What is it about WOT that makes us keep coming back.

[Scarloc99]

Ok yet another read through recently and I found myself wondering, why if all the fantasy I have read do I keep coming back to this one to re read. If I think about it then it really should have been a 1 and done but for some reason I do keep returning. 
 

It isn’t the best written set of books, I mean there are moments that are brilliant, the build up and culmination of the battle of Emonds Field is one. But, there are actually very few moments through the series that pack this emotional impact. There is boundless repetition of prose. 

The characters are not consistently written well. 

Many of the evil Characters are very one dimensional on the page compared to the modern writing style, and many of the heroic characters are at various points just irritating. 
 

There is some very dated prose, crossing of arms under bosoms, men and women never understanding each other, many characters have very one dimensional emotions. 
 

the last 3 books are just ok (my opinion) BS did his best, but the final 3 books, while they have some good moments, just come across a bit flat overall. 
 

all those facts mean the series really should not be a keeper. In fact it was highlighted by a very good friend who finally read the series having seen the tv show, and they are just amazed anyone would go back and read it again, pointing out a ton of flaws that I can’t argue with. 
 

And yet. It is the series I have read the most, other maybe then Lord of the rings, but I can get through those books now over a weekend I have read them so often. 
 

There are series that I loved more, the chronicles of Thomas covenant is one that I personally feel is one of the most perfect fantasy series ever written. But it is WOT I keep coming back to.
 

The lore and the world is one, it was the first fantasy series I read that was about a post apocalyptic earth, and since then I have become fascinated with that kind of fiction (See on Apple TV and Horizon Zero Dawn are 2 examples of recent stories of that genre that I love). 

 

But I think it is also those rare but great moments, Emonds fields, Egwene taking control of the hall. Those are the moments that I think draw me back, the rest of it, well it  is easy to take in and just get through, I don’t find any of the books a slog or hard to read. Compared to Game of thrones it almost feels like an airport fiction book, something you can read quickly and easily. But it has a complexity to it that is unlike any cheap thriller. 
 

So what is it that keeps you coming back to WOT despite all the flaws with the writing that we all know are there (and many many on this forum are open about them). Why is it your go to despite maybe not being the perfect 5 star book that other fantasy novels might be. 

[Gypsum]

That is a very good question.

 

I read the Eye of the World when I was in the 8th grade, circa 1996. Read the next three or four quickly afterwards, totally hooked. It defined my writing, and it defined myself as a teenager. I loved it. My parents still have a pile of hardbacks in their house because I would get them as soon as they appeared. However, I got as far as Crossroads of Twilight, published while I was at uni, and then lost the will to keep reading somewhere in the middle of it.

 

Life happened, and I lost the Wheel of Time for a while, but I actually didn't. It was always there.  It was always in my own work. Those first ten books found their way into my own writing, too much because I have to work hard on paring down descriptions. A wee bit.

 

Years later, during lockdown, a pal told me that the Sanderson novels finishing the series were actually quite good (I know! People on this forum have views!), so I read a bunch of online cliff notes to catch up again, then downloaded them on Kindle. My love for WOT was rekindled. I finished the series, reread Crossroads (still an endless series of meetings, but after doing a PhD, I can speed read like a demon through tedious crap I don't care about), read Knife of Dreams (fewer meetings than Crossroads but still.....) and then restarted the whole thing at The Eye of the World. I can see all the flaws in the writing and narrative pacing, but when Jordan is good, he's on fire, and I still love it, and I love the characters, despite its quirky, and, at times, wildly repetitive prose and flagrant misogyny. It's so good that I can shrug that stuff off, to some extent. It's the weird, out-there friend you've been close to for many years, who's just going to be weird, and you love them anyway. You could connect to Jordan's characters and his world in such a deep way, despite and also because of his prose and narrative.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gypsum

[JyP]

I guess Wheel of Time has specific elements which are not covered as extensively in other fantasy series :

 

- LOTR also covers the End of an Age, a ranger which becomes the king and epic battles, and a Big Evil. But :

1) we don't have the Beginning of the New Age covered (in Randland we can see old structures - especially in The White Tower - being torn apart, a new scientific curiosity, and even new discoveries in the One Power). A big point for WoT is that the New Age is described through a lot of different PoV.

