Rank romances from the books

[Elendir]

R. Jordan isn't known for writing romances well. But how bad it was or was it bad for you at all? Let's stay with main characters only and sort them in ranking. Also which romances were good, which bad and which in between?

My take on it:

 

GOOD

1. Min-Rand; only one well done romance probably. I would sacrifice quartople in second for it. Min character is reduced to viewings only in TW show now however, no wit no    independence, so I am quite afraid.

2. Nyn-Lan; I wrote that there is only one well done romance. It is because we don't get to see intimate moments between Nyn and Lan. It is probably good if we look at other romances. I feel that they has good chemistry together. So they deserve place her in good category.

IN BEETWEN

3. Tuon-Mat; marriage established on prophecy is hardly romantic construct. However they started respect each other and so it could play well if it has more time to be build in the books.

4. Avi-Rand; although tsundere type can work well in romance building. Their relationship froze in some moment and didn't develop father. They still get to respecting each other so only time was missing.

BAD

5. Elayne-Rand; they never get over crush on physical level. When I understand why Elayne teared down Rand`s banners, her renaming of Rand`s school show that she didn't understand Rand at all. His deepest fears and desires meant nothing to her.

6. Faile-Perrin; oil and water bad chemistry, they don't match at all. They were more like domestic violence then romance. Yet they are not last.

7. Egy-Gawyn; poor country girl and prince charming? Mighty aes sedai and her warden? No fairy tale like this. Self absorbed prick who made her fall and her greatest moment, but later wasn't his merit.

 

What is your take on this?

There were other couples, but I think that they shouldn't be compared with main characters. You can make separate comparison for them.

Edited February 5 by Elendir

[HeroAndros]

I think you've got a pretty good ranking there. I kind of disagree aboout Nyn and Lan being good though. In the scope of it all they spent so much of the books away from each other, and the few times they were together Nyn was a spoiled brat. While Lan did need someone who could tear him away from the whole "All I have to offer is death" kind of thing, I don't think Nyn was the best option.

 

Definitely agree that Min was the absolute best of the three, and yes Elayne went full Princess mode when she tore Rand's name off of literally everything. The city makes sense, the school was just petulant.

[Samt]

I would add Siuan/Gareth, Moiraine/Thom, and Galad/Berelain as main character romances.  That said, those 3 definitely feel a bit like extra people getting paired (feels like Pierre/Natasha to me).  

 

I think that to really rate the romances, you need some criteria.  In particular, I would suggest categories such as 

 

1.  Relationship health

2.  Believability

3. Enjoyability to reader.

[HeroAndros]

I'm with you there. I know a lot of people support the Thom/Moraine romance but it really does feel like that came out of nowhere.

 

At least with Siuan and Gareth you can see something growing between them at Salidar.

[Samt]

21 minutes ago, HeroAndros said:

I'm with you there. I know a lot of people support the Thom/Moraine romance but it really does feel like that came out of nowhere.

 

At least with Siuan and Gareth you can see something growing between them at Salidar.

I actually like Thom/Moiraine myself.  I just don't think we really get much of the backstory.  I think part of the problem is that we just don't get any of their POV on the subject.  

[HeroAndros]

2 hours ago, Samt said:

I actually like Thom/Moiraine myself.  I just don't think we really get much of the backstory.  I think part of the problem is that we just don't get any of their POV on the subject.  

There's very little POV there, and the only hint we even get to it being a thing is in that letter and even Mat, who really isn't all that observant anyway, was floored.

[Elendir]

Morgase -Tallanvor, Egeanin -Domon, Greens and their wardens. 

I didn't aim to list all romances the books touch on. It is important to draw line somewhere to has comparable couples.

Edited February 6 by Elendir

[JyP]

I would also say Morgase - Thom - while in the past, we have both characters views on their relationship.

 

I think it is interesting to compare Morgase / Elayne relationships : both have kind of the same misgivings - being QUEENS rank a lot in their reasoning, but they feel somewhat immature on relationships once they take off the queen mask.

