Rand should not be a master swordsman in season 2

[Scarloc99]

I have seen many bemoan the fact that Rand has not done any sword training yet because he needs to be a master swordsman to face off with Turak in season 2.
 

I agree I hoped for some fight training by now but ot seems people don’t get that fight scene at all, and as a result are going to be disappointed. Rand in book 2 is not a blade master by any stretch, in fact he wins that fight by luck not skill. 
 

If you actually re read the fight initially he is played with, toyed, partly because Turak wants to see how good a blade master in Randland really is, wants to measure him up, see his flows. Rand sees very quickly he is out classed, massively. He gets owned, and then, he “cheats” he reaches into the void and uses his superpowers, along with a big dose of luck (his other superpower), to kill Turak. 
 

Part of me really hopes that in the tv show we see this played out almost comically, Turak slips on spilt water, or trips on his cloak to land on Rand’s sword, because it is the first real moment in the book we get where we see the pattern is not going to let Rand die a stupid death, and yet people seem to have converted that into becoming convinced that Rand is actually a blade master by the time he fights that battle. He isn’t, and wining it doesn’t make him one either, not in terms of skill at least. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Here is me not remembering well, I thought he was being completely outclassed by Turak because he refused to enter the void, but when he did he put up a much better fight, "forcing Turak to frown in concentration". I wonder if I made that quote up 🙂 So yes, while he was not blademaster quality yet, he was signposting his way to become one.

 

In show, unless they are just going to ignore it, the only way I can think of him gaining skill with the sword is by channeling his inner LTT, but that would also seem to be a very problematic thing, unless they go whole hog which it seems far to early for. 

[Samt]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

If you actually re read the fight initially he is played with, toyed, partly because Turak wants to see how good a blade master in Randland really is, wants to measure him up, see his flows. Rand sees very quickly he is out classed, massively. He gets owned, and then, he “cheats” he reaches into the void and uses his superpowers, along with a big dose of luck (his other superpower), to kill Turak. 

The flame and the void is a concentration technique that Tam taught Rand.  It is not fundamentally something that only channelers do and Rand's use of it in this instance is not connected to the one power.  It is presumably something that Tam learned as part of his blademaster training and used throughout his career as a blademaster.    It's a fundamental skill that is used by many (and perhaps most) blademasters.  It is also an important part of the sword training that Lan gives Rand.  In other words, it's not "cheating."

 

Rand reaching the void is a narrative way of showing that Rand was able to remember his training and use it to come out on top.  That's exactly why this showdown doesn't work if Rand hasn't been trained.   

[mogi68]

Quote

Here is me not remembering well, I thought he was being completely outclassed by Turak because he refused to enter the void, but when he did he put up a much better fight, "forcing Turak to frown in concentration". I wonder if I made that quote up

 

 

No, you remembered correctly!

Quote

There was disappointment on the High Lord's face. He stepped back with a gesture of disgust. "Where did you find that blade, boy? Or do they here truly award the heron to those no more skilled than you? No matter. Make your peace. It is time to die." He came on again.

The void enveloped Rand. Saidin flowed toward him, glowing with the promise of the One Power, but he ignored it. It was no more difficult than ignoring a barbed thorn twisting in his flesh. He refused to be filled with the Power, refused to be one with the male half of the True Source. He was one with the sword in his hands, one with the floor beneath his feet, one with the walls. One with Turak.

He recognized the forms the High Lord used; they were a little different from what he had been taught, but not enough. The Swallow Takes Flight met Parting the Silk. Moon on the Water met The Wood Grouse Dances. Ribbon in the Air met Stones Falling From the Cliff. They moved about the room as in a dance, and their music was steel against steel.

Disappointment and disgust faded from Turak's dark eyes, replaced by surprise, then concentration. Sweat appeared on the High Lord's face as he pressed Rand harder. Lightning of Three Prongs met Leaf on the Breeze.

 

 

I think that they will have Rand "cheat" with the power, either intentionally or unintentionally. It's the only way that he could conceivably defeat Turak at this point in the series. Even if Lan appears in Cairhien in E6 and trained him with the sword and they traveled on foot to Toman Head, I think it would a hard sell.

 

I wonder how the scene will be set up (if they do indeed have a duel). From the S2 trailer it looks like Rand just saunters up to the keep unimpeded

 

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by mogi68
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[Elder_Haman]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

In show, unless they are just going to ignore it, the only way I can think of him gaining skill with the sword is by channeling his inner LTT, but that would also seem to be a very problematic thing, unless they go whole hog which it seems far to early for.