2) Aragorn is not relatable, he is very much a mysterious stranger, not a hobbit - and hobbits are recognized but not very much in their own homeland. While in WoT, we see the path for Rand being transformed from sheepherder to lord - and even more, each of the 5 Emond Fielders has their own path.

3) epic battles in LoTR are maybe better than WoT - I liked a lot the big analysis on it in ACOUP blog. If there's a part which strains imagination in WoT, it's the numbers of soldiers in the armies (wwwaaayyy too much, like GoT).

4) the Big Evil in WoT has more background and justification that LotR - with selfishness at the core, which is more believable than Morgoth and Sauron One Ring To Rule Them All.

5) relationships descriptions may be a bit dated, but I relate to them more than what happens in LoTR (no female characters except Eowyn...)

6) World description : there's way more cultures described in WoT than LOTR - or LOTR does not describe other cultures enough : sure we encounter Rohan riders or Gondor knights, but Antagonists Are Barbarous - as the only interaction which jumps to me would be whenever Merry and Pippin are kidnapped by the uruk-hai.

 

- Amber, likewise, has an amnesic protagonist in hospital being transformed into king of the universe : same problems than Aragorn, this guy has too much experience to be relatable. Duels may be better technically described (especially between Eric and Corwin), but I find duels in WoT more evocative (especially because I don't know how to parry in sixth form).

Edited October 6, 2023 by JyP

[Elgee]

I come from a rural farming community in South Africa.

We're mostly from German & Dutch descent, which means quite staid and puritanical characteristic. 

The Emonds Field people really resonate with that, which made me be able to relate to them from the start. It's very difficult for me to do that with most book.

Leading on to the Tower, I just fell in love with that set-up too.

From there, I became a rabid fan ... LoL

To date I've read most of the books over 20 times, and the earliest ones over 30 times. The last 3 ... well, twice.

[books of Robert Jordan]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:22 AM, Scarloc99 said:

It isn’t the best written set of books, I mean there are moments that are brilliant,  But, there are actually very few moments through the series that pack this emotional impact. There is boundless repetition of prose. 

The characters are not consistently written well. 

Many of the evil Characters are very one dimensional on the page compared to the modern writing style, and many of the heroic characters are at various points just irritating. 
 

There is some very dated prose, crossing of arms under bosoms, men and women never understanding each other, many characters have very one dimensional emotions.

 

 the chronicles of Thomas covenant

 

But I think it is also those rare but great moments,

Been on WOT boards since 1996. (Maybe DM was the first proper board (1998), anyway, I refer them as messageboards.) So, I have seen 'your' post a great many times in the last 27 years.

This post should look like a massive array of 'disagree, disagree' etc. but I will write a very short comment to express my feelings.

1. Show me a fantasy or sci-fi series where the first six books can match the first six books of WOT. Name one. You cant, because there's no such a series.
(It goes without saying that Robert Jordan is not Joyce, Faulkner etc, but in his field TEOTW–LOC is unmatched.)
2. There are many, many moments of brilliance, and talking about emotional impacts, well there are many of them too.

3. There are bigger problem in the prose than repetition. (And the average reader finds them useful.)

4. Characters: see below.

5. Many people exist even without a dimension. And: see below.

6. Ah, the so-called 'modern writing style'. Again, name these unworldly geniuses. And how were they able to exceed Joyce, Faulkner etc? Who are these hidden gems?

7. Ah, the so-called 'dated prose'. Jordan deliberately chose a certain style, a certain set of words etc. And: see below.

8. TC: no comment...

9. Again, there so many great moments even in TEOTW (all right, I'm biased, because of reading (with my (failing) eyes) it so many times that I cannot put a number to it)

This is the below. 😀

 

I agree with Robert Jordan:

 

Question: Why do you think the World of Time series is so popular?