 

Same feeling or digs about the queen of Saldaea (Tenobia). On the other hand, we have Tylin vs Mat or Berelain vs Perrin...

[WheelofJuke]

On 2/5/2024 at 7:28 AM, Elendir said:

R. Jordan isn't known for writing romances well. But how bad it was or was it bad for you at all? Let's stay with main characters only and sort them in ranking. Also which romances were good, which bad and which in between?

My take on it:

 

GOOD

1. Min-Rand; only one well done romance probably. I would sacrifice quartople in second for it. Min character is reduced to viewings only in TW show now however, no wit no    independence, so I am quite afraid.

2. Nyn-Lan; I wrote that there is only one well done romance. It is because we don't get to see intimate moments between Nyn and Lan. It is probably good if we look at other romances. I feel that they has good chemistry together. So they deserve place her in good category.

IN BEETWEN

3. Tuon-Mat; marriage established on prophecy is hardly romantic construct. However they started respect each other and so it could play well if it has more time to be build in the books.

4. Avi-Rand; although tsundere type can work well in romance building. Their relationship froze in some moment and didn't develop father. They still get to respecting each other so only time was missing.

BAD

5. Elayne-Rand; they never get over crush on physical level. When I understand why Elayne teared down Rand`s banners, her renaming of Rand`s school show that she didn't understand Rand at all. His deepest fears and desires meant nothing to her.

6. Faile-Perrin; oil and water bad chemistry, they don't match at all. They were more like domestic violence then romance. Yet they are not last.

7. Egy-Gawyn; poor country girl and prince charming? Mighty aes sedai and her warden? No fairy tale like this. Self absorbed prick who made her fall and her greatest moment, but later wasn't his merit.

 

What is your take on this?

There were other couples, but I think that they shouldn't be compared with main characters. You can make separate comparison for them.

This sums it up pretty nicely and I agree with your order. 

I loved the romances during RJ's books, but they mostly fell flat for me during BS's part of the series. 

While I thought RJ had some questionable moments (to say the least!) I felt his characterizations to be more...believable? Lived in? Not sure exactly what, but even during the worst of The Slog, Perrin-Faile still had "life" to their relationship, if that makes any sense.

 

Edited February 6 by WheelofJuke

[WheelofJuke]

The best romance in the book that felt the worst in BS's treatment was the Gareth Bryne/Suian Sanche arc. Man, I was pissed off at how that ended. Not necessarily the actual outcome, simply how it was written. 

No spots for Thom/Moiraine? I'd put them somewhere in the middle category. 

Mat and Tylin's "romance"? Probably dead last. 😐

 

[Vartija]

Rand & Min is the standout for me. They went through some tough times together and stood by each other. Avi & Rand is also quite charming in its silliness and I always wished we'd seen more of them together after Avi's acceptance of her feelings towards him. Early Elayne & Rand is also charming in a Disney fairytale kind of way, but towards the end it started to feel like Elayne saw Rand more like a status symbol than a person. 

 

I've always been quite forgiving about Perrin & Faile despite the "toxicity" of that relationship. Real life experience tells me there are plenty of couples who quarrell all the time but love each other fiercely at the same time. 

 

On the other end of the scale is probably Thom/Moiraine. There was just so little of it that it didn't feel beliavable and more like forced way to have everyone hook up with someone before the end. I don't hate it either because there's hardly any of it on paige but I easily could have done without it too. The weird thing is that it was somewhat telegraphed as early as TEOTW but still felt underdeveloped at the end. 

 

I agree that RJ wasn't great at writing romance but at the same time I often wanted more of it. The series would feel so much less without the romantic relationships. It's just kind of annoying that practically every romance had something really strange going on in it that made the reader a bit uncomfortable.  

[Kalessin]

After reading Warrior of the Altaii and reading Harriet's comment on a rushed draft of his for a romance novel which in the end he wasn't asked to write, I feel the greatest thing missing in all these romances, is the duck. (He'd written a draft love scene where a duck featured, for reasons best known to him. Ergo, if there's no duck, there's no romance.)

