Eye of the World- A thought

[Blackbyrd]

Haven't seen it- so how about this:

 

Eye of the world- Matrim Cauthon's eye

 

Please discuss

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 4/25/2024 at 6:57 PM, Blackbyrd said:

Haven't seen it- so how about this:

 

Eye of the world- Matrim Cauthon's eye

 

Please discuss

Can you elaborate a bit?

[Blackbyrd]

It was just funny that it had never occurred to me before, and a cursory search showed nothing. It's obvious RJ meant something by  this parallel. What two things are discovered under the EotW? The Horn- which Mat blows and the banner, and who leads the Dragon's army at Tarmon Gaidon? Mat. Though it was Perrin who raised the banner in TGH. What leads Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye? Mat- 'An old thing, an ancient thing'

 

Honestly- I'm still puzzled by the connection and I can generally figure out some of the more esoteric things RJ intended- I was way ahead of the curve on knowing Zen Rand can't be shielded or  likely even turned through channeling. This one though... I think it might be buried in that 'mystery of Mat' pool which we'll never actually figure out without the Epilogue trilogy.

 

After a few days of thinking the relevant reference I figure is that Sanderson himself discovered something in the notes about this that he couldn't really get at- or that he didn't want to take on, or that he himself wondered about, but found nothing. What happens to the Dragon banner? In aMoL Mat -Mat again here- drops it while riding to Shayol Ghul with Olver. This kind of makes me think that perhaps this entire Mat's Eye/EotW was a thing at some point in RJ's ideas that he dropped- like I think he dropped a few ideas after the 1st trilogy.

 

However, it's still kind of intriguing and could have some some intriguing speculation. Since the wheel is eternal- do the Finn's somehow ALWAYS have possession of Mat's eye and was that somehow used to help create the EotW? I mean- it's a pretty esoteric point. Yet there's no way it began as entirely coincidental point.

 

So if anyone else has any ideas or thoughts the ways they could perhaps -even tenuously- have connection please throw it out there

 

Sidenote: Another interesting discussion I haven't really is seen is the symbology of Mat losing an eye vs Rand losing his hand

[Sabio]

in Rj's notes there were going to be more than one eye of the world and each one would have a seal there.  The original job of the Aiel "sight blinders" was to find these eye of the worlds.

[Samt]

I don't think there is intended to be a connection.  The old ancient thing that leads Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye is Mashadar, not Mat himself.  Other than that, what is the actual connection between the Eye of the World and Mat's eye?  Just that they are both eyes and that there are some artifacts important to Mat that happen to be at the Eye of the World.  

 

I don't think there is any indication that the Finns had any role in creating the Eye of the World.    The Dragon Banner gets dropped both figuratively and literally.  But I don't really see much indication that it had much tie to the Eye of the World or Mat in particular.  

 

As was said, the Eye(s) of the World were supposed to play a bigger part in the original story, but I don't think that has a particular connection to Mat or his eye.  

 

Mat is definitely connected to Odin from Norse mythology at least by symbolism.  One eyed man in a top hat with a spear associated with Ravens and having sacrificed to gain knowledge.  

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

10 hours ago, Samt said:

I don't think there is intended to be a connection.  The old ancient thing that leads Aginor and Balthamel to the Eye is Mashadar

I think the reference is to Shomesta the Green Man - the Nym may even have been a creation of Aginor before his conversion to the shadow.

11 hours ago, Samt said:

Mat is definitely connected to Odin from Norse mythology at least by symbolism.  One eyed man in a top hat with a spear associated with Ravens and having sacrificed to gain knowledge.

From the point of view of circular events it would be more accurate to say that (in Jordan's world) the mythical Odin was a remembrance of an earlier figure with similar characteristics to Mat in this cycle.

[Samt]

2 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

I think the reference is to Shomesta the Green Man - the Nym may even have been a creation of Aginor before his conversion to the shadow.

From the point of view of circular events it would be more accurate to say that (in Jordan's world) the mythical Odin was a remembrance of an earlier figure with similar characteristics to Mat in this cycle.