Robert Jordan: 'I really don't know. If I knew, I would guarantee that I could do it again. I think it is all a good story. The characters seem to be real people. They behave in the way real people behave. Perhaps that has something to do with it.'

 

Robert Jordan: 'A lot of people are as fascinated with the individual characters as they are with the story. They talk to me about the characters as if they are people they know. I've tried to make them seem like real people—they're not perfect, they lie to one another sometimes, they try to put the best face on things even with friends. I've tried to make the world seem a place solid enough for people to visualize, not just a backdrop for the characters.'

I heard and read so many times that real people behave so differently in real life: my experiences say otherwise, so I think the characters in the books behave as real men and women, and when the foundation–basis–cornerstone of a series is duality, yes, there has to be a constant confrontation between the two genders. (And if you go back, and read classic books, plays, poems, then you will see that our whole life–culture based on collisions between men and women. Like it or not.)

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

Been on WOT boards since 1996. (Maybe DM was the first proper board (1998), anyway, I refer them as messageboards.) So, I have seen 'your' post a great many times in the last 27 years.

This post should look like a massive array of 'disagree, disagree' etc. but I will write a very short comment to express my feelings.

1. Show me a fantasy or sci-fi series where the first six books can match the first six books of WOT. Name one. You cant, because there's no such a series.
(It goes without saying that Robert Jordan is not Joyce, Faulkner etc, but in his field TEOTW–LOC is unmatched.)
2. There are many, many moments of brilliance, and talking about emotional impacts, well there are many of them too.

3. There are bigger problem in the prose than repetition. (And the average reader finds them useful.)

4. Characters: see below.

5. Many people exist even without a dimension. And: see below.

6. Ah, the so-called 'modern writing style'. Again, name these unworldly geniuses. And how were they able to exceed Joyce, Faulkner etc? Who are these hidden gems?

7. Ah, the so-called 'dated prose'. Jordan deliberately chose a certain style, a certain set of words etc. And: see below.

8. TC: no comment...

9. Again, there so many great moments even in TEOTW (all right, I'm biased, because of reading (with my (failing) eyes) it so many times that I cannot put a number to it)

This is the below. 😀

 

I agree with Robert Jordan:

 

Question: Why do you think the World of Time series is so popular?

Robert Jordan: 'I really don't know. If I knew, I would guarantee that I could do it again. I think it is all a good story. The characters seem to be real people. They behave in the way real people behave. Perhaps that has something to do with it.'

 

Robert Jordan: 'A lot of people are as fascinated with the individual characters as they are with the story. They talk to me about the characters as if they are people they know. I've tried to make them seem like real people—they're not perfect, they lie to one another sometimes, they try to put the best face on things even with friends. I've tried to make the world seem a place solid enough for people to visualize, not just a backdrop for the characters.'

I heard and read so many times that real people behave so differently in real life: my experiences say otherwise, so I think the characters in the books behave as real men and women, and when the foundation–basis–cornerstone of a series is duality, yes, there has to be a constant confrontation between the two genders. (And if you go back, and read classic books, plays, poems, then you will see that our whole life–culture based on collisions between men and women. Like it or not.)

Chronicles of Thomas covenant are hands down better then the first 6 books in entirety, books 4-6 of wot maybe match but the first 3 do not. Covenant also showed how you make a reluctant hero a flawed lead character. For me it is the standard of fantasy blowing LOTR out of the water. 

Dune as a sci fi series easily matches 4-6 and again dune is better then eotw. 
 

that is 2, I could include the eisenhorn series, although that is really a series of trilogies, and the 40k universe is a diverse universe created by a number of writers and game designers. 
 

The first 3 books have a lot of great moments but also in my opinion and the opinion of others I know so many flaws, like you I have been reading it 20 years and I can accept it for those flaws but they are there. But this is all opinion and I am not going to say your wrong same as I won’t say I am wrong. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Scarloc99

[EirikDaude]

11 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

Question: Why do you think the World of Time series is so popular?

Robert Jordan: 'I really don't know. If I knew, I would guarantee that I could do it again. I think it is all a good story. The characters seem to be real people. They behave in the way real people behave. Perhaps that has something to do with it.'