 

That said, and the duck safely stuffed and roasted, I too felt the Thom - Moiraine romance was so threadbare neither could use it for a cloak of any kind.

 

Elayne was too annoying for me to take seriously. Aviendha had more promise = she was in training to be a leader of her people, after all, and she'd had to do some serious growing up in the process, something which Rand didn't do until the very end. While Min was solid and reliable, and had a touch of humour and temper which the others didn't have, and that made her real to me.

 

I never felt Tylin and Mat had any kind of romance, or perhaps only in the eyes of the duck. She was using him, treating a foreign emissary as her toyboy; he was hanging on, following orders, and trying to break free. Not enough balance between the pair to make it a romance.

 

As far as Mat and Tuon - well, that's a strange case. She's trying to fit him into the rigidity of her society; he's realized she's the mysterious Daughter of the Nine Moons - fertility title - which he's been told he's to marry, and he's trying to work out who the heck she is, and in the process, tying himself in knots for her, falling so deeply in love with her he'll do anything to make her smile. While she's in the same predicament, though she's less willing to admit it.

[Delenn]

Hmmm ok, after all who can resist a good romance? 

 

Rand & Min ~ She's good for him, keeps him from brooding or becoming too full of himself without taking away the core of who he is for the most part. If anything perhaps she encourages it to blossom. He's good for her because he keeps her safe from those who'd exploit her visions. Their relationship is mostly believable and has a depth that others in the series lack. 

 

Rand & Avi ~ It was interesting, I particularly liked how the dynamic of prophecy and them drawn by it but ultimately not loving it is explored. So many times an author goes with the old prophecied relationship and the great romance it ends up being. It seems like an act of courage to explore how that could go sideways. 

 

Rand & Elyane ~ The less said about that scene in the throne room the better. He didn't deserve it and she was not a Queen in that moment. 

 

Avi & Egwene/Elyane ~ Oh, didn't think I'd go there? This is... complicated. I think Avi is in love with both of them in a way that has left her a bit confused and with some sort of transference between the two. So very complicated but here is where Avi's heart really lies. 

 

Lan & Nyn ~ While I loved their story in the book, I must say she doesn't deserve him. But I do respect her "All for my Beloved/ rally the troops" attitude in the end. 

 

Siuan & Gareth ~ Oh so adorable as they get close. 

 

Perrin & Faile ~ Meh, I do like how she'd fight to protect him. 

 

Mat & Tuon ~ Just what? 

 

Best romance you don't see?  

 

Rhuarc, Amys, & Lian ~ Even though this only has brief glimpses, the stunning warmth and love that they feel for each other is clear and the way they handle him between them, and how he reacts, is charming. And the clear love that Amys and Lian have for each other is also mentioned at one point I think. It's unclear if it extends to the physical, (it didn't seem like it to me) but it is still there. It makes me want to be a fly on that wall. 

 

Edited February 10 by Delenn

[CalebH]

I honestly dont see why people hate on the Egwene and Gawyn relationship so much i think that it was interesting to see a man like Gawyn always used to being on the forefront taking charge learning how to take a step back and work to help somone else lead. In his case this would be being a Warder helping his Aes Sedai. Egwene on the other hand had to learn to put her trust in Gawyn and let somone help her with the gigantic mountain of a role of being the Amrylin Seat after having to do all the politickies all on her own.

[Delenn]

Welcome CalebH! 

What you are describing is of course the ultimate, especially for an Aes Sedai. I love the poem, The Man Who Walks with the Healer ( author Manzaka Amanda) but it is not fully pg13, which we stick to here.  A part of me actually liked their relationship, or at least it's potential. I always wondered if she could get him to unbend. My issue starts with the fact that his sense of honour leads him to betray all he claims to love. Including her. Repeatedly. I was never able to trust him around her again. I would have much rather her choose Galad. Questioning where your Warder's loyalty lies, with you or elsewhere, would be more than most AS could bear, and more than an Amyrlin should ever have to think about. She needs to trust that bond more than anything and I don't think she ever could deep in her heart. 