I don't think they were able to track Someshta.  Aginor states that they were looking for the eye of the world and tracked Rand and friends to find it. They didn't come to the eye of the world to find Rand and frineds.  But Someshta was always at the eye of the world. Why would they wait for Rand and friends to get there if they could have tracked Someshta there at any time?

 

In regards to Odin, I was speaking from a literary symbolism perspective rather than the in universe explanation.  In universe, it might also be that we are living in an age that remembers Mat as the legend of Odin.

[Andra]

On 5/2/2024 at 12:12 AM, Samt said:

Why would they wait for Rand and friends to get there if they could have tracked Someshta there at any time?

Because they weren't "out" yet.

Except for Ishamael, all the Forsaken were still trapped in the Bore until the Seals started failing - extremely recently in the story.  As far as why they couldn't have just tracked Someshta?  It's because (by design) he wasn't actually in the world unless and until someone's need called him.

 

This was the first time since any of the Forsaken got out that the Green Man was touching the world in a way that made him detectable to them.

 

Remember that Mashadar was created more than a thousand years AFTER the Forsaken were trapped.  It would have been a new thing to them, not something ancient.  Only the things at the Eye would have been ancient to them.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

54 minutes ago, Andra said:

Remember that Mashadar was created more than a thousand years AFTER the Forsaken were trapped.  It would have been a new thing to them, not something ancient.  Only the things at the Eye would have been ancient to them.

To be fair, we don't know this. As far as I can remember at least, we only know that the Third Age Aes Sedai knew nothing of Mashadar. 

 

While obviously the AoL Aes Sedai knew nothing of Arhidol, there is nothing saying that they had not encountered it before. At least, I'm pretty sure that Mashadar predated Mordeth, so could have been known of in the Second Age. Or am I misremembering?

[Andra]

The only thing we can go by in the story is the explanation given by Moiraine in EotW.  It's certainly possible that she was mistaken, but she is nevertheless clear in that explanation.

According to the history she related, Mashadar was an evil that was created by men in their hatred of the Shadow during the Trolloc Wars.  It attacks Shadowspawn even more vigorously than any other living things, which is why the trollocs chasing the Emond's Fielders had to be driven into Shadar Logoth.  It also couldn't leave the city until Fain enabled it to much later.

It would be odd for this preference in victims to have developed before even Aginor created them.  If he knew about it, it would still have been something new for him.  Not ancient.

 

It could be that, like Machin Shin, Mashadar was born of the Taint.  But its antagonism to Shadowspawn and its being tied to Shadar Logoth both strongly imply that Moiraine was right about when and why it was created.  And again, the Taint was brand new for the just-released Forsaken.  They had either not seen any of this until just before they were trapped, or not until after they were released.

 

 

There are a number of things (like a'dams or the Warder Bond) that are old to the people living at the end of the Third Age, but which the Forsaken have never heard of.  I believe Mashadar is another one.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Certainly what you say rings true - I cannot help but remember somethings saying that Mashadar was older than Mordeth, perhaps in Fain's ramblings, but those parts about him thinking about his "self" being comprised of many different entities and forces, I am sure I could have misunderstood or misremembered.

[Bugglesley]

While I agree that Mashadar falls neatly into that fun "ancient but not like ancient" category that I really enjoy about RJ's writing, and that it's always a fun fantasy trope for the heroes to unlock something hidden from evil only to be the ones to reveal it to evil.. Aginor does directly point at Mat when saying “an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy” led them to the Eye.

 

Possible ways this can make sense, in order of how much I'd buy them:

 

1) Ishy, as the leader of the Trolloc Wars, has tangled directly with Mashadar and there has been at least one team meeting since the two of them popped out and he's caught them up on the trail it leaves in the Pattern.

2) By the point, Fain has connected with Mordeth; even as he himself sits cooling his heels in Fal Dara's dungeons, it's possible that we now have a game of magical soul telephone: the DO can sense Fain, and Fain can sense the dagger. This also covers the "old friend" angle, as while Mashadar is unquestionably evil it'd still be tough for a Forsaken to call it a "friend."

3) The Crypt Keeper Duo were canonically very close to the edge of the Bore; not as close as Ishy, but exposed to the ravages of time. Especially with Aginor so directly connected to the Trollocs, might they have felt out Mashadar's battle with the Shadow and established enough of a connection to track the dagger?