 

Robert Jordan: 'A lot of people are as fascinated with the individual characters as they are with the story. They talk to me about the characters as if they are people they know. I've tried to make them seem like real people—they're not perfect, they lie to one another sometimes, they try to put the best face on things even with friends. I've tried to make the world seem a place solid enough for people to visualize, not just a backdrop for the characters.'

 

I agree with this as the main reason so many people love the Wheel of Time. The characters are just so relateable. Sure, there are times they behave like idiots, and there are times when so much could have been solved if they just talked about their problems, about their doubts and feelings.

 

But yeah, a lot of people do really have trouble talking about stuff like that, and I think recognizing that is one of the big strengths of RJ's writing. Maybe he takes it a bit over the top sometimes, particularly the conflict between men and women, but considering he wanted to make overcoming those differences and working together one of the big themes in his novels I can see why he did it.

 

7 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

Chronicles of Thomas covenant are hands down better then the first 6 books in entirety, books 4-6 of wot maybe match but the first 3 do not. Covenant also showed how you make a reluctant hero a flawed lead character. For me it is the standard of fantasy blowing LOTR out of the water. 

Dune as a sci fi series easily matches 4-6 and again dune is better then eotw. 
 

that is 2, I could include the eisenhorn series, although that is really a series of trilogies, and the 40k universe is a diverse universe created by a number of writers and game designers. 
 

The first 3 books have a lot of great moments but also in my opinion and the opinion of others I know so many flaws, like you I have been reading it 20 years and I can accept it for those flaws but they are there. But this is all opinion and I am not going to say your wrong same as I won’t say I am wrong. 

 

I've got to disagree with you on those two series being better than  WoT. For Thomas Covenant I made it most of the way through book 1 before deciding on dropping it, so it does not even compare to EotW for me.

 

Dune is a series I read all the way through, but I haven't reread any of them except for the first one.

 

I might argue that the Dresden Files or the Discworld books are series which drag me in more than WoT, but they are a very different fantasy-genres than what Robert Jordan wrote, and I don't think I've reread either more times than WoT. 

[Scarloc99]

7 hours ago, EirikDaude said:

 

I agree with this as the main reason so many people love the Wheel of Time. The characters are just so relateable. Sure, there are times they behave like idiots, and there are times when so much could have been solved if they just talked about their problems, about their doubts and feelings.

 

But yeah, a lot of people do really have trouble talking about stuff like that, and I think recognizing that is one of the big strengths of RJ's writing. Maybe he takes it a bit over the top sometimes, particularly the conflict between men and women, but considering he wanted to make overcoming those differences and working together one of the big themes in his novels I can see why he did it.

 

 

I've got to disagree with you on those two series being better than  WoT. For Thomas Covenant I made it most of the way through book 1 before deciding on dropping it, so it does not even compare to EotW for me.

 

Dune is a series I read all the way through, but I haven't reread any of them except for the first one.

 

I might argue that the Dresden Files or the Discworld books are series which drag me in more than WoT, but they are a very different fantasy-genres than what Robert Jordan wrote, and I don't think I've reread either more times than WoT. 

See eye of the world took me 4 attempts to actually get through originally, if I had not bought books 1-6 all at once I would probably have just put it into charity. I remember I lent the book to 4 friends while I was struggling to start it and they also all didn’t finish it. 

 

So there can be no absolute thing here, my question is not is WOT the best fantasy series ever, in my opinion it isn’t, I also personally disagree that the characters behave normally, they really don’t in many many cases, they don’t learn from mistakes to an almost parody level, they are meant to be young adults but at times behave like young children. But also the writing style in itself is, again in my opinion, not great at times. 
 

but yea this thread was why despite the fact that I personally can find so many issues with it, do I keep coming back and re reading in a way that, for instance, I don’t with Thomas covenant, despite feeling that the TC series is far far better.