[Elendir]

7 hours ago, CalebH said:

I honestly dont see why people hate on the Egwene and Gawyn relationship so much i think that it was interesting to see a man like Gawyn always used to being on the forefront taking charge learning how to take a step back and work to help somone else lead. In his case this would be being a Warder helping his Aes Sedai. Egwene on the other hand had to learn to put her trust in Gawyn and let somone help her with the gigantic mountain of a role of being the Amrylin Seat after having to do all the politickies all on her own.

 

That would be story of mighty aes sedai and her warden. Story we didn't get. He didn't listen what she need. He did what he wanted.

 

We know that wardens have occasionally disobeyed the orders of their aes sedai. But they had the best interest of their aes sedai in their mind. Gawyn followed his interests only.

[CalebH]

15 hours ago, Elendir said:

 

That would be story of mighty aes sedai and her warden. Story we didn't get. He didn't listen what she need. He did what he wanted.

 

We know that wardens have occasionally disobeyed the orders of their aes sedai. But they had the best interest of their aes sedai in their mind. Gawyn followed his interests only.

That is exactly why i thought it was a very good relationship idea Brandon brought in, a new view point on the relationship between a Warder and Aes Sedai. The key point being what happens when you put somone whos at the forefront of attention and glory for most of his entire life in the backseat? I absolutely do understand where your coming from though with Gawyn. Even after he became a warder his pov's were alot different from the other warders we've seen so far, much more self centered and independant, and most intriuging to me real(get it cus egwene says he' so real all the time). But i do see the flaw in this because even gaining the new role of a warrior who is meant to help his Aes Sedai protect the world he was still in his own glory gaining mindset.(Thanks for the feedback btw)

Edited February 12 by CalebH

[CalebH]

18 hours ago, Delenn said:

Welcome CalebH! 

What you are describing is of course the ultimate, especially for an Aes Sedai. I love the poem, The Man Who Walks with the Healer ( author Manzaka Amanda) but it is not fully pg13, which we stick to here.  A part of me actually liked their relationship, or at least it's potential. I always wondered if she could get him to unbend. My issue starts with the fact that his sense of honour leads him to betray all he claims to love. Including her. Repeatedly. I was never able to trust him around her again. I would have much rather her choose Galad. Questioning where your Warder's loyalty lies, with you or elsewhere, would be more than most AS could bear, and more than an Amyrlin should ever have to think about. She needs to trust that bond more than anything and I don't think she ever could deep in her heart. 

I can see where your coming from with the galad route and i agree it'd be an interesting story as well but i honestly dont think it would end up turning out much better if at all just because of the harshness and borderline tortue Egwene had to endure during the entire amyrlin process which i think was a big factor in the whole relationship problems leading her unable to trust a warder. In the process of gaining the true essence of an Aes Sedai in such a short time which takes most Aes Sedai hundreds of years in a short amount of time she lost something that even the most basic Aes Sedai had. I also must admit preferred Gawyn to Galad a'lot more and think that Berelain and him are kind of a perfect fit.(Thanks for the feedbackkkkk)

[Asthereal]

Okay let's give this a shot:

Good
- Rand & Aviendha. This is probably mainly because Aviendha is such an interesting character. She's our window into the Aiel culture, and her interactions with Rand were a blast to read. I felt like these two complemented each other the best, and Avi is my favourite of Rand's three wives.

(Yes, this hurts a bit, but the others are all in between or worse, in my opinion. Hey, romance wasn't Jordan's thing. That's okay. There's enough cool stuff in the series.)