4) Mordeth is/was a carrier of some violent, paranoid anti-shadow-but-still-evil thing that bubbled up during the War of Power, was defeated someway somehow by either side, and spread to Aridhol/Shadar Logoth in a way that Moiraine/3rd Age history would record as starting there. The story does have Mordeth arrive prior to his mind-poison spreading, eventually creating Mashadar. Was Mordeth patient 0 of a novel evil, or just a carrier/seed of an even older one that had been lurking, waiting 1000 years after the Breaking for things to get bad enough that it could again find fertile ground for Mashadarification?

 

Edited May 6 by Bugglesley

[Andra]

I would actually go with 

5) The Old Blood runs strong in the Two Rivers. 

By far strongest of all in Mat, who had started spouting the Old Tongue in the heat of battle even before Shadar Logoth and the Mashadar.  The dagger didn't give him that connection, it simply created the holes that the Finns filled with other men's memories.  Nor did it create his interest in battles and strategy, which we see on the road to Baerlon.

Mat was uniquely connected to the past in a way that none of the others were, even as early in the story as that.  It's not remotely a stretch that the Forsaken would have recognized that connection, and been able to sense the "Son of Battles" enough to follow them.

[Samt]

On 5/6/2024 at 7:46 AM, Bugglesley said:

Aginor does directly point at Mat when saying “an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy” led them to the Eye.

I was thinking this was the case, but couldn't remember for sure and haven't had a chance to find the section in the book.  The old thing is definitely either Mat or associated with Mat.  

[Andra]

5 hours ago, Samt said:

On 5/6/2024 at 8:46 AM, Bugglesley said:

Aginor does directly point at Mat when saying “an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy” led them to the Eye.

I was thinking this was the case, but couldn't remember for sure and haven't had a chance to find the section in the book.  The old thing is definitely either Mat or associated with Mat.  

 

Here is the pertinent passage:

EotW Chapter 50 "The Eye of the World"

Quote

  "Who are you?"  Lan's stance was cautious, his hand on his sword hilt.  "How did you come here?  If you are seeking the Green Man---"

  "He guided us."  The hand that pointed at Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope.  Mat took a step back, eyes widening.  "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.  But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished.  The other man stood as if he would never speak.

 

I always read that as if Mat (or his soul, anyway) was the "old friend, old enemy" he was talking about.  Not the dagger he carried, or the blackness it infected him with.  Mat who unknowingly shouted the battle cries of Manetheren in the Old Tongue, and who was probably the current incarnation of a ta'veren who had commanded forces on both sides of the field for thousands of years.

 

I suppose RJ could have intended it to be referring to Mashadar, of course.  But I never read it that way.

[Bugglesley]

15 hours ago, Andra said:

 

Here is the pertinent passage:

EotW Chapter 50 "The Eye of the World"

I always read that as if Mat (or his soul, anyway) was the "old friend, old enemy" he was talking about.  Not the dagger he carried, or the blackness it infected him with.  Mat who unknowingly shouted the battle cries of Manetheren in the Old Tongue, and who was probably the current incarnation of a ta'veren who had commanded forces on both sides of the field for thousands of years.

 

I suppose RJ could have intended it to be referring to Mashadar, of course.  But I never read it that way.

 

Thank you for the full context. I still think it's the dagger. Issues I have with the Mat Soul theory are:

- Either the dagger or Mashadar could sensibly called an "old thing," while that doesn't make as much sense for a soul

- I get your argument here, that he's uniquely connected, but even in the early going before I don't think Mat is any more connected to the past than other members of the EF5. Egwene also shouts in the Old Tongue in EoTW and gets a few "Tai'shar Manetheren"s, Perrin is directly linked to countless battles with the DO through the wolves, Rand is.. well uh he's permanently bound to the DO through the pattern as its eternal enemy. Only Nynaeve doesn't really have something. The other three all have souls/past lives/connections to the past and I don't know if Mat's would be unique enough for him to be singled out/tracked.

- Even if he were that distinct, several other Forsaken spend a significant amount of time and effort trying to track him down in the last few books, and never once do they think "oh yeah we can smell his soul." The thing that's changed about him between these two timeframes is the severing of his connection to Mashadar.)