[Kalessin]

For me it's the female trollocs ... once you have them tied up in weaves of air, they don't even realize it's a Dreadlord and not a male trolloc who's turned up ... would I lie to you? 😉

 

Speaking facetiously, I think what really caught my attention the first time I read a book in the series was the way everything was plotted. I opened the series at book 6, Lord of Chaos, and had no idea of who the characters were. Mat amused me; Perrin puzzled me; I did worry that Rand was going to be another Thomas Covenant-type character, without the peculiar type of language that Stephen Donaldson used (sign of a bilingual who isn't completely at home in his official primary language). I had no idea who the Aiel were, not a clue who the supergirls were, and Nynaeve started off by grating me.

 

It was the way the rescue mission was plotted that dragged me in. Everything was worked out that everything that happened, was set up for apparently different ends, except for the rescuers setting out from Cairhien. And once that had me hooked, I went out and bought the Eye of the World, and every following book, because I had to know how the Wheel of Time had been set up, and why these characters did these things and said these things, etc.

[Asthereal]

What keeps some of us coming back to the series is quite simple: quality.

Quality in the worldbuilding, characters, storylines and writing style.

 

But let's face it: the Wheel of Time is not for everyone. Some get stuck on the slower pace, some dislike the repetitive descriptions, some don't click with the often stubborn and slow-to-learn characters, some don't appreciate the many subplots and some abandon the series because it wasn't finished by the author who started it. WoT isn't perfect, and I completely understand if people hate it. But...

 

I've never seen stronger character arcs than in WoT. Rand and Egwene especially have incredible journeys. I've never seen a magic system this clear but still wonderous. I've never seen a world this rich but still completely comprehensible. And the only series I know that comes close to, might even match, the level of storytelling from WoT will probably never be finished. Sure, Jordan passed away and was unable to finish the series himself, but we did get an ending, and the ending is absolutely worth it despite the author change. And I'm saying this fully aware that Sanderson is almost the opposite to Jordan in terms of writing style.

 

There's just so much to love about WoT, and if you truely let it in, it can burrow in your heart like a tick. For me personally, I don't think anything else will be able to push past WoT, ever. 🙂 

[Elgee]

35 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

I've never seen a magic system this clear but still wonderous.

 

This! This is the most important factor for me, I think. Followed very closely by this:

 

36 minutes ago, Asthereal said:

I've never seen a world this rich but still completely comprehensible.

 

It literally feels like a Turning of the Wheel for Earth.

And the "magic" could be so ... possible ... just think of telekinesis.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

For me, the sum is very much greater than the total of the parts. 

 

But the world building, and the magic system are stand outs. As the story really is a story of from the breaking to Tarmon Gaidon, not just the time covered in the books. The magic system makes sense, somehow, as bizarre as that is to say. 

 

Many of the story lines are very weak, or go nowhere. The ending is terrible, and I refuse to pin all the blame on Sanderson for that. For large sections of the story Rand is working on an agenda that we know nothing of as his, among other things, his visit to the Finn are kept from us. Way too much is driven by prophecy. Min drives the plot more than anything else in a completely arbitrary way. The pacing is all over the place, as if it were a saga that was going to cover the whole natural lives of the EF5, then suddenly hurtles towards an abrupt ending. 

 

Yet the sheer complexity makes it seem more real somehow. Alanna bonding Rand, went nowhere, but it was always there, threatening to have an effect and did sort of eventually. Hundreds of those threads wove about as if RJ was the Wheel itself, the broad sweep of different cultures, the internal politics of so many different factions, 3,000 years of history, 2,700 named characters I think?, it comes together into something that is way more than any one of its parts. 

 

In my humble opinion, of course.

[Scarloc99]

21 hours ago, Asthereal said:

What keeps some of us coming back to the series is quite simple: quality.

Quality in the worldbuilding, characters, storylines and writing style.

 

But let's face it: the Wheel of Time is not for everyone. Some get stuck on the slower pace, some dislike the repetitive descriptions, some don't click with the often stubborn and slow-to-learn characters, some don't appreciate the many subplots and some abandon the series because it wasn't finished by the author who started it. WoT isn't perfect, and I completely understand if people hate it. But...