In between
- Lan & Nynaeve. This one I can't put into good simply because of the extremely rocky start. This romance came absolutely out of nowhere, which forces me to withdraw many points. But I have to say: once the romance gets going properly, it's one of the best for sure, and the foreshadowing for that  has really nice moments here and there. But we have to wait so long for it to actually go anywhere that I was like: oh yeah, that was a thing a few books ago.
- Rand & Min. They are cute together, but at first I wasn't feeling this one, and while Min helps Rand stay somewhat human, beyond that she's just kind of there for large parts of the story. Perhaps me ranking this here is mainly because I'm team Aviendha, so feel free to chalk this one up to bias.

- Gareth & Siuan. Solid buildup in typical Jordan style: they don't get along at first, then get to know each other better, then start to respect each other, and from there fondness and onwards to love. This one is okay. Could have been good, but some parts are silly, and others are a tad clunky, so I can't really put it in good.
- Rand & Egwene. This felt like a natural small village romance. But I can't put it in good, as it never goes anywhere. It just lingers for a bit and then both get over it quickly enough for it not to affect what happens in the main story.
- Galad & Berelain. This one was inevitable. I can see how people see it as just another shipping to add some flavor, and the setup for this one is weak at best, but when it happened, my first thought was: yeah this was really the only sensible combo for these troublemakers. It deserved a different ending, though, in my opinion. Or more of one. Anyway, maybe this one objectively belongs in bad, but I'll leave it here.

Bad
- Rand & Elayne. The weakest of Rand's romances. It feels like a high school fling, and to me it never exceeds this. Elayne does grow a lot in the story, but especially in the second half of the series to me it feels like she grows away from Rand. But I'd say this is the best of the not good romances.

- Mat & Tuon. Their early interactions are fun, but the more they start to like each other, the less I like the romance somehow. I can't put my finger on exactly why. Perhaps I'll need a reread for this one.

- Perrin & Faile. This one I'll chalk up to pacing. They just don't learn. This is the main issue with Perrin in the story anyway: he learns too slowly, which resulted in Sanderson having to rush his arc towards expert Dreamworld user. In the romance we run into the same issue: they have the same problems for too long of a period. Perhaps this would be realistic in real life, but in a story it starts to drag and ultimately becomes frustrating AF.

- Gawyn & Egwene. This one started okay, but Gawyn as a character got worse and worse, to a point where I felt like Egwene should just ditch him and be done with it. There was potential here, though, if Gawyn had developed into a better person, but he ended up regressing somehow.

- Thom & Moiraine. This one was just a bad idea. Moiraine's return happens too late in the story, and while their getting together makes sense, there just isn't enough time. I would have left their relationship in a will they/won't they during the ending. But I guess that would have required Sanderson to throw away some of Jordan's work on the ending, which he really did not want to do.

 

There are others, but none stand out to me as noteworthy, and none would be able to get anywhere close to "good". Or did I forget an important one? 😛 Anyway, these are my thoughs. I didn't hate the romances, but ultimately it is one of the weakest aspects of the series.

Edited February 13 by Asthereal

[CalebH]

On 2/12/2024 at 3:40 AM, Asthereal said:

Okay let's give this a shot:

Good
- Rand & Aviendha. This is probably mainly because Aviendha is such an interesting character. She's our window into the Aiel culture, and her interactions with Rand were a blast to read. I felt like these two complemented each other the best, and Avi is my favourite of Rand's three wives.

(Yes, this hurts a bit, but the others are all in between or worse, in my opinion. Hey, romance wasn't Jordan's thing. That's okay. There's enough cool stuff in the series.)

In between
- Lan & Nynaeve. This one I can't put into good simply because of the extremely rocky start. This romance came absolutely out of nowhere, which forces me to withdraw many points. But I have to say: once the romance gets going properly, it's one of the best for sure, and the foreshadowing for that  has really nice moments here and there. But we have to wait so long for it to actually go anywhere that I was like: oh yeah, that was a thing a few books ago.
- Rand & Min. They are cute together, but at first I wasn't feeling this one, and while Min helps Rand stay somewhat human, beyond that she's just kind of there for large parts of the story. Perhaps me ranking this here is mainly because I'm team Aviendha, so feel free to chalk this one up to bias.