Or a long time jump. You can make a lot of mileage showing a scene of him beginning training. Cut. Time jump. New training scene where he is greatly improved. 

[Scarloc99]

10 minutes ago, Samt said:

The flame and the void is a concentration technique that Tam taught Rand.  It is not fundamentally something that only channelers do and Rand's use of it in this instance is not connected to the one power.  It is presumably something that Tam learned as part of his blademaster training and used throughout his career as a blademaster.    It's a fundamental skill that is used by many (and perhaps most) blademasters.  It is also an important part of the sword training that Lan gives Rand.  In other words, it's not "cheating."

 

Rand reaching the void is a narrative way of showing that Rand was able to remember his training and use it to come out on top.  That's exactly why this showdown doesn't work if Rand hasn't been trained.   

The flame and the Void is also how Rand controlled his access to the one power at the start of the books, so I always saw this as him using the power to become much better 

[Scarloc99]

1 hour ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Here is me not remembering well, I thought he was being completely outclassed by Turak because he refused to enter the void, but when he did he put up a much better fight, "forcing Turak to frown in concentration". I wonder if I made that quote up 🙂 So yes, while he was not blademaster quality yet, he was signposting his way to become one.

 

In show, unless they are just going to ignore it, the only way I can think of him gaining skill with the sword is by channeling his inner LTT, but that would also seem to be a very problematic thing, unless they go whole hog which it seems far to early for. 

The flame and the void was how Rand managed to focus the one power initially so I always saw this as him tapping into the one power to become better, yes Turak had to concentrate suddenly but again I saw that like Rand going from a very low level, to suddenly getting faster and stronger, almost as if a mystical force was flowing through his body making Turak think a bit. 

[Scarloc99]

11 minutes ago, mogi68 said:

 

 

No, you remembered correctly!

 

 

I think that they will have Rand "cheat" with the power, either intentionally or unintentionally. It's the only way that he could conceivably defeat Turak at this point in the series. Even if Lan appears in Cairhien in E6 and trained him with the sword and they traveled on foot to Toman Head, I think it would a hard sell.

 

I wonder how the scene will be set up (if they do indeed have a duel). From the S2 trailer it looks like Rand just saunters up to the keep unimpeded

 

 

Even though he ignires the power I always saw it having an effect on him, that is how I have always read this scene the 20 or so times I have read the book, I can see however how someone could take it the other way. 

[Elder_Haman]

Having him learn about the Void from Logain would be pretty cool. He could be training both with the sword and the power as he travels toward Falme. Logain teaches him the Void to control his urges and then he puts two and two together during his fight with Turak.

 

[Samt]

16 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

The flame and the void was how Rand managed to focus the one power initially so I always saw this as him tapping into the one power to become better, yes Turak had to concentrate suddenly but again I saw that like Rand going from a very low level, to suddenly getting faster and stronger, almost as if a mystical force was flowing through his body making Turak think a bit. 

You're reading things into it that aren't there.  It explicitly states that he refuses to use the one power.  It's also clear that both Tam and Lan think the flame and the void is an important part of learning to use a sword, so it's entirely logical that using this technique would make Rand better at swordfighting without the one power coming into play.  

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

14 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Even though he ignires the power I always saw it having an effect on him, that is how I have always read this scene the 20 or so times I have read the book, I can see however how someone could take it the other way. 

I would have said it was simply that without the oneness, he was just not as good, just as if he was shooting arrows. He became one with sword, with Turak, calmed his nerves and found peace. I thought the book was quite explicit, but that is the great thing about books is that the words are only the seed of what happens in your mind.

[Samt]

13 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Having him learn about the Void from Logain would be pretty cool. He could be training both with the sword and the power as he travels toward Falme. Logain teaches him the Void to control his urges and then he puts two and two together during his fight with Turak.

 

I like the fact that there are tons of mental focus powers that are used by channelers but aren't directly related to the one power and can theoretically be used by others (and it some cases are used by others).  Things like the flame and the void, controlling the warder bond, and ignoring temperature are all powers that anybody can learn.   Controlling your own mind is the pathway to power, regardless of who you are.  Making it so only channelers can do it takes that away.  

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Samt said:

Controlling your own mind is the pathway to power, regardless of who you are. 

This is the lesson Rand needs to learn above all, yes? 

[Skipp]

But is it not odd that only after 2 months of training Rand can defeat a blademaster?  I always figured there was something more going on there. An assumption I've seen else where is that Rand's innate skill with the blade is a bleed over from LTT.

 

Tough to say either way.

[Mirefox]

Rand definitely had some Ta’veren luck in the books coupled with Turok just toying with him.

