Why isn't Turning used more by the Shadow?

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I seem to remember that in both cases of compulsion and turning, there is an exception (although rare) that allows for the victim to resist the force projected at them. The most obvious example probably logain regarding turning, and I think maybe nyneave was able to resist compulsion somewhat. Something like the stronger ones sense of self the more they are able to resist. I wonder if that is why the shadow doesn’t simply attempt to turn Rand by force? I’m sure there are many more nuances involved but I don’t recall this tactic ever being used on Rand or for that matter, if the resources are available and most people are susceptible, why it’s not used more 

[Samt]

4 hours ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I seem to remember that in both cases of compulsion and turning, there is an exception (although rare) that allows for the victim to resist the force projected at them. The most obvious example probably logain regarding turning, and I think maybe nyneave was able to resist compulsion somewhat. Something like the stronger ones sense of self the more they are able to resist. I wonder if that is why the shadow doesn’t simply attempt to turn Rand by force? I’m sure there are many more nuances involved but I don’t recall this tactic ever being used on Rand or for that matter, if the resources are available and most people are susceptible, why it’s not used more 

Assuming we ignore recent podcasts, it is precisely Perrin’s sense of self and home that allows him to break the compulsion and kill Lanfear.  Which is also one of the biggest reasons I dislike the Lanfear reveal.  If it’s a trick, it feels really dirty to do to Perrin. It makes his entire arc a meaningless illusion.

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

On 3/24/2024 at 8:03 AM, Samt said:

Assuming we ignore recent podcasts, it is precisely Perrin’s sense of self and home that allows him to break the compulsion and kill Lanfear.  Which is also one of the biggest reasons I dislike the Lanfear reveal.  If it’s a trick, it feels really dirty to do to Perrin. It makes his entire arc a meaningless illusion.

I’m curious, what recent podcast? I’m not current with the podcast scene 

[Asthereal]

45 minutes ago, Lightfriendsocialmistress said:

I’m curious, what recent podcast? I’m not current with the podcast scene 

 

Brandon Sanderson was live with the Dusty Wheel on the AMOL 10 year anniversary and revealed a certain thing about the ending that made a lot of people go kinda floompy. You can find it on YouTube as well. But I don't think you missed it. It's got to do with Lanfear's part in the ending.

[Temeraire64]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:36 PM, Sabio said:

Don;t forget only people the Shadow can turn are who can channel but anyone is vulnerable to compulsion.  So what is it about being able to channel that leaves one vulnerable?

And compulsion is way easier than Turning because you can do it with a single channeler and no Myrdraal. Honestly I think it would have been better if only channelers were vulnerable to Compulsion; non-channelers being immune to mind control would balance out a bit the immense advantages channelers hold over them in every other respect.

 

In regards to why the Shadow doesn't use Turning more often, there are two possible reasons:

1) They'd have to get 13 Myrdraal into the Tower to do it to a lot of people at once, which isn't exactly easy

2) Most of the Black Ajah isn't all that into actually helping the Dark One. They're more focused on their own personal aggrandisement and, pre-canon, thought the whole Last Battle businesses would take place long after they were dead. Turning the Light-side Aes Sedai would actually make them less useful to the Shadow, because those Turned Aes Sedai can now replace them for most stuff, and why would they work to make themselves redundant?

[Andra]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:22 AM, Bugglesley said:

A neato thing I just think I realized, I've always kind of wondered why 13? Shouldn't it depend on the strength of the channellers? And I think now the answer is that the limiting factor is the Myrddraal, they're made to a template and can only "channel" so much of the TP, and the weird TP circle rules say you need a 1:1 ratio. I wonder if Moridin with Callendor could turn someone on his own, weaving both together with enough strength.

RJ introduced a number of rules into the mechanics of the One Power that are almost geometric in their nature.  For most things, the comparative strength of channelers matters.  But when you get to 13, the "geometry" outweighs that.

A circle of the thirteen weakest female channelers can shield the strongest possible male channeler, in effect without breaking a sweat.  It takes fewer channelers to maintain a shield once formed than to form it in the first place, but the same kind of "geometry" still comes into play.  Six can maintain a shield (as long as they are doing so actively, rather than tying it off) due to the way they are spaced around the shield because they can react as a group to counter anything the victim attempts.

 

So thirteen is the number for turning because that's the number where strength in the Power no longer matters.

Logain was unable to prevent being shielded when he was captured because his strength in the Power was irrelevant.  He resists turning not because of his strength in the Power, but because of his strength of will.

Edited May 5 by Andra

[bringbackthomsmoustache]

15 hours ago, Andra said:

A circle of the thirteen weakest female channelers can shield the strongest possible male channeler,

That is never actually stated.  Moiraine states that the thirteen weakest Aes Sedai could shield any male but there is a minimum strength threshold to be allowed to take the final test, so the weakest Aes Sedai are reasonably strong (e.g. Morgase so weak she could not touch the source consistently, and Sorilea stated to be too weak to be allowed to test).  There is nothing special about there being thirteen other than that is the largest circle possible with all females (it would be stronger than 12 but not by as much as the 12 would be stronger then 11 - there are diminishing returns for unbalanced circles).  Also all in character statements (even by non-black Ajah Aes Sedai) are subject to the unreliable narrator issue - an Aes Sedai can state as truth what she thinks is true even if she is wrong.

[Andra]

18 hours ago, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

That is never actually stated.  Moiraine states that the thirteen weakest Aes Sedai could shield any male but there is a minimum strength threshold to be allowed to take the final test, so the weakest Aes Sedai are reasonably strong (e.g. Morgase so weak she could not touch the source consistently, and Sorilea stated to be too weak to be allowed to test).  There is nothing special about there being thirteen other than that is the largest circle possible with all females (it would be stronger than 12 but not by as much as the 12 would be stronger then 11 - there are diminishing returns for unbalanced circles).  Also all in character statements (even by non-black Ajah Aes Sedai) are subject to the unreliable narrator issue - an Aes Sedai can state as truth what she thinks is true even if she is wrong.

It's true that Moiraine specifically mentioned Aes Sedai.  But Aes Sedai aren't the only female channelers we encounter that are capable of shielding other channelers - or forming circles.  At least some of whom we know were too weak to become Sisters.

But given that this mystical thirteen is the traditional number used to shield a false Dragon, and that there is apparently no record of a false Dragon so shielded ever breaking through the shield without outside help, I think we can take it as factual.  I don' think it's simply another example of an unreliable narrator.  I believe Jordan actually intended that particular statement to be taken as a meaningful truth.

 

And I believe he intended it to be because of the potential "geometry" of the situation.  Not simply because of the symmetry, but because it's symmetric in a way that doesn't provide any weak point to attack.  I believe that idea actually underlies his choice of thirteen for turning.