- Gareth & Siuan. Solid buildup in typical Jordan style: they don't get along at first, then get to know each other better, then start to respect each other, and from there fondness and onwards to love. This one is okay. Could have been good, but some parts are silly, and others are a tad clunky, so I can't really put it in good.
- Rand & Egwene. This felt like a natural small village romance. But I can't put it in good, as it never goes anywhere. It just lingers for a bit and then both get over it quickly enough for it not to affect what happens in the main story.
- Galad & Berelain. This one was inevitable. I can see how people see it as just another shipping to add some flavor, and the setup for this one is weak at best, but when it happened, my first thought was: yeah this was really the only sensible combo for these troublemakers. It deserved a different ending, though, in my opinion. Or more of one. Anyway, maybe this one objectively belongs in bad, but I'll leave it here.

Bad
- Rand & Elayne. The weakest of Rand's romances. It feels like a high school fling, and to me it never exceeds this. Elayne does grow a lot in the story, but especially in the second half of the series to me it feels like she grows away from Rand. But I'd say this is the best of the not good romances.

- Mat & Tuon. Their early interactions are fun, but the more they start to like each other, the less I like the romance somehow. I can't put my finger on exactly why. Perhaps I'll need a reread for this one.

- Perrin & Faile. This one I'll chalk up to pacing. They just don't learn. This is the main issue with Perrin in the story anyway: he learns too slowly, which resulted in Sanderson having to rush his arc towards expert Dreamworld user. In the romance we run into the same issue: they have the same problems for too long of a period. Perhaps this would be realistic in real life, but in a story it starts to drag and ultimately becomes frustrating AF.

- Gawyn & Egwene. This one started okay, but Gawyn as a character got worse and worse, to a point where I felt like Egwene should just ditch him and be done with it. There was potential here, though, if Gawyn had developed into a better person, but he ended up regressing somehow.

- Thom & Moiraine. This one was just a bad idea. Moiraine's return happens too late in the story, and while their getting together makes sense, there just isn't enough time. I would have left their relationship in a will they/won't they during the ending. But I guess that would have required Sanderson to throw away some of Jordan's work on the ending, which he really did not want to do.

 

There are others, but none stand out to me as noteworthy, and none would be able to get anywhere close to "good". Or did I forget an important one? 😛 Anyway, these are my thoughs. I didn't hate the romances, but ultimately it is one of the weakest aspects of the series.

I do agree with most of these but two, the Lan and Nynaeve romance and the Perrin and Faile romance. I honestly think Lan and Nynaeve was in the good tier just because of the dynamic of a man who had nothing to lose and wasen't afraid to die finds out he has something to live for for once. So much so that it pulls him from the brink of the warder madness that 100% of the time no warder should survive. Nynaeve character was rough around the edges at times but i also love how she and Lan were such amazing freinds and sometimes mentors to Rand helping him along his perilous journey of fighting madness in the form of Lews Therin. The Siuan and Bryne romance i would also classify in good tier although we did not know much about bryne till later books it was intruiging to see a once almost all powerful Amrlyin seat have to adjust to a more humble role and find that there are other things in life except guiding the fate and looking after the worlds protection. Gawyn and Egwene on the other hand...... i know alot of people will get mad at me for this but i honestly would put their romance in mid teir AND ILL STAND BY IT TO MY VERY LAST DROP OF SAIDIN. The reason being why is i think mostly the potential of the romance could have gone so far because of the wonderful concept i implicated. Egwene being a young women who has been thrust into a seat of power so quickly and having to learn the true essence of an Aes Sedai and being the Amrylin seat which set a GIANT duty on her shoulders which she was used to shouldering alone, now she had to learn to share that weight of duty like every Aes Sedai(outside of the red) did, with their warder. Gawyn on the other hand had to learn to step back away from the glory of the battlefront and let somone else take charge and learn to help from the shadows like a proper warder would for his Aes Sedai. (P.S. everyone has their own opinions and i respect yours fully and your reasons.) (GARETH,SIUAN,EGWENE AND GAWYNS DEATH BROKE ME AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO DIED. THE ENDING IS AMAZING THO BESIDES THAT.)