 

I've never seen stronger character arcs than in WoT. Rand and Egwene especially have incredible journeys. I've never seen a magic system this clear but still wonderous. I've never seen a world this rich but still completely comprehensible. And the only series I know that comes close to, might even match, the level of storytelling from WoT will probably never be finished. Sure, Jordan passed away and was unable to finish the series himself, but we did get an ending, and the ending is absolutely worth it despite the author change. And I'm saying this fully aware that Sanderson is almost the opposite to Jordan in terms of writing style.

 

There's just so much to love about WoT, and if you truely let it in, it can burrow in your heart like a tick. For me personally, I don't think anything else will be able to push past WoT, ever. 🙂 

Love that you love it like that, like I say I see all the flaws, I have seen stronger character arcs in many other books, I have seen better prose and writing structure, less repetition of both plot ideas and the way the story is told. I personally see the magic system as confused and with no structure, for me RJ and BS basically made it up as they went along in terms of what weaves could do, with a "what makes sense now" aspect. His world building, the politics and long term history of the world as it came out of the breaking is really well put together, the story of the Aiel is for me one of the best bits of lore in fantasy. 

I have read the series start to finish I think 8-12 times now over the what 20 years I have been reading it, and I have read each of the individual books, either as small sets or individually many many times more, at the start of the year I re read the Brandon Sanderson 3 3 times as a trilogy back to back to back and ended up feeling it contains some of the worst fantasy fiction I have read as a whole yes I am glad we got an end, but I am finding myself comparing parts (not all) of those final 3 to the end of GOT and thinking GOT did it better, which I should never be able to say about anything lol.

But despite all these massive flaws I personally see in the writing style, the story telling and some of the arcs I still feel that I will be picking it up and re reading it again end to end, and I can't say that about much else. 

[Yamezt]

8 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

I personally see the magic system as confused and with no structure, for me RJ and BS basically made it up as they went along in terms of what weaves could do, with a "what makes sense now" aspect.

 

I was actually going to disagree at first - because there are a lot of details in channelling. But thinking about it - you are right.

 

Power levels get skewed by talents - which in itself is quite fudgey: Channelers can be strong in one or a few flows of the one power (eg. Egwene/Leanne with earth) which then translate to good at certain other weaves (eg earth leads to good at ability/speed in making cuendillar). Or Channellers can be strong in a specific weave (healing/gateway/shielding).

[Aan-Alone]

I don't remember exactly when I started. Somewhere early 90's. Got first half of TEoTW for free and was instantly hooked. I enjoyed it all. Some parts more than others at first, but over time, the distinctions fade.

Why do I enjoy it so? I relate with so many of the characters, the situations they're in. Not completely, but I see pieces of myself everywhere. And the emotions evoked. Nothing else comes close, besides actual RL interactions. No other book series, movie, TV show, gam, piece of music, etc. I will get choked up thinking about certain scenes, scenes I haven't read in years. My voice will waver and my eyes get misty trying to talk about WoT stuff with people. And no, it has not helped me find converts. Sadly.

Why does WoT do this to/for me?

Why is water wet? Why do birds fly? Why do fish swim?

This is why I keep returning to Randland.

[Elgee]

So beautifully put, Aan-Alone!! *wipes a tear*

[Aan-Alone]

7 hours ago, Elgee said:

So beautifully put, Aan-Alone!! *wipes a tear*

I was truly speaking from the heart. This series touches me, and I suspect many others, in a way nothing else does. Or sadly ever will.

I've read bunches of your posts over various threads. Yours, and many others here, sometimes make me feel as if I'm writing at a 3rd grade level. You're all very eloquent. So thanks for the compliment.

[Elgee]

6 hours ago, Aan-Alone said:

sometimes make me feel as if I'm writing at a 3rd grade level

 

OMW definitely not! You know where the commas and fullstops go, and all! *grins*

 

But seriously, you're exactly right (IMHO) when you say this series touches some of us like nothing else does or ever will. I even joined Dragonmount, which is not something I thought I'd ever do, and which no other book, series, show or movie has done.