 

However, in the book we were introduced to Rand’a concentration technique very early and it became central both to his channeling and his swordplay.  While he had to learn plenty on the fly, he had a foundation within which to work.  I wish they had introduced the concept in the show, maybe with a visual cue like Rand going still or breathing deep or something to show that he was tapping in to some sort of training he had had his whole life.

 

I don’t know how they are going to portray it in the show but I hope they don’t use the flashback technique to show that he’s been training all along because they already used that storytelling technique in season 1.  Maybe he can get help in the fight from anyone else who is in Falme?

[SBroc]

Is it for sure that Rand will fight and defeat Turak here?  I know how the books are written but I find this would be a way to re-introduce how skilled Lan is and also get him out of his depression if he came in and saved Moraine and people realized she couldn't channel.  Surely seeing Aes S. chained like animals would piss her off.

[Elder_Haman]

24 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

I wish they had introduced the concept in the show,

They actually did in E7 where Rand is practicing archery. When Egwene is around he is not on target. Then he focuses and there was a little visual effect signifying his concentration which I took to be their effort at depicting Rand finding the void.

[Mirefox]

13 minutes ago, SBroc said:

Is it for sure that Rand will fight and defeat Turak here?  I know how the books are written but I find this would be a way to re-introduce how skilled Lan is and also get him out of his depression if he came in and saved Moraine and people realized she couldn't channel.  Surely seeing Aes S. chained like animals would piss her off.

I don’t think that Rand winning the fight is a major enough plot point that it can’t be changed for the show.  Rand’s got big enough fight coming up that they could pass the Turak fight on to someone else. 

[Cipher]

2 hours ago, Scarloc99 said:

The flame and the void was how Rand managed to focus the one power initially so I always saw this as him tapping into the one power to become better, yes Turak had to concentrate suddenly but again I saw that like Rand going from a very low level, to suddenly getting faster and stronger, almost as if a mystical force was flowing through his body making Turak think a bit. 

Rand was beginning to get sick when he would channel if I remember correctly and did not want to use the void because it was tied to use of the power for him.

 

But as another said the void was definitely not cheating.  When I read that scene last time I looked for any hint of OP use and I didn’t notice any.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Cipher

[Cipher]

I kind of liken Rand’s flame and the void usage to Prince Adam saying, “by the power of Grayskull!”

[Mirefox]

29 minutes ago, Cipher said:

Rand was beginning to get sick when he would channel if I remember correctly and did not want to use the void because it was tied to use of the power for him.

 

But as another said the void was definitely not cheating.  When I read that scene last time I looked for any hint of OP use and I didn’t notice any.

The flame/void and channeling are mutually exclusive.  It was a focusing technique that Rand learned at a young age and had he never been able to channel it would still be something he would use to center himself to sword fight.  Likewise, channeling had nothing to do with the flame and void; the latter was merely a way for Rand to focus and take control.  As he becomes more proficient with the use of the One Power he uses the flame and void less and less until channeling is simply instinctual.

[Cipher]

43 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

The flame/void and channeling are mutually exclusive.  It was a focusing technique that Rand learned at a young age and had he never been able to channel it would still be something he would use to center himself to sword fight.  Likewise, channeling had nothing to do with the flame and void; the latter was merely a way for Rand to focus and take control.  As he becomes more proficient with the use of the One Power he uses the flame and void less and less until channeling is simply instinctual.

That is not what I remember. I thought Rand used the flame/void early on to learn how to embrace the source. But I could be wrong.

[Mirefox]

34 minutes ago, Cipher said:

That is not what I remember. I thought Rand used the flame/void early on to learn how to embrace the source. But I could be wrong.

He did.  I’m simply saying that even though he used it as a way to focus to embrace the source, he was using it as a way to focus long before being able to channel.  It was a mental exercise that lent itself to channeling but wasn’t required for him to channel nor was it used solely for channeling.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

7 hours ago, Mirefox said:

He did.  I’m simply saying that even though he used it as a way to focus to embrace the source, he was using it as a way to focus long before being able to channel.  It was a mental exercise that lent itself to channeling but wasn’t required for him to channel nor was it used solely for channeling.

Absolutely, Tam taught him it for archery, Lan brings it up for weapon use in general, iirc, to all the EF boys.

 

But he did need it to channel, as it is part of the process of seizing the source. However, the fact that he had already mastered the Oneness means that we did not have to watch him fumble about again and again like some Novice with her exercises, but could leap straight into him not being able to control it.

[DaddyFinn]

4 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Lan brings it up for weapon use in general, iirc, to all the EF boys.

I don't recall Mat and Perrin ever using it in any scenario which is wild given their skill in combat