[Asthereal]

On 2/14/2024 at 5:29 AM, CalebH said:

I do agree with most of these but two, the Lan and Nynaeve romance and the Perrin and Faile romance. I honestly think Lan and Nynaeve was in the good tier just because of the dynamic of a man who had nothing to lose and wasen't afraid to die finds out he has something to live for for once. So much so that it pulls him from the brink of the warder madness that 100% of the time no warder should survive. Nynaeve character was rough around the edges at times but i also love how she and Lan were such amazing freinds and sometimes mentors to Rand helping him along his perilous journey of fighting madness in the form of Lews Therin. The Siuan and Bryne romance i would also classify in good tier although we did not know much about bryne till later books it was intruiging to see a once almost all powerful Amrlyin seat have to adjust to a more humble role and find that there are other things in life except guiding the fate and looking after the worlds protection. Gawyn and Egwene on the other hand...... i know alot of people will get mad at me for this but i honestly would put their romance in mid teir AND ILL STAND BY IT TO MY VERY LAST DROP OF SAIDIN. The reason being why is i think mostly the potential of the romance could have gone so far because of the wonderful concept i implicated. Egwene being a young women who has been thrust into a seat of power so quickly and having to learn the true essence of an Aes Sedai and being the Amrylin seat which set a GIANT duty on her shoulders which she was used to shouldering alone, now she had to learn to share that weight of duty like every Aes Sedai(outside of the red) did, with their warder. Gawyn on the other hand had to learn to step back away from the glory of the battlefront and let somone else take charge and learn to help from the shadows like a proper warder would for his Aes Sedai. (P.S. everyone has their own opinions and i respect yours fully and your reasons.) (GARETH,SIUAN,EGWENE AND GAWYNS DEATH BROKE ME AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO DIED. THE ENDING IS AMAZING THO BESIDES THAT.)

 

Hahaha don't sweat it! We all have our opinions and that's cool. 😅

 

With Lan & Nynaeve I'd agree except if you only read book one, you'd have to put that romance in bad. The setup just isn't there. Them liking eachother came out of nowhere and when I read it, I was like: huh where'd that come from? Contrast that to Rand & Aviendha and the difference is night and day. Rand & Avi get an entire 1000 page book to get to know each other, dislike each other at first, growing to respect each other and so on. When they finally get together it feels inevitable. And weird, but that's because Rand's supposed to be with Elayne. The way Aviendha deals with that did add to the dynamic though. She feels proper shame and has immense toh towards Elayne. But I disgress. If the Lan & Nynaeve romance had had a proper setup, for me it would probably have been fighting for the top spot. But setup is so important!

 

For the Siuan & Bryne romance I could get on the same page as you, but there's something off. I loved Siuan in books 2-3-4, but somehow the powerhouse personality of Siuan Sanche seemed to slowly diminish after that. I liked her character more in earlier books, and found myself not caring as much anymore when that romance started to come along.

 

Egwene's arc in books 11 and 12 RULES, but for the romance I shall agree to disagree. 😉 

 

Lastly, you mention disagreeing about Faile & Perrin, but you don't elaborate. Care to? 🙂 

[CalebH]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:54 AM, Asthereal said:

 

Hahaha don't sweat it! We all have our opinions and that's cool. 😅

 

With Lan & Nynaeve I'd agree except if you only read book one, you'd have to put that romance in bad. The setup just isn't there. Them liking eachother came out of nowhere and when I read it, I was like: huh where'd that come from? Contrast that to Rand & Aviendha and the difference is night and day. Rand & Avi get an entire 1000 page book to get to know each other, dislike each other at first, growing to respect each other and so on. When they finally get together it feels inevitable. And weird, but that's because Rand's supposed to be with Elayne. The way Aviendha deals with that did add to the dynamic though. She feels proper shame and has immense toh towards Elayne. But I disgress. If the Lan & Nynaeve romance had had a proper setup, for me it would probably have been fighting for the top spot. But setup is so important!

