of her time there.

 

Plus if we know that Moiraine is alive, why then would we assume that lanfear was ever killed.

[Andrew B.]

I've also thought about the whole restilling thing to get Siuan and Leane back to full strength by having Damer do it. I've come to the conclusion that they would end up no more powerful then they were before the healing, as they were already healed. They'd end up in the same place.

[Graendals favourite]

I take that was to J, but I think one difference with Moiraine and Lanfear could be that Lanfear was a Darkfriend. If the finns can delve the souls somehow, detect that, and if they truly are very against the Dark, then that could be enough for them to punish her by killing her.

 

Then again might be we'd find a stilled Moiraine in aMoL. Hope not, though she can be Healed.

 

But I have no idea what happened... They did break the concord by flashing bright lights with the doorway melting, but I don't know how that would affect things necessarily.

[HighLordXanthus]

Well' date=' yea, the Dark One can do what he can do, but he has limits too. The thread of a person is not the whole soul. It contains body, mind etc... I'm saying the Dark One can prevent the thread from disappering from the future Pattern, but that he is not capable of changing what the thread is like. Perhaps he could if he were completely free, to just change even living people to channel less or grow a long nose, if he wished, but now he has limitations.

 

So I'm saying the DO can grasp the whole current incarnation and put it back in a living body, but not edit what it consists of.[/quote']

 

If that were true, how was Balthamel transmigrated into Asan'gar aka Halima? would you not say that the sex of a channeler is inherent to the soul? if not then when the soul was moved then it would have channeled saidar not saidin. I think it is safe to say that the DO does have some control over the soul and thus it's ability to channel.

[rd2000]

The story has shown us that everyone has limits to what they can do. That includes even the Creator and the Dark One.

 

As far as Cyndane/Lanfear, the story has only shown us that when someone shows up in a new body, they have died and the DO has provided them a new body. I know Birgitte is a different set of circumstances but I doubt anyone believes that Lanfear was torn out of Tel' to become Cyndane (Birgitte kept her Tel' body, more or less anyway)

My belief is that the gift of beauty and power that Lanfear enjoyed was provided by the Finn's, not the DO. As such, raising Cyndane's power to match Lanfear's was not the DO's gift to give. When she died, and he put her soul into Cyndane's body, all he had was what she was born with that is what ended up as Cyndane. To put it slightly different, her THREAD in the pattern was enhanced by the Finn's. When she died, Lanfear's thread was gone. Her soul was moved into a new thread (Cyndane's) Since that thread no didn't have the enhancements provided by the Finn's, Cyndane's power level became whatever Lanfear's was before Lanfear's thread was enhanced by the Finn's.

[HighLordXanthus]

I take that was to J' date=' but I think one difference with Moiraine and Lanfear could be that Lanfear was a Darkfriend. If the finns can delve the souls somehow, detect that, and if they truly are very against the Dark, then that could be enough for them to punish her by killing her.

 

Then again might be we'd find a stilled Moiraine in aMoL. Hope not, though she can be Healed.

 

But I have no idea what happened... They did break the concord by flashing bright lights with the doorway melting, but I don't know how that would affect things necessarily.[/quote']

 

There is no knowledge i know of that the finn's are against the shadow. the only mention i do recall was to the twisted door in Tear, the snakes, that answers questions that any question that touches the shadow can be dangerous or something. This is the door from Rhuideon, the foxes where no known study was done on it. How could we know anything about there allegences. It could very well be that the snakes are for the light and the foxes for the shadow.

[Graendals favourite]

If that were true, how was Balthamel transmigrated into Asan'gar aka Halima? would you not say that the sex of a channeler is inherent to the soul? if not then when the soul was moved then it would have channeled saidar not saidin. I think it is safe to say that the DO does have some control over the soul and thus it's ability to channel.

 

I take it that the sex in the Power is part of the soul, at least part of the current reincarnation. So the new body will just be a platform, that apparently works for both, in channelling, but his manhood makes for the Power he uses.

 

And it would indeed be not very practical to settle to put Balthamel learning saidar, though apparently it is not too difficult instinctively, taking how people can link.

[Graendals favourite]

There is no knowledge i know of that the finn's are against the shadow. the only mention i do recall was to the twisted door in Tear, the snakes, that answers questions that any question that touches the shadow can be dangerous or something. This is the door from Rhuideon, the foxes where no known study was done on it. How could we know anything about there allegences. It could very well be that the snakes are for the light and the foxes for the shadow.

 

Though Lanfear did mention she was held by both snakes and foxes in WH: the battle scene.