- The "old friend" thing also bugs me, there are many instances in the books where Mat flashes back to his old lives and, while he fights on all sides of many battles, they're all post-breaking; and even with the Trolloc Wars in that time he is absolutely never once fighting on the Shadow's side. With how often those memories get mined to traumatize Mat, RJ would have certainly mentioned if he was carrying memories of carting off children to Trolloc cookpots. I don't think "on both sides" is accurate if you include the Shadow as a side.

[Samt]

On a related but tangential note, is the temporal density of reincarnation ever established?  We know that it took LTT 3000 years to come back as Rand, but we are not ever definitively told that he didn't live other lives in between (perhaps unremarkable and perhaps in very significant roles that weren't linked to the dragon).  We also don't know if more frequent reincarnatio is common even if the LTT spirit did wait 3000 years. 

 

I don't think that all of Mat's memories come from past lives of his soul.  They are just people that went to the Finns and made a trade and so the Finns have their memories and can share them with Mat.  Of course, Mat is disturbed by the implication that this means they also now have access to his real memories.  And since Mat's memories include past deaths, he concludes that travelling to the Finns actually gives them access to your future memories as well.  

 

As @Bugglesley said, the tracking Mat's soul hypothesis doesn't really make sense in the larger story.  It may be that the original intention was different (maybe early plans had a different role for Mat), but in the story as written, I think Mashadar is the only logical explanation for Aginor's statement.  That does raise some problems with how Aginor is able to recognize if having been in the bore since before Mashadar was created.  But I think it's likely that other evils of the same type have existed and that Aginor is able to recognize it even though he hasn't seen it before specifically.  

[Blackbyrd]

On 5/8/2024 at 9:49 AM, Bugglesley said:

 

Thank you for the full context. I still think it's the dagger. Issues I have with the Mat Soul theory are:

- Either the dagger or Mashadar could sensibly called an "old thing," while that doesn't make as much sense for a soul

- I get your argument here, that he's uniquely connected, but even in the early going before I don't think Mat is any more connected to the past than other members of the EF5. Egwene also shouts in the Old Tongue in EoTW and gets a few "Tai'shar Manetheren"s, Perrin is directly linked to countless battles with the DO through the wolves, Rand is.. well uh he's permanently bound to the DO through the pattern as its eternal enemy. Only Nynaeve doesn't really have something. The other three all have souls/past lives/connections to the past and I don't know if Mat's would be unique enough for him to be singled out/tracked.

- Even if he were that distinct, several other Forsaken spend a significant amount of time and effort trying to track him down in the last few books, and never once do they think "oh yeah we can smell his soul." The thing that's changed about him between these two timeframes is the severing of his connection to Mashadar.)

- The "old friend" thing also bugs me, there are many instances in the books where Mat flashes back to his old lives and, while he fights on all sides of many battles, they're all post-breaking; and even with the Trolloc Wars in that time he is absolutely never once fighting on the Shadow's side. With how often those memories get mined to traumatize Mat, RJ would have certainly mentioned if he was carrying memories of carting off children to Trolloc cookpots. I don't think "on both sides" is accurate if you include the Shadow as a side.

 

I like the idea that this points to Mashadar but the source material is not in favor of it. I'm not sure it's even wrong- could be there was more to it when RJ first made out book one- which ends so very differently than any other book.

 

Point 3 here- I would say this could equally fall down flat by way of such things as- Rand has learned to shield his dreams, Perrin becomes untraceable through his wolf dream, Mat in fact no longer becomes Mat

 

More important is point 4- Mat is never clear about anything. Especially after the memory gain. He may not have ever of had -and in fact it's likely impossible given Rand's ability to purge at the end- any memories of Darkfriends but it's not at impossible that at some point he was mobilized against the both the shadow and the light. Probably only Rand- or perhaps Nynaeve is more annoyed with the Creator than Mat. I think even that Hawkwing mentions that he had fought Mat before? And I would even say maybe Hawkwing isn't even quintessentially of the 'light'. 

 

Generally it's all quite unknown  and honestly I think this died with RJ, but it does again make me wonder further about this connection between Mat's lost  eye and Eye of the World

Edited May 20 by Blackbyrd