 

For the Siuan & Bryne romance I could get on the same page as you, but there's something off. I loved Siuan in books 2-3-4, but somehow the powerhouse personality of Siuan Sanche seemed to slowly diminish after that. I liked her character more in earlier books, and found myself not caring as much anymore when that romance started to come along.

 

Egwene's arc in books 11 and 12 RULES, but for the romance I shall agree to disagree. 😉 

 

Lastly, you mention disagreeing about Faile & Perrin, but you don't elaborate. Care to? 🙂 

I did some more delving into the earlier books and it actually opened my perspective of the setup between Lan and Nynaeve now and i can understand how there romance was kind of out of knowhere with not much detail if any at all that the two have feelings for each other until the point where Nynaeve confesses to Lan. I do agree with you on the setup issue now and i think that the romance definatly could have been closer to the top spot(Rand and Avi). Siuan on the other hand i think her character arc felt more like a challenge for herself of having to find a way to survive something was said to be basically certain death im the form of being stilled. I think that her overcoming this was something amazing which also showed how much of a strong willed Aes Sedai she was and an powerful amyrlin seat. And i think that her having to cope with the fact she may never be restored to her full power again and finding other ways to help in the final battle's preperation in her limited state was good for her and made me like her more as a character. Egwene did become a total beast during the last two books and she definatly went out with a bang(RIP ALL THE DEAD CAST WE LOVE YOU AND MISS YOU). Now for the Faile and Perrin romance i do agree it has many flaws attached to it but i dont think that it deserves to be placed in the low teirs with -cough- the likes of tom and moraine(we dont talk about this peice of writing) but i think it deserves an area in the mid teir mostly because of how much i admired Perrins resolve in having an inner war with himself and the love of his life being a steady foundation for him so that he doesent lose his mind in the wolf dream. I also think that Faile had some good moments as well especially when it came to doing the hard things that Perrin was either to busy or broken to do at some points(killing masema,making pacts etc). So all in all i do think i'd still put Lan and Nynaeve in a high teir, Faile and perrin in mid teir.(Peace out)

[Samt]

There are two related but ultimately separate subjective questions that I think are getting conflated in this thread.  

 

1.  Do the romances feel healthy, satisfying, and good for the characters involved?

 

2.  Does the writing of the romances by RJ and BS make them feel realistic, do they work for what else we know about the characters, do they contribute to the overall story, plot, and character development, and does it feel like the romance is well explained to the reader?  

 

Of course, both of these questions are at least somewhat subjective and can have reasonable differences of opinion.  But it only makes sense to discuss things when we agree which of these questions we are answering.  

 

For instance, I would rank Thom and Moiraine quite highly on the first question.  I'm somewhat of a sucker for a good happy ending and I think both of these characters deserve a happily ever after.  They both seem mature and well adjusted and reasonably able to make each other happy.  That said, this relationship gets low marks on the second question.  It doesn't really develop the characters or plot (other than creating a pretense for Moiraine's letter) and kind of drops out of nowhere.  We don't get much POV from the participants and it doesn't really have any sort of buildup.  It also doesn't really ask any interesting questions for the reader or make any interesting points about society or life or anything else.  

 

On the other hand, a contrasting relationship would be Tylin/Mat (not really a "romance" but still in the same category).  It gets abysmally low marks on the first question for obvious reasons.  However, it does tell us something about the characters, develops Mat, fleshes out the world, and builds the story.  It also feels realistic in a somewhat cynical way.  Moreover, the fact that it is a gender swap from what we would usually expect in this type of relationship raises interesting questions about sexual roles, society, and our notions of what is right and wrong, and how wrong something is.  For that reason, I give it a high rating in regard to the second question.