[Graendals favourite]

I've also thought about the whole restilling thing to get Siuan and Leane back to full strength by having Damer do it. I've come to the conclusion that they would end up no more powerful then they were before the healing, as they were already healed. They'd end up in the same place.

 

Yea, Andrew, that might do it. Though perhaps they should be stilled again to undo what was done, before the Healing?

[HighLordXanthus]

The story has shown us that everyone has limits to what they can do. That includes even the Creator and the Dark One.

 

As far as Cyndane/Lanfear' date=' the story has only shown us that when someone shows up in a new body, they have died and the DO has provided them a new body. I know Birgitte is a different set of circumstances but I doubt anyone believes that Lanfear was torn out of Tel' to become Cyndane (Birgitte kept her Tel' body, more or less anyway)

My belief is that the gift of beauty and power that Lanfear enjoyed was provided by the Finn's, not the DO. As such, raising Cyndane's power to match Lanfear's was not the DO's gift to give. When she died, and he put her soul into Cyndane's body, all he had was what she was born with that is what ended up as Cyndane. To put it slightly different, her THREAD in the pattern was enhanced by the Finn's. When she died, Lanfear's thread was gone. Her soul was moved into a new thread (Cyndane's) Since that thread no didn't have the enhancements provided by the Finn's, Cyndane's power level became whatever Lanfear's was before Lanfear's thread was enhanced by the Finn's.[/quote']

 

Now that is impossible. That would have said that she had been through the twisted door before to get what she had as lanfear then went through with moiraine. The door's are only usable ONCE, how could she have already been through? It is possible that she used the Tower of Ghenji, but unlikely. Of course this is also going against what i just posted about the doors, and the one they fell through never having been studies, so I am only saying logically that both doors are one time trips :)

[HighLordXanthus]

There is no knowledge i know of that the finn's are against the shadow. the only mention i do recall was to the twisted door in Tear' date=' the snakes, that answers questions that any question that touches the shadow can be dangerous or something. This is the door from Rhuideon, the foxes where no known study was done on it. How could we know anything about there allegences. It could very well be that the snakes are for the light and the foxes for the shadow.[/quote']

 

Though Lanfear did mention she was held by both snakes and foxes in WH: the battle scene.

 

I am the first to agree that she did say that. She was held, but that does not say she was there for killed does it? I think that might have been mentioned if it were so

[Graendals favourite]

No, but at least she didn't die before the snakes could put their hands on her too.

 

Edit: sorry for the occasional puns, but language is too fun not to make full use of.

[Jedimuppet]

The story has shown us that everyone has limits to what they can do. That includes even the Creator and the Dark One.

 

As far as Cyndane/Lanfear' date=' the story has only shown us that when someone shows up in a new body, they have died and the DO has provided them a new body. I know Birgitte is a different set of circumstances but I doubt anyone believes that Lanfear was torn out of Tel' to become Cyndane (Birgitte kept her Tel' body, more or less anyway)

My belief is that the gift of beauty and power that Lanfear enjoyed was provided by the Finn's, not the DO. As such, raising Cyndane's power to match Lanfear's was not the DO's gift to give. When she died, and he put her soul into Cyndane's body, all he had was what she was born with that is what ended up as Cyndane. To put it slightly different, her THREAD in the pattern was enhanced by the Finn's. When she died, Lanfear's thread was gone. Her soul was moved into a new thread (Cyndane's) Since that thread no didn't have the enhancements provided by the Finn's, Cyndane's power level became whatever Lanfear's was before Lanfear's thread was enhanced by the Finn's.[/quote']

 

I'm not sure where you get the beauty/power thing being a gift from the Finns, but if that was the case, I could accept that as the reason she was weaker. It would make sense, in that case.

J

[Jedimuppet]

There is no knowledge i know of that the finn's are against the shadow. the only mention i do recall was to the twisted door in Tear' date=' the snakes, that answers questions that any question that touches the shadow can be dangerous or something. This is the door from Rhuideon, the foxes where no known study was done on it. How could we know anything about there allegences. It could very well be that the snakes are for the light and the foxes for the shadow.[/quote']

 

Though Lanfear did mention she was held by both snakes and foxes in WH: the battle scene.

 

I am the first to agree that she did say that. She was held, but that does not say she was there for killed does it? I think that might have been mentioned if it were so

 

So where did the new body come from? I mean, it's right there...you're suggesting that it's easier to believe some concocted story about her new body, rather than believe that she's in the same category as all the other reborn Forsaken? Occham's razor, man..

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Lanfear considered her self the most beautiful and power full women of her age. What greater price could the finn's impose on her then the